MH vs. led (growth only)

kenc87 · 03/08/2013, 10:39 PM

As stated, I'm aware that LEDs use less power and run cooler. I personally don't care about those as I run a chiller and don't worry bout a few more dollars a month in electric. My main concern is the growth of sps coral under these light systems. Please post your experiences

dthorn · 03/09/2013, 03:51 AM

Not really what you're looking for, but you seem to be missing what I would consider the number one reason for leds. Control! The ability to change appearance to exactly what you want any time, really unique ramping shedules that put on a "show". Complete control of output let's you set them to exactly what you and your corals like.

I'm just a noob with a vega color I'm in love with, growth has been great with lps. Lots of others out there showing great sps growth pics under leds and they keep getting better where halides stay the same. People are also having decent results with older technology leds as far as growth. It's not a question of whether or not leds are better. They are the future of reefing, just a question of when everyone is going to jump and when we will have the "best" leds for reef tanks.

5w leds fry corals effortlessly, so the power is there if used and focused properly. I'm hearing about higher watt leds that are even better, but will they actually be better or just fry more corals faster. I worked up to 100% on my vega with no problems aside from some bleached tips on a spaghetti leather 3 or 4 inches below water line. Over time though, I had to turn them down because coral colors were losing intensity, but were happy. I'm sure you'll get some good replies just thought i'd add my two cents. Happy reefing!

kenc87 · 03/09/2013, 05:54 AM

I guess my concern is I have never seen in person a led lit sps dominant tank that can compete with mh lit sps tanks. I currently had a kessil a150 on my frag tank and got two birdsnest frags at the same time. I put one in my frag tank and the other in my display under mh/t5 and the growth in my display is twice what I'm getting from my kessil. I'm interested in the reefbreeders lights but I want to make sure I can get growth that is as good or better than mh. Until then I don't care if I have to pay more in electric and don't have as much control.

d3hree · 03/09/2013, 06:14 AM

if youre not bothered about power savings, bulb changes, sunrise, sunset, lightning storms controlled by your iphone or even heat then leds fall short IMO. If your only concern is sps colour and growth then MH with T5 suppliment is the only form of lighting to consider.

Typlus5 · 03/09/2013, 06:16 AM

I thought this was a fair comparison. My only issue is they trying to match the color of the 20k bulbs and are leaving some intensity in the bank.
http://www.vividaquariums.com/aquari...Experiment.asp

blakeorme · 03/09/2013, 06:27 AM

Check out the new ATI Powermodule LED/T5 combo. Just pre-ordered a 48" for my new build.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Epeie...%3DEpeie4lspik

sirreal63 · 03/09/2013, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Not really what you're looking for, but you seem to be missing what I would consider the number one reason for leds. Control! The ability to change appearance to exactly what you want any time, really unique ramping shedules that put on a "show".

Maybe I look at this wrong, but I think the number reason for any light is the health of the corals, not putting on a light show. Perhaps my priorities are out of whack again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d3hree

if youre not bothered about power savings, bulb changes, sunrise, sunset, lightning storms controlled by your iphone or even heat then leds fall short IMO. If your only concern is sps colour and growth then MH with T5 suppliment is the only form of lighting to consider.

At this time I do agree but am hopeful that very soon we will have led's that can actually compete with the lighting we are accustomed to, and our corals are accustomed to. There are a few that seem to be very close to doing this.

nynick · 03/09/2013, 08:14 AM

Light is light, neither led or MH has the ability to produce some magic coral boosting super rays. A garbage, poor spectrum MH will produce exactly the same results as the corresponding garbage poor spectrum led and vice versa.

This whole MH vs led discussion that is going on so many forums really has no merit what so ever unless you take a specific MH setup vs a specific led setup.

sirreal63 · 03/09/2013, 08:16 AM

Nick, what would consider a garbage, poor spectrum MH?

Ron Reefman · 03/09/2013, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirreal63

At this time I do agree but am hopeful that very soon we will have led's that can actually compete with the lighting we are accustomed to, and our corals are accustomed to. There are a few that seem to be very close to doing this.

I think the led world has 'caught up' with the MH world in the last few months. I switched from 4 250w MH, 4 40w t5 and 36 3w leds to just 2 fixtures that are 99 3w leds. It's been 10 weeks and my corals are growing as good, or better than ever. So I assume the corals are happy.

