QT Tank not cycling?

Tripwyr · 03/02/2013, 05:27 PM

I recently set up both a 20L DT and a 5.5 gallon QT tank. The DT is cycling fine, but the QT tank seems to just be building and building ammonia without any nitrites.

The tank is a standard 5.5 with a maxijet 400 in powerhead mode and a sponge filter driven by an air pump. I have a few pieces of PVC in the tank.

I put 1 piece of (defrosted) frozen shrimp into the tank until the ammonia reached 4 PPM, then took it out. Ammonia continued to slowly rise due to small (almost invisible) pieces of shrimp which had broken off. Ammonia rose to 8 PPM, and I am no longer able to test it as this is the high end of the API test. I am currently mixing water for a water change in the hopes of bringing it back within testable range.

Is it possible that the tank is not cycling because the ammonia has risen too high? Or is an air driven sponge filter simply not sufficient?

I know that it is not a test issue as the display tank is cycling normally. I may pick up a new aquaclear 20 tomorrow and just run filter floss instead.

Cymonous · 03/02/2013, 06:27 PM

How long has the QT been cycling? You do have a lot of ammonia and that small sponge will take some time to develop the bacteria to process the ammonia. I would not bother with a water change and just wait it out.

kismetsh · 03/02/2013, 06:46 PM

An extremely high ammonia level can stall a cycle. I would do a 50% water change.

wooden_reefer · 03/02/2013, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tripwyr

I recently set up both a 20L DT and a 5.5 gallon QT tank. The DT is cycling fine, but the QT tank seems to just be building and building ammonia without any nitrites.

The tank is a standard 5.5 with a maxijet 400 in powerhead mode and a sponge filter driven by an air pump. I have a few pieces of PVC in the tank.

I put 1 piece of (defrosted) frozen shrimp into the tank until the ammonia reached 4 PPM, then took it out. Ammonia continued to slowly rise due to small (almost invisible) pieces of shrimp which had broken off. Ammonia rose to 8 PPM, and I am no longer able to test it as this is the high end of the API test. I am currently mixing water for a water change in the hopes of bringing it back within testable range.

Is it possible that the tank is not cycling because the ammonia has risen too high? Or is an air driven sponge filter simply not sufficient?

I know that it is not a test issue as the display tank is cycling normally. I may pick up a new aquaclear 20 tomorrow and just run filter floss instead.

Your ammonia is not too high.

If you have enough ammonai, bacteria seeds, aeration, circulation, warmth, and enough medium for sites of bacterial growth, and not a drug that harms the bacteria, you will have a cycle.

What bacteria seeds have you added?

kismetsh · 03/02/2013, 08:00 PM

I guess "too high" is a matter of opinion. I know Dr Tim is one of the experts who state that ammonia levels above 5 ppm can stall the cycle. Considering he sells an ammonia product to cycle with, there would seem to be at least a mild incentive for him to encourage *higher* concentrations.

I have cycled a number of tanks, my only relevant personal experience was one tank where I made an error and put the ammonia over 8 ppm. The cycle did stall and it took longer to cycle than any other tank I've ever had. That certainly isn't scientific proof of anything, but take it for what it's worth.

Tripwyr · 03/02/2013, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymonous

How long has the QT been cycling? You do have a lot of ammonia and that small sponge will take some time to develop the bacteria to process the ammonia. I would not bother with a water change and just wait it out.

About 10 days now. My DT started seeing Nitrite 4 days ago.

Quote:

What bacteria seeds have you added?

Nothing, the bacteria is readily available in the air around us. Seeds should only speed it up, they're not necessary for it to happen.

I think I'll do a water change and just leave the sponge filter.

wooden_reefer · 03/02/2013, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kismetsh

I guess "too high" is a matter of opinion. I know Dr Tim is one of the experts who state that ammonia levels above 5 ppm can stall the cycle. Considering he sells an ammonia product to cycle with, there would seem to be at least a mild incentive for him to encourage *higher* concentrations.

