Two weeks in and floundering!

[SomethinFishy81]

Hi, I am new to all this... including forums! I think this is a first for me to be honest. Anyhow, here it goes:

I was given an established tank:

Acrylic, SeaClear System II, 66g w/basic powerhead added for movement
Live rock: 55lbs
Stock: Orange Spotted Grouper, 25yrs+, 12" (+/-), very aggressive to all animal life not allowing even a CUC in the tank

Upon moving the tank to it's new home, the water parameters went wonko and the system crashed... killing my new, old friend, the live rock wasted away and the mushrooms I had in there all melted away. Basically, the tank is a yellow mess.

At the moment, the ammonia levels are literally off the charts. My testing kit goes to 8.0ppm and I would say this water is well beyond that... at least to 10ppm. I thought, "Maybe you're doing it wrong?" So, I had it tested at my LFS. They came up with the same.

Ammonia: 10ppm+
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 160+ (my tap water has high nitrates and I'll be switching to RO for all the following water changes.)
pH: 8.2
Sg: 1.021

What I have done:
-Siphoned gunk from top of sand (I know not the best but it was THICK cuz fish didn't allow CUC)

-Multiple water changes in the last two weeks (which has resulted in basically a full-water change)

-Added AmQuel Plus (didn't work)

-AmmoLock (didn't work)

-Added NiteOut II nitrifying bacteria this gave little response. However, some pink started showing up.

-Using Barrier and Paradigm (by ATM) to treat water

-Currently using alpha (by Seachem).

-Currently using Nutrafin Cycle (on day 2)

We tried damsels yesterday as an experiment because the AmmoLock and AmQuel... but, they both eventually died by morning. One died during the acclimation process (used drip method). So, I am at whits end with this!!!

I don't wanna dump all this water yet because it is teaming with bacteria I paid thru the nose to get my hands on. I live in an area with LIMITED experts available for helping me. Not to mention that and every 'expert' I DO run into around here has something different to say about this and a different product to use!

FORUM: Please help me find the best way to do this. I COULD do a tear-down of my tank and rebuild. However, I have spent weeks on this already and have some bacteria growing. WHAT TO DO??? Wait it out?

sidebar:

(1) SOMEHOW the bristle worms, another unknown worm, a few clams and a brine shrimp have survived and are all thriving (so it seems)... How's that???

(2) I have, since this picture was taken, re-scaped the LR to be more open and have better flow throughout. The water is also much clearer now.

(3) Should I quit with my bacteria and do a complete tear down?

[mikem101]

So it sounds like when you moved the tank it pretty much took all the different organisms and bacteria the tank had built up and killed them. So if you didn’t wash everything it off before restocking the tank all the die off created a Nitrate spike which in turn created a Ammonia spike. IMO I would empty the water clear out sand (if you can get new sand, if not rinse the one you have with a ton of salt water) take the live rock out and rinse it very well with salt water. Set the tank back up and start a cycle. It will be just like you bought a new tank.

BTW dont try any more fish at all till the tank cycles.

[cidbozek]

Tear it down, get new sand, put rock in a tote with a power head and heater, after scrubbing and rinsing of course, don't restart til you get r o water, just my 2 cents

[cidbozek]

Also I would think that fish needed a tank in the hundreds of gallons, anyone?

[mikem101]

yea would need a much bigger tank.

[robs.mark]

Welcome to RC!

You probably need to start again completely mate, there is a good chance that rock will be riddled with p04 so in the long run your probably better off ditching it and starting again. I would pull everything apart and wash it with a vinegar ro water solution, pumps skimmer the lot. Do you know if the tank has ever been treated with copper meds? if so its no worth continuing with. Replace the sand or clean it very well, dont worry about using salt water to do this, regular tap water if fine with a final ro rinse. Dont go any furthur without at least an ro unit. When cycling the system give it ample time and dont but any livestock in until you hit and are maintaining zeros, new live rock alone is ample to start a cycle with. Take your test kits and throw them out if they came with the tank as they are probably as old as the hills and over time they become very inaccurate, keep getting the lfs to test if its too expensive to buy new ones. Also stop using all those chemicals, imo a waste of time and money! What lighting does the system have? replace the tubes or bulbs while your at it. I know all this sounds drastic and expensive but all this will prevent headaches down the line, and will more than likely disscourage you from this great hobby. Good luck and keep asking questions!

[SomethinFishy81]

Thank you for all the responses!!! Keep them coming! I want as many ideas and options as possible!!! :-)

cidbozek: Yes, the fish should have been in a larger tank. Like a 200+ gallon tank. This I knew before I even got started. My plan was to find him a better home than this tank could give him and restock. I knew if I didn't, that it would only be a matter of time before he passed.