I like the ability to change colors in my tank. I mostly like the '10K looks like I'm snorkeling' color, but I like the deep blue with 'flashy' corals in the evening too. And the best part is, these fixtures cost 60% of what I paid for just the MH 3 years ago. So leds can be cheaper to BUY than MH so who cares about cheaper to run (electricity, bulbs & chiller) and longer lasting. They have finally hit the big time as far as I'm concerned.

nynick · 03/09/2013, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirreal63

Nick, what would consider a garbage, poor spectrum MH?

I think that question kinda answers itself. There are literally thousands of varieties out there. Some great and some a street light where someone put a clown fish sticker on the box and renamed it "Super Coral".

For led you have the famous kitchen white/blue 1w bulb setups that can barely grow algae.

But of course you have amazing products on both sides too and they will all work great. If it is led or MH is of no concern for growing corals. If it is the right spectrum in the right amount they will be happy with it and both can produce the right spectrum and the right amount.

kenc87 · 03/09/2013, 09:21 AM

Maybe it's just locally but none of the guys running LEDs have anywhere near as nice of sps tanks as the guys who won't switch from mh. In my own tank I saw that a kessil was outdone by a mh. I am all for trying LEDs. As I said I'm interested in a reefbreeders value fixture but am just nervous in regards to growing sps.

Palting · 03/09/2013, 09:55 AM

Unfortunately, there have not been any comparative studies directly comparing coral growth under LEDS and MH. Even the link provided for what would be a fair comparison, http://www.vividaquariums.com/aquari...Experiment.asp , only went for 5 months and has had no updates since May 2012, and I see no conclusion as yet to their study.

MH has been tried and proven for coral growth for several decades. I know for a fact it has proven itself an excellent light for SPS growth in my tank. It's very hard to tell right now on LED's. There are people just gushing over LED's like it was the wheel reinvented, while there are others who are switching back to MH from LED's. It's all anecdotal.

My point, and as direct an answer as I can give to your question, is that if your main concern is growth and don't care about heat or cost, then you cannot go wrong with metal halides, and I recommend you go with it. I won't discourage you from LED's, as your experience may add to the growing evidence, but you may or may not have as much growth.

C Dog · 03/09/2013, 10:54 AM

To any one that says LEDs dont grow SPS pics dont lie..... Here is a BioBube 14G I had a few years ago. I started out with a 150w MH (name brand bulb & fixture) and switched to 2 PAR38 LEDs 20k ( only 10 LEDS TOTAL & cost about $200 to set up ). After switching to LEDs I had way better growth. I do belive though that with LEDs you need to set them up properly and spend the $$$ and do it right to get great results.

As you can see I had my frags on the black frag rack and had to move them to a egg create rack because they grew too big for the black rack

150W MH

(2) PAR38 bulbs (only 10 LEDS)

Jeff000 · 03/09/2013, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenc87

Maybe it's just locally but none of the guys running LEDs have anywhere near as nice of sps tanks as the guys who won't switch from mh. In my own tank I saw that a kessil was outdone by a mh. I am all for trying LEDs. As I said I'm interested in a reefbreeders value fixture but am just nervous in regards to growing sps.

Now do they not have as nice of a tank because they never have had as nice of a tank? or has the tank taken a downturn since going led?

What Kessil and what MH? And outdone how?

I went from T5 to DIY LED on my 90g, and growth shot through the roof. And my monti plate was growing like a plate and not like a cone.

I was going to run MH on my 330, but now the fixture I wanted to use won't fit, so going LED doesn't phase me.

sirreal63 · 03/09/2013, 11:13 AM

I don't think anyone here has said led won't grow coral, it has been a known thing since the Solaris.

Chaotic Reefer4u · 03/09/2013, 11:18 AM

C-Dog
Your tanks are really nice!

whodeydan76 · 03/09/2013, 12:14 PM

I am torn in this decision currently myself. I want to go led and can get 2 dimmable 55x3 led fixtures shipped to my door brand new with a 1 year warranty for $320 but I am being offered a mh dual 400 watt fixture with 14k bulbs and a 150 watt mh fixture with 2 blue actinic pc bulbs and 2 blue night time leds. My 75 had ati t5 6 bulb on it... my 65 gallon tank had a 4 bulb t5 fixture on it... I just dont know what to get. I have never gotten into much but softies but I plan to...93 gallon cube 3' square by 28" deep.

whodeydan76 · 03/09/2013, 12:16 PM

forgot to mention the mh fixtures both come with ballasts and either way I go Ill get it for $100...