I have cycled a number of tanks, my only relevant personal experience was one tank where I made an error and put the ammonia over 8 ppm. The cycle did stall and it took longer to cycle than any other tank I've ever had. That certainly isn't scientific proof of anything, but take it for what it's worth.

Ammonia can be too high, but 5 ppm is not.

Ammonia too high can have toxic effect

I routinely use more than 5 ppm.

Cymonous · 03/02/2013, 09:27 PM

I sometimes just wonder....why?

You don't need to do a water change. A little high ppm of Ammonia is not going to "stall" a cycle. If you take out too much ammonia, you may not cycle your medium properly and the bacteria may not be able to handle the ammonia produced by your fish.

kismetsh · 03/02/2013, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymonous

I sometimes just wonder....why?

You don't need to do a water change. A little high ppm of Ammonia is not going to "stall" a cycle. If you take out too much ammonia, you may not cycle your medium properly and the bacteria may not be able to handle the ammonia produced by your fish.

If ammonia is 8 ppm a 50% water change would only bring it down to 4 ppm which is still plenty high. Are you suggesting that 4 ppm ammonia won't cycle a tank? Really? (In fact if you reread OP's post his ammonia is off the charts so it is higher than 8 ppm.)

I don't think the fact that "too high" ammonia can stall a cycle is that controversial, I guess the only debate concerns "how high is too high". I've not seen any controlled studies that establish the exact borderline, but absent any evidence to the contrary I feel confident following the advice of Dr Tim (BTW, he isn't the only person who says this) who recommends staying at or below 5 ppm.

http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/resour...g/how-to-start

"The high ammonia or nitrite concentration (which by the way can sometimes occur in the shrimp method) is a problem because high levels of ammonia or nitrite inhibit the nitrifying bacteria. You need to change the water to reduce the ammonia and nitrite to get the cycle going again.

Also, if you decided not to use our Live Nitrifying Bacteria in the beginning and now want to add some to speed up the process, you need to make sure the ammonia and nitrite concentrations are under 5 mg/L-N before adding the One & Only Live Nitrifying bacteria.

The other big problem is that the cycling process seems to stall with ammonia or nitrite not dropping anymore. Usually this is due to a low pH value (less than 7.0). The conversion of the ammonia and nitrite by the bacteria naturally produces an acid that will lower the water pH. If the pH gets too low, however, the nitrification (cycling) process will stop. So if you add a lot of ammonia over the course of a week and get the cycling cranking, you can actually cause the pH to drop to a low value and ‘stall’ the entire process. The way to get the cycling going again is to simply do a 25 to 20% water change. This will increase the pH and usually gets the cycling process going again."

kismetsh · 03/02/2013, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wooden_reefer

Ammonia can be too high, but 5 ppm is not.

Ammonia too high can have toxic effect

I routinely use more than 5 ppm.

Just curious, how high do you normally go?

wooden_reefer · 03/02/2013, 09:48 PM

Buffer effect of crush coral or LR will start to kick in to prevent too big a ph drop.

8 ppm is about the white of one egg in 25 gals of water. This is OK.

Going higher is also pointless.

Don't worry too much; there is a wide range of effectiveness.

If you do not plan to change the water after cycle, it is best to not use too much ammonia to age the water too much.

Cymonous · 03/02/2013, 10:05 PM

Kismetch, don't try to start a debate when you don't have facts. The OP never said how much of a water change he was going to do. I just simply said to not do too much of a water change. So yes, he could take out too much water and decrease the ammonia below what anyone may want for a cycle. So yes, Really.

kismetsh · 03/02/2013, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymonous

Kismetch, don't try to start a debate when you don't have facts. The OP never said how much of a water change he was going to do. I just simply said to not do too much of a water change. So yes, he could take out too much water and decrease the ammonia below what anyone may want for a cycle. So yes, Really.