Robs.mark- A local "Professional" had been babying the fish for several years- basically, bleeding these people dry only to keep him alive with chemicals and not with a proper nitrification cycling, CUCs, etc. So, when he died, I felt HORRIBLE... but, at the same time, I kinda knew it wasn't my fault and more of a bad-setup situation.

Copper meds??? IDK honestly.

Lighting: Omni T5 (a good one from what I have read in several forums).

I cannot afford $400 for new LR, so I will start it curing in my garage (or closet as it can get 100F + in the garage.) Ugh... but, that sh*t stinks, right? GRRRR... Should I add the nitrifying bacteria I have to the LR curing bin? What temp should I have it set to?


Maybe I should have stuck to my chickens... haha (I really do raise farm birds too...)

[twelvefive]

I bought an established tank about a month ago and went through the same thing. The only way my creatures survived was very aggressive water changes. I lost two star fish and an anemone, though, but all of my fish survived.

Here's my thread.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2303687

Honestly, I would let your cycle run it's course, then slowly add fish in 2-3 weeks.

[cidbozek]

I bet that fish was cool to watch picking off
the cuc

[robs.mark]

Maybe you could join a local club and buy some used lr from a reputable source? if not i would bleach the rock, but this could take weeks.

[SomethinFishy81]

Tell me what you guys think... cuz, I really need to cut corners IF I'm able to. The sig other is starting to get worked up at the $$ I am spending. LOL

****
empty tank, Clean/scrub LR (and tank), rinse sand/CC and refill with RO, add the bacteria then just let it cycle? Should I clean the wet/dry (built in) and bioballs?

Thanks again guys!

[Fretfreak13]

Close, but try this =)

-Empty and throw out old water
-Scrub live rock/tank (wear gloves, watch for bristolworms)
-rinse sand
-Put everything back once clean
-refil with SALT water. Mix this in a seperate container with RO. Don't refil with ro and then add salt because the salt will get stuck in pockets of sand/rock and not dissolve correctly. OR before adding sand/rock back, mix the new saltwater in the tank and THEN add the rock/sand.
-add bacteria to saltwater/rock/sand. You can buy a bottle, or just buy a few new pieces of LR to seed the old ones with new strains of bacteria. your choice.
-Let it cycle!!!!!!!! With all the crazy stuff thats going on with this tank, know this will not be a quick process. Probably around a month or so. Buy yourself some test kits, sit back, and let it do its thing before you add ANYTHING. That includes damsels/snails/hermits etc.

Also, throw those bio balls away. Can we have a picture of the sump you're using so we can instruct you how to modify it? Bioballs are something that was done a long time ago, no one uses them anymore because they cause more problems than they help with.

[tamaroo]

IMO, you don't need to take the rock out of the tank. Leave everything be. Just "cook" the rock it in the tank and while letting the tank stabilize. Just keep up on your husbandry (vac sand, water changes, testing). You just won't be able to add fish for a while, which you wouldn't be able to do anyway. No sense in making more work for yourself.

Edit: Also, the bacteria is on the sand and rock, not in the water column, so don't be afraid to do a few aggressive water changes.

[robs.mark]

The proplem is guys, this guy was keeping a huge fish in this tank, huge fish eat lots of food, my guess is that the p04 in this tank is through th roof. LR is very porus, all the nasties get into the rock and are very difficult to remove. If not bleached and repeatidly flushed this LR will continue to leach this p04 into the water. Its best to resolve this prior to setting up the tank than after its full of coral. Reefkeeping is expensive, and everything takes forever.

[Spongebob20]

I agree with what was said before. You need to start over. First things first, take all those chemicals you bought and throw them away haha. DO NOT add any of those to your tank, if you do things right you'll never need them, CUC and water changes take care of it all. More chemicals in the water, more problems. I would not recommend using bacteria from a bottle either. You want to preserve all that live rock because it is valuable and expensive to replace. I would put it in a container with heated saltwater and some circulation ( you can just use heater and powerhead from your tank). This way you can preserve the rock while you redo the tank. Also, this will allow for alot of the waste in the rock to wash off into the container you're keeping it in. If the rock is already dead thats a different story. Soak it in water, scrub it all with a wire brush, hose each piece of, and let it dry out in the sun on some plywood or something. Once you re- setup the tank you can add a couple pounds of live rock to make all the dead rock live again (will take several months)
So what you should do:

1) Drain all water and sand- then get rid of it
2) Store rock in containers if still live, wash it using method above if it is now dead
3) Wash out the tank with hot water and scrub it down DO NOT use any chemicals, just water and a soft bristle brush so you don't scratch the glass
4) Put the tank back on the stand
5) If the rock is dead, add it before the water
5)* If the rock is still live, first fill your tank with RO water, add salt (salinity between 1.024-1.026) and get it heated to 78-80 fahrenheit, then add the rock. Keep in mind the rock will displace water as you add it.
6) Add live sand
7) Let it sit and cycle for a few weeks. If the rock is all still live it will do this on its own. If the rock died off, go to the local fish store and get 5-10 pounds of live rock depending on your budget. This will eventually make all the rock that died out live again.
8) Do not add any fish until the tank cycles. You may need to add some fish flakes or frozen food like marine cuisine to the tank in order to get the cycle going. DO NOT use bacteria from a bottle or any other chemicals. The only things you should add are rock, RO water, salt mix.

This is what I did to set up my tank, and I had bought everything used, including 100 lbs of dried out rock. It cycled fine (I used 3 damsels to cycle it but now regret it because I can't get them out of the tank). The tank has been up for a month now and is doing great. PM me if you have any questions and good luck.

*Do not use any chemicals or products out of a bottle, especially not bacteria. Once more, the only things in the tank should be rock, sand, RO water, salt mix. Let the tank sit for at least 3 weeks before you put any fish in it.

[Spongebob20]

Also you didn't mention anything about a filter or protein skimmer? Filter you don't need if all the rock is live. Protein skimmer you definitely need either way. If you don't have an RO/DI unit, ordering one should be the first thing you do. While you wait for it to arrive and while you wait for it to make enough water to fill the tank, you can have ur live rock sitting in containers with heaters and circulation in saltwater. If it's dead just store it anywhere while you wait for the RO/DI unit.

[SomethinFishy81]

It is a lot to take in! But, lots of great info!

I will try and post some pics and start moving the LR into a whirlpool setup today. Temp 76-80?

I have a SeaClear System II, the built-in stages include: pre-filter, skimmer, wet/dry w/bio-balls (two chambers) and the pump chamber.

Also- Toss bio-balls? What is a good replacement IYO?

FYI- the title for the post is SOMEWHAT misleading... I have never went out to do SW tanks. I have, however, had FW my whole life. I have researched SW for a few years. I am quite familiar with water chemistry, the science behind the nitrogen cycle and bacterias, necessary components, etc. I am one who is read up on the subject (quite) I have just not implemented it all. I know the facts, just not exactly how to put it all together... make sense??


Thanks again for all the help. I will post those pics soon!!!

[t00lfan]

If you kept bio balls wet keep them in for bacteria but rinse rock off in and dump all that water. Eventually get rid of bio balls when you stabilize your cycle for a bit and getting that RO unit will be huge for you. Corals and tapwater should be avoided although I have heard its possible I wouldn't bother. I know you want to cut corners and hurry but it will be worth taking your time. I haven't seen one of those seaclears in person but too bad you couldn' mod a chaeto fuge in that setup back there to keep nutrients down. And is that a 50 gallon or 75? Couldn't find a 66 gal

[crsswift70]

Originally Posted by Spongebob20

I agree with what was said before. You need to start over. First things first, take all those chemicals you bought and throw them away haha. DO NOT add any of those to your tank, if you do things right you'll never need them, CUC and water changes take care of it all. More chemicals in the water, more problems. I would not recommend using bacteria from a bottle either. You want to preserve all that live rock because it is valuable and expensive to replace. I would put it in a container with heated saltwater and some circulation ( you can just use heater and powerhead from your tank). This way you can preserve the rock while you redo the tank. Also, this will allow for alot of the waste in the rock to wash off into the container you're keeping it in. If the rock is already dead thats a different story. Soak it in water, scrub it all with a wire brush, hose each piece of, and let it dry out in the sun on some plywood or something. Once you re- setup the tank you can add a couple pounds of live rock to make all the dead rock live again (will take several months)
So what you should do:

1) Drain all water and sand- then get rid of it
2) Store rock in containers if still live, wash it using method above if it is now dead
3) Wash out the tank with hot water and scrub it down DO NOT use any chemicals, just water and a soft bristle brush so you don't scratch the glass
4) Put the tank back on the stand
5) If the rock is dead, add it before the water
5)* If the rock is still live, first fill your tank with RO water, add salt (salinity between 1.024-1.026) and get it heated to 78-80 fahrenheit, then add the rock. Keep in mind the rock will displace water as you add it.
6) Add live sand
7) Let it sit and cycle for a few weeks. If the rock is all still live it will do this on its own. If the rock died off, go to the local fish store and get 5-10 pounds of live rock depending on your budget. This will eventually make all the rock that died out live again.
8) Do not add any fish until the tank cycles. You may need to add some fish flakes or frozen food like marine cuisine to the tank in order to get the cycle going. DO NOT use bacteria from a bottle or any other chemicals. The only things you should add are rock, RO water, salt mix.