Dmorty217 · 03/09/2013, 12:32 PM

I used metal halides before and loved them, other than the heat and bulbs replacement cost. I'm currently running only LEDs I have some Chinese Tao types(3) a Radion, and a rapid led onyx fixture. The Chinese LEDs were fairly cheap but still got the job done. Corals grew but not overly quick if that's really even possible with sps. The Radion on the other hand is a completely different story. Fully programmable and only at 55% with TIR lenses (gen2) and the onyx fixture was just put on the tank today so I can't comment yet but so far I love it

karsseboom · 03/09/2013, 12:41 PM

I would say MH is the best form of lighting. LEDS have a lot cool things and are also good at growing sps. If you put heat, electricity and bulb eplacment aside MH is still the best lighting.

rjd0521 · 03/09/2013, 12:41 PM

Picture of onyx on tank?

Palting · 03/09/2013, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Dog

To any one that says LEDs dont grow SPS pics dont lie..... Here is a BioBube 14G I had a few years ago. I started out with a 150w MH (name brand bulb & fixture) and switched to 2 PAR38 LEDs 20k ( only 10 LEDS TOTAL & cost about $200 to set up ). After switching to LEDs I had way better growth. I do belive though that with LEDs you need to set them up properly and spend the $$$ and do it right to get great results.

As you can see I had my frags on the black frag rack and had to move them to a egg create rack because they grew too big for the black rack

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirreal63

I don't think anyone here has said led won't grow coral, it has been a known thing since the Solaris.

LOL!! I think he just wanted to post his pics.

Nice tank, C-dog!

kenc87 · 03/09/2013, 04:58 PM

To answer the question about my comparison of kessil and the metal halide and which I was using let me fully explain. My display is lit by a aquatic life r7s 2x150 mh + 4x 39 watt t5. Frag tank was kessil a150w 10k about 6 inches above the water with sps frags only 5" under water. I bought 2 equally sized frags of pink birdsnest from a friend. After 2 months the one under the kessil showed growth tips and had growth slightly. The one in my display had growth much larger and had already had growth tips split twice. Both tanks have mp10's for flow and are plumbed together so same water conditions.

nynick · 03/09/2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenc87

To answer the question about my comparison of kessil and the metal halide and which I was using let me fully explain. My display is lit by a aquatic life r7s 2x150 mh + 4x 39 watt t5. Frag tank was kessil a150w 10k about 6 inches above the water with sps frags only 5" under water. I bought 2 equally sized frags of pink birdsnest from a friend. After 2 months the one under the kessil showed growth tips and had growth slightly. The one in my display had growth much larger and had already had growth tips split twice. Both tanks have mp10's for flow and are plumbed together so same water conditions.

In that case the name of this thread is wrong. It should be named "Kessil 150w vs MH bulbs xxx" or we could also claim that since I could not grow corals under kitchen flourecents I can not grow them under T5, another type of flourescent lights. We all know that this is of course not true so why make blanket statements about led? I guarantee you that you can not grow corals under a 1w led flashlight....so led sucks?

Some leds are terrible, some are so so, some are good and some are great, it is just a way to produce light. And gues what, if you match the watt and color of your favorite MH it is exactly the same light.

I dare anyone to buy a soft white MH bulb intended for outdoor flood lights of Ebay (should be 5 bucks or so). Then come to RC and make a thread called "MH can not grow corals" and watch the response you will get. A thread with blanket statements about led not growing corals should get exactly the same response but it does not.

03/08/2013, 10:39 PM	#1
kenc87 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Posts: 610	MH vs. led (growth only) As stated, I'm aware that LEDs use less power and run cooler. I personally don't care about those as I run a chiller and don't worry bout a few more dollars a month in electric. My main concern is the growth of sps coral under these light systems. Please post your experiences

03/09/2013, 06:16 AM	#5
Typlus5 Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Gonzales Louisiana Posts: 966	I thought this was a fair comparison. My only issue is they trying to match the color of the 20k bulbs and are leaving some intensity in the bank. http://www.vividaquariums.com/aquari...Experiment.asp __________________ TY I'm sure there's a way...and I have the will Current Tank Info: 110 Reef Savvy rimless, 40B sump, Current EFlux Return, XR15 Pros w/Reef Link, BK Mini 180 skimmer, MP40wES...driven by Apex

03/09/2013, 08:16 AM	#9
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	Nick, what would consider a garbage, poor spectrum MH? __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