You said not to do a water change, no mention at all of not doing "too much" of one. Maybe you meant to say that but it didn't make it in the actual post. I can identify, sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain.

Since I suggested a 50 percent change and OP then said he would do a water change I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that was what he was planning. That is what I based my numbers on. Certainly a 100 percent change would be a bad idea.

bnumair · 03/03/2013, 12:02 AM

i usually goto 2ppm on ammonia and take the shrimp out. in OP's case best to do few water changes and bring ammonia down under 5ppm then wait the cycle out.

SushiGirl · 03/03/2013, 01:21 AM

The point of the post is not some off topic debate over too high ammonia & water changes.

Tripwyr, there is much less surface area in the QT for the bacteria to colonize than there is in a tank with sand and rock. If you want to change some water that's fine, it's not going to hurt the bacteria any. For a QT you're not really going to "finish" a cycle like in a tank with rock & sand. We had ammonia for several months in a QT with a filter and some acrylic frag racks in it. It did ok with just corals for a while until we decided to add a couple fish instead of just corals. We just kept Amquel on hand and did very frequent water changes. We eventually added some dragon's breath and another macro algae to it after treatment so we could sell the algae. With the extra suface area we've had no problems since & have one fish living in there full time for quite a while until we get another tank set up.

Bottom line is, it's a quarantine tank with little surface area. It's not really ever going to cycle. You will have to do frequent, maybe daily, water changes & keep something like Amquel on hand when you have fish in there.

Tripwyr · 03/03/2013, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SushiGirl

The point of the post is not some off topic debate over too high ammonia & water changes.

Tripwyr, there is much less surface area in the QT for the bacteria to colonize than there is in a tank with sand and rock. If you want to change some water that's fine, it's not going to hurt the bacteria any. For a QT you're not really going to "finish" a cycle like in a tank with rock & sand. We had ammonia for several months in a QT with a filter and some acrylic frag racks in it. It did ok with just corals for a while until we decided to add a couple fish instead of just corals. We just kept Amquel on hand and did very frequent water changes. We eventually added some dragon's breath and another macro algae to it after treatment so we could sell the algae. With the extra suface area we've had no problems since & have one fish living in there full time for quite a while until we get another tank set up.

Bottom line is, it's a quarantine tank with little surface area. It's not really ever going to cycle. You will have to do frequent, maybe daily, water changes & keep something like Amquel on hand when you have fish in there.

That is good to know. I think the consensus I have come to from this thread is that changing the water down to testable levels of ammonia would be ideal.

If the tank is unlikely to ever cycle, how would I determine when it is safe to add fish? I have a fairly large bottle of Prime on hand, and I can do daily water changes if needed.

EDIT: Also going to test pH. Didn't realize that may cause the cycle to stop.

SushiGirl · 03/03/2013, 09:00 AM

It will cycle to the extent that your sponge filter can handle, but it will definitely spike ammonia when you add fish, so be prepared for that. That's what happened with ours, and it did take longer to drop ammonia than the tank we were cycling simultaneously. We ended up putting a small piece of rock in the filter chamber & one in the tank (ping pong ball size and smaller) to get to zero ammonia. Of course, that will die if we ever use it as a treatment tank, but I've never had to treat fish so it's not been an issue so far.

Tripwyr · 03/03/2013, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SushiGirl

It will cycle to the extent that your sponge filter can handle, but it will definitely spike ammonia when you add fish, so be prepared for that. That's what happened with ours, and it did take longer to drop ammonia than the tank we were cycling simultaneously. We ended up putting a small piece of rock in the filter chamber & one in the tank (ping pong ball size and smaller) to get to zero ammonia. Of course, that will die if we ever use it as a treatment tank, but I've never had to treat fish so it's not been an issue so far.