This is what I did to set up my tank, and I had bought everything used, including 100 lbs of dried out rock. It cycled fine (I used 3 damsels to cycle it but now regret it because I can't get them out of the tank). The tank has been up for a month now and is doing great. PM me if you have any questions and good luck.

*Do not use any chemicals or products out of a bottle, especially not bacteria. Once more, the only things in the tank should be rock, sand, RO water, salt mix. Let the tank sit for at least 3 weeks before you put any fish in it.

I would agree with this except that i would clean the tank with some vinegar and water and that "live" sand isn't needed. The old sand though, i would pretty much guarantee needs to be tossed. Sitting in an old tank undisturbed for that long... it has to smell awful and will be impossible to clean out. I am not sure how you determine if your live rock is saturated with phosphates, but cooking it probably wouldn't hurt anything. Either in the tank or in the garage, your choice. I would get some pieces from a shop or fellow reefer to re-seed after doing so.

[SomethinFishy81]

I've moved most of the liverock to my 25g with a Marineland 350, skimmer and 76deg auto heater. Nothing special. (See pic that I post later.) Tank cycles 15 or so times an hour. The tank was already cycling a week ago with minimal sand and liverock. Pic is of new aquascape with powerhead added for movement. Will be doing a water change soon with RO and all the following changes. Its already cycling in the Nitrites phase. So, I'll be adding CUC as soon as I'm seeing zeros across the board.

To clear up other questions:

-I own a new marine master test kit and I know how to use it properly. I need to add Ca test, p04 test, chlorine and chloramine, etc. Until I'm ready for corals and other delicate life, I think I'm good as long add I use RO from now on...

-I'm going to build an RO/Di unit. Cuz I'm handy like that.

[keithhays]

This is not a workable situation. If you can't immediately get the water parameters correct, I am certain almost any LFS will take the fish off your hands before you kill it.

The tank is too small for the fish and you have nowhere near enough biological surface area to support the bioload. The bottled bacteria isn't going to work fast enough for you to cycle anything before the fish dies.

Put in Prime to get the ammonia down (it will still be biologically available to bacteria) and find a home for the fish. Let the tank cycle and buy a couple clowns or something.

[cidbozek]

Upon moving the tank to it's new home, the water parameters went wonko and the system crashed... killing my new, old friend, the live rock wasted away and the mushrooms I had in there all melted away. Basically, the tank is a yellow mess.

You must have missed this

[keithhays]

Originally Posted by cidbozek

Upon moving the tank to it's new home, the water parameters went wonko and the system crashed... killing my new, old friend, the live rock wasted away and the mushrooms I had in there all melted away. Basically, the tank is a yellow mess.

You must have missed this

Yes, that's what I get for being up so early in the morning. I would likely dump everything if the live rock etc. had been in the original tank for sometime and just start over dry.

I have, I believe, tried all of the bacteria in a bottle and the only one that really works pretty much as described is Dr. Tim's one-and-only for marine or saltwater. It will cycle the initial ammonia part (3ppm) in about 3 days, but you will still have to wait the additional weeks for the rest of the nitrite bacteria to get going; they are slow buggers.

When the op moved the tank, he probably had an short ammonia and/or sulfide spike which sterilized the tank (from the live rock and sand). Even nitrifying bacteria can only live up to certain levels; about 5ppm in saltwater is about the highest you want it to ever get for the bacteria. Of course this wouldn't be true for fish. Even so the grouper wouldn't have been able to survive very long; too much ammonia would be produce for the amount of bacteria available.
In case anyone else reads this in the future a good way to keep this from happening, if you are doing the same thing, is about 10 weeks before the tank is moved get 5 gallon bucket of Pond Matrix and rig a circulating pump to run through it (high flow bottom to top) and back into the tank. This will bring both nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria with you in the bucket without all of the nasty stuff in the rocks and sand that will produce an ammonia spike. Hookup up the bucket to the new tank, move the fish to the new tank with new rock and sand (or no rock and sand either works).


In this case, that amount of pond matrix would have easily supported the large fish (and possibly a few more) from an ammonia production point of view. This of course is completely separate from swimming space, but he would be alive.

I am sorry about the fish. Moving tanks is tricky.