03/09/2013, 09:55 AM	#13
Palting Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 6,912	Unfortunately, there have not been any comparative studies directly comparing coral growth under LEDS and MH. Even the link provided for what would be a fair comparison, http://www.vividaquariums.com/aquari...Experiment.asp , only went for 5 months and has had no updates since May 2012, and I see no conclusion as yet to their study. MH has been tried and proven for coral growth for several decades. I know for a fact it has proven itself an excellent light for SPS growth in my tank. It's very hard to tell right now on LED's. There are people just gushing over LED's like it was the wheel reinvented, while there are others who are switching back to MH from LED's. It's all anecdotal. My point, and as direct an answer as I can give to your question, is that if your main concern is growth and don't care about heat or cost, then you cannot go wrong with metal halides, and I recommend you go with it. I won't discourage you from LED's, as your experience may add to the growing evidence, but you may or may not have as much growth. __________________ Anything I post is just an opinion. One of many in this hobby. Believe and follow at your own risk of rapid and complete annihilation of all life in your tank :) Current Tank Info: Incept 3/2010, 150 RR, 50g sump, 20g fuge, 150w 15K MH x3, T5 actinics x8, moonlight LED x6, 1400gph return, Koralia 1400 x4, 300 g skimmer, 4 tangs, 2 mandarins, 2 perc, 6 line, 3 cardinals, 2 firefish, SPS, LPS, zoas, palys, shrooms, clam

03/09/2013, 10:54 AM	#14
C Dog Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: SWFL Posts: 532	To any one that says LEDs dont grow SPS pics dont lie..... Here is a BioBube 14G I had a few years ago. I started out with a 150w MH (name brand bulb & fixture) and switched to 2 PAR38 LEDs 20k ( only 10 LEDS TOTAL & cost about $200 to set up ). After switching to LEDs I had way better growth. I do belive though that with LEDs you need to set them up properly and spend the $$$ and do it right to get great results. As you can see I had my frags on the black frag rack and had to move them to a egg create rack because they grew too big for the black rack 150W MH (2) PAR38 bulbs (only 10 LEDS) __________________ C Dogs 400+ Gallon Sun Lit Peninsula Reef Last edited by C Dog; 03/09/2013 at 11:00 AM.

03/09/2013, 03:51 AM	#2
dthorn Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: erie pa Posts: 280	Not really what you're looking for, but you seem to be missing what I would consider the number one reason for leds. Control! The ability to change appearance to exactly what you want any time, really unique ramping shedules that put on a "show". Complete control of output let's you set them to exactly what you and your corals like. I'm just a noob with a vega color I'm in love with, growth has been great with lps. Lots of others out there showing great sps growth pics under leds and they keep getting better where halides stay the same. People are also having decent results with older technology leds as far as growth. It's not a question of whether or not leds are better. They are the future of reefing, just a question of when everyone is going to jump and when we will have the "best" leds for reef tanks. 5w leds fry corals effortlessly, so the power is there if used and focused properly. I'm hearing about higher watt leds that are even better, but will they actually be better or just fry more corals faster. I worked up to 100% on my vega with no problems aside from some bleached tips on a spaghetti leather 3 or 4 inches below water line. Over time though, I had to turn them down because coral colors were losing intensity, but were happy. I'm sure you'll get some good replies just thought i'd add my two cents. Happy reefing!

03/09/2013, 05:54 AM	#3
kenc87 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Posts: 610	I guess my concern is I have never seen in person a led lit sps dominant tank that can compete with mh lit sps tanks. I currently had a kessil a150 on my frag tank and got two birdsnest frags at the same time. I put one in my frag tank and the other in my display under mh/t5 and the growth in my display is twice what I'm getting from my kessil. I'm interested in the reefbreeders lights but I want to make sure I can get growth that is as good or better than mh. Until then I don't care if I have to pay more in electric and don't have as much control.

03/09/2013, 06:14 AM	#4
d3hree Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lancashire, UK Posts: 773	if youre not bothered about power savings, bulb changes, sunrise, sunset, lightning storms controlled by your iphone or even heat then leds fall short IMO. If your only concern is sps colour and growth then MH with T5 suppliment is the only form of lighting to consider.