That actually isn't a bad idea. I have a couple pieces of live rock rubble sitting in the converted refugium, so I may just remove those. pH tested 7.8 on both tanks, so it shouldn't be affecting the cycle.

michfish5 · 07/04/2013, 12:11 PM

The same thing just happened to me cycling with a shrimp in a 10 gallon QT. My NH3 went from .5 to 8ppm over a two day period. My pH dropped from 8.2 to 7.8. On Day 4 my NH3 is still around 8 so I think I am going to do a 50% WC and see what happens.

drej424 · 07/04/2013, 02:31 PM

When I'm cycling a new tank, I use water from an established tank instead of all newly mixed saltwater. I save the water from a water change and then add about 50% new water. Another tip I learned from this forum is to keep a sponge in the sump of an established tank. That helps to cycle the new tank.

03/02/2013, 05:27 PM	#1
Tripwyr Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 60	QT Tank not cycling? I recently set up both a 20L DT and a 5.5 gallon QT tank. The DT is cycling fine, but the QT tank seems to just be building and building ammonia without any nitrites. The tank is a standard 5.5 with a maxijet 400 in powerhead mode and a sponge filter driven by an air pump. I have a few pieces of PVC in the tank. I put 1 piece of (defrosted) frozen shrimp into the tank until the ammonia reached 4 PPM, then took it out. Ammonia continued to slowly rise due to small (almost invisible) pieces of shrimp which had broken off. Ammonia rose to 8 PPM, and I am no longer able to test it as this is the high end of the API test. I am currently mixing water for a water change in the hopes of bringing it back within testable range. Is it possible that the tank is not cycling because the ammonia has risen too high? Or is an air driven sponge filter simply not sufficient? I know that it is not a test issue as the display tank is cycling normally. I may pick up a new aquaclear 20 tomorrow and just run filter floss instead.

03/02/2013, 06:27 PM	#2
Cymonous My Clown Attacks Me Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,105	How long has the QT been cycling? You do have a lot of ammonia and that small sponge will take some time to develop the bacteria to process the ammonia. I would not bother with a water change and just wait it out. __________________ 100 Gallon Long with 20L sump 10 Gallon Office Tank Current Tank Info: 2 False Percula Clowns, One Spot Foxface, Diamond Watchman Goby, Yellow Tail Damsel, Engineer Goby

03/02/2013, 06:46 PM	#3
kismetsh Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NC Posts: 169	An extremely high ammonia level can stall a cycle. I would do a 50% water change. __________________ KC Current Tank Info: 29g, attached 20g display refugium/macro tank

03/02/2013, 08:00 PM	#5
kismetsh Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NC Posts: 169	I guess "too high" is a matter of opinion. I know Dr Tim is one of the experts who state that ammonia levels above 5 ppm can stall the cycle. Considering he sells an ammonia product to cycle with, there would seem to be at least a mild incentive for him to encourage higher concentrations. I have cycled a number of tanks, my only relevant personal experience was one tank where I made an error and put the ammonia over 8 ppm. The cycle did stall and it took longer to cycle than any other tank I've ever had. That certainly isn't scientific proof of anything, but take it for what it's worth. __________________ KC Current Tank Info: 29g, attached 20g display refugium/macro tank

03/02/2013, 09:27 PM	#8
Cymonous My Clown Attacks Me Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,105	I sometimes just wonder....why? You don't need to do a water change. A little high ppm of Ammonia is not going to "stall" a cycle. If you take out too much ammonia, you may not cycle your medium properly and the bacteria may not be able to handle the ammonia produced by your fish. __________________ 100 Gallon Long with 20L sump 10 Gallon Office Tank Current Tank Info: 2 False Percula Clowns, One Spot Foxface, Diamond Watchman Goby, Yellow Tail Damsel, Engineer Goby

03/02/2013, 09:48 PM	#11
wooden_reefer Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 4,670	Buffer effect of crush coral or LR will start to kick in to prevent too big a ph drop. 8 ppm is about the white of one egg in 25 gals of water. This is OK. Going higher is also pointless. Don't worry too much; there is a wide range of effectiveness. If you do not plan to change the water after cycle, it is best to not use too much ammonia to age the water too much.

03/02/2013, 10:05 PM	#12
Cymonous My Clown Attacks Me Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,105	Kismetch, don't try to start a debate when you don't have facts. The OP never said how much of a water change he was going to do. I just simply said to not do too much of a water change. So yes, he could take out too much water and decrease the ammonia below what anyone may want for a cycle. So yes, Really. __________________ 100 Gallon Long with 20L sump 10 Gallon Office Tank Current Tank Info: 2 False Percula Clowns, One Spot Foxface, Diamond Watchman Goby, Yellow Tail Damsel, Engineer Goby

03/03/2013, 12:02 AM	#14
bnumair Dr. Reef at ur service Join Date: May 2009 Location: Tulsa, Ok, USA Posts: 7,751 Blog Entries: 15	i usually goto 2ppm on ammonia and take the shrimp out. in OP's case best to do few water changes and bring ammonia down under 5ppm then wait the cycle out. __________________ Water Quality: NO3 0,Phos 0,Cal 440,Alk 7.5,Mag 1300 "Reef Fast, You Crash, Reef Slow, You Pass" Mike's Reef 3:16 Current Tank Info: 350g DT,95g sump, 50g Frag tank, 4800gph return 4x Sea swirls. 6x AI Vega Color. 200# Pukani rock, dual recirculating skimmer, Biopellet, GFO Carbon rx's, Cal rx. Closed loop. 1.5hp chiller, genesis renew. Apex & RKE

03/03/2013, 01:21 AM	#15
SushiGirl Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Fort Worth, TX USA Posts: 8,267	The point of the post is not some off topic debate over too high ammonia & water changes. Tripwyr, there is much less surface area in the QT for the bacteria to colonize than there is in a tank with sand and rock. If you want to change some water that's fine, it's not going to hurt the bacteria any. For a QT you're not really going to "finish" a cycle like in a tank with rock & sand. We had ammonia for several months in a QT with a filter and some acrylic frag racks in it. It did ok with just corals for a while until we decided to add a couple fish instead of just corals. We just kept Amquel on hand and did very frequent water changes. We eventually added some dragon's breath and another macro algae to it after treatment so we could sell the algae. With the extra suface area we've had no problems since & have one fish living in there full time for quite a while until we get another tank set up. Bottom line is, it's a quarantine tank with little surface area. It's not really ever going to cycle. You will have to do frequent, maybe daily, water changes & keep something like Amquel on hand when you have fish in there. __________________ Visit my Homepage or "My Albums" (via Profile) for hitchhiker pics. Current Tank Info: 55g softy/LPS tank & 20L reef tank

03/03/2013, 09:00 AM	#17
SushiGirl Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Fort Worth, TX USA Posts: 8,267	It will cycle to the extent that your sponge filter can handle, but it will definitely spike ammonia when you add fish, so be prepared for that. That's what happened with ours, and it did take longer to drop ammonia than the tank we were cycling simultaneously. We ended up putting a small piece of rock in the filter chamber & one in the tank (ping pong ball size and smaller) to get to zero ammonia. Of course, that will die if we ever use it as a treatment tank, but I've never had to treat fish so it's not been an issue so far. __________________ Visit my Homepage or "My Albums" (via Profile) for hitchhiker pics. Current Tank Info: 55g softy/LPS tank & 20L reef tank

07/04/2013, 12:11 PM	#19
michfish5 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 167	The same thing just happened to me cycling with a shrimp in a 10 gallon QT. My NH3 went from .5 to 8ppm over a two day period. My pH dropped from 8.2 to 7.8. On Day 4 my NH3 is still around 8 so I think I am going to do a 50% WC and see what happens.

07/04/2013, 02:31 PM	#20
drej424 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: LI, NY Posts: 438	When I'm cycling a new tank, I use water from an established tank instead of all newly mixed saltwater. I save the water from a water change and then add about 50% new water. Another tip I learned from this forum is to keep a sponge in the sump of an established tank. That helps to cycle the new tank.