03/09/2013, 06:27 AM	#6
blakeorme Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 350	Check out the new ATI Powermodule LED/T5 combo. Just pre-ordered a 48" for my new build. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Epeie...%3DEpeie4lspik

03/09/2013, 08:14 AM	#8
nynick Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 1,029	Light is light, neither led or MH has the ability to produce some magic coral boosting super rays. A garbage, poor spectrum MH will produce exactly the same results as the corresponding garbage poor spectrum led and vice versa. This whole MH vs led discussion that is going on so many forums really has no merit what so ever unless you take a specific MH setup vs a specific led setup.

03/09/2013, 09:21 AM	#12
kenc87 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Posts: 610	Maybe it's just locally but none of the guys running LEDs have anywhere near as nice of sps tanks as the guys who won't switch from mh. In my own tank I saw that a kessil was outdone by a mh. I am all for trying LEDs. As I said I'm interested in a reefbreeders value fixture but am just nervous in regards to growing sps.

03/09/2013, 11:13 AM	#16
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	I don't think anyone here has said led won't grow coral, it has been a known thing since the Solaris. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

03/09/2013, 11:18 AM	#17
Chaotic Reefer4u ♥Acropora Aficionado♥ Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Hollister,Ca. Posts: 5,163	C-Dog Your tanks are really nice! __________________ Live everyday as if it was your last, take time to smell the flowers, enjoy all things living, never take anything for granted, you just never know when your number might be up... Current Tank Info: * 90g. Reef Ready TruVu tank with 30g. Platinum Filtration Series Sump SpS Acro enthusiast *

03/09/2013, 12:14 PM	#18
whodeydan76 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Lima, Ohio Posts: 364	I am torn in this decision currently myself. I want to go led and can get 2 dimmable 55x3 led fixtures shipped to my door brand new with a 1 year warranty for $320 but I am being offered a mh dual 400 watt fixture with 14k bulbs and a 150 watt mh fixture with 2 blue actinic pc bulbs and 2 blue night time leds. My 75 had ati t5 6 bulb on it... my 65 gallon tank had a 4 bulb t5 fixture on it... I just dont know what to get. I have never gotten into much but softies but I plan to...93 gallon cube 3' square by 28" deep. __________________ "Don't sweat the petty things, don't pet the sweaty things" ~bazooka joe~ \,,/ REEF ON \,,/ Who Dey!?!? Go Bengals, Reds, Celtics, and most of all my boys midget team the Shawnee Quilnas! Current Tank Info: 75 gallon factory drilled set up. Oak stand and canopy.

03/09/2013, 12:16 PM	#19
whodeydan76 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Lima, Ohio Posts: 364	forgot to mention the mh fixtures both come with ballasts and either way I go Ill get it for $100... __________________ "Don't sweat the petty things, don't pet the sweaty things" ~bazooka joe~ \,,/ REEF ON \,,/ Who Dey!?!? Go Bengals, Reds, Celtics, and most of all my boys midget team the Shawnee Quilnas! Current Tank Info: 75 gallon factory drilled set up. Oak stand and canopy.

03/09/2013, 12:32 PM	#20
Dmorty217 Saltwater Addict Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Vandalia OHIO Posts: 11,624	I used metal halides before and loved them, other than the heat and bulbs replacement cost. I'm currently running only LEDs I have some Chinese Tao types(3) a Radion, and a rapid led onyx fixture. The Chinese LEDs were fairly cheap but still got the job done. Corals grew but not overly quick if that's really even possible with sps. The Radion on the other hand is a completely different story. Fully programmable and only at 55% with TIR lenses (gen2) and the onyx fixture was just put on the tank today so I can't comment yet but so far I love it

03/09/2013, 12:41 PM	#21
karsseboom Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 2,183	I would say MH is the best form of lighting. LEDS have a lot cool things and are also good at growing sps. If you put heat, electricity and bulb eplacment aside MH is still the best lighting.

03/09/2013, 12:41 PM	#22
rjd0521 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Fullerton, CA Posts: 326	Picture of onyx on tank?

03/09/2013, 04:58 PM	#24
kenc87 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Posts: 610	To answer the question about my comparison of kessil and the metal halide and which I was using let me fully explain. My display is lit by a aquatic life r7s 2x150 mh + 4x 39 watt t5. Frag tank was kessil a150w 10k about 6 inches above the water with sps frags only 5" under water. I bought 2 equally sized frags of pink birdsnest from a friend. After 2 months the one under the kessil showed growth tips and had growth slightly. The one in my display had growth much larger and had already had growth tips split twice. Both tanks have mp10's for flow and are plumbed together so same water conditions.