Fish are dying!

[KatrinaB]

Okay, here's a little info about the tank:
38 Gallon, 2.5 months old, ph 8.1, ammonia between 0-0.25, nitrates 0, nitrites 0, sg at 1.025, temp at 78. We have been running a red sea prism protein skimmer, coral life t5 quad high output (50% arcnik and 50% 10000 k) lights. Initially, we had a small powerhead, but recently upgraded to a wavemaker controller and two wavemaker powerheads. We HAD 2 true percula clowns, one coral beauty dwarf angelfish, and a tribal blenny.

While I was out of town, our tribal blenny died. Shortly after that, the coral beauty turned pale (what my husband and I refer to as "sick ET color") and died. Clowns were acting stressed. My husband, thinking there wasn't enough oxygen, pointed the powerheads up, and turned on some airstones in the tank. I got home last night, and our fire shrimp died. My husband suspected the wavemakers and O2, but I suspected the blenny, which we got about a week or two ago. We did a 40% water change. One clown is doing quite a bit better, but the other is still at the bottom, gasping, pretty much unchanged from last night. None of the fish have had any visible external deficiencies. My husband is very upset, and I am trying to figure out: 1) is there anything else we can do to save the clowns; 2) what do we do when all is said and done (i.e., sterilize the tank, how long to wait before any new fish are added, etc.); and 3) what the heck happened?

Thanks, all!

[sellersmd]

I would start by moving the clowns to a quarantine tank so you can treat/monitor them more effectively, and they won't have to deal with all the other 'stressors' of the tank. Its very hard to diagnose what happened. Are those water quality parameters before or after fish started dying? Check the water again if they are from before. I don't think the wavemaker would be the problem, personally.

[gone fishin]

It is possible that you had an ammonia spike when the blenny died. A 2 1/2 month tank is most likely not sufficiently mature to handle a large spike. I would continue with some water changes and maybe run some carbon.

[KatrinaB]

We have checked the params several times during this whole issue, and they have been about the same. Obviously the ammonia went up to about 0.25 after the two fish died, but it's back down to near 0 now. Will move the clowns into QT. Should we treat them with anything at this point? If so, what?

[turboreef318]

What type of test kits are you using? Have the kits expired? If all of the tanks parameters are where they should be and you are still having problems, I would take a water sample to a LFS and have them test it just to double check. Also another thought, if the fish are acting stressed, adding a grounding probe will eliminate any stray electric currents in the water that can seriously stress fish without showing any signs in the actual water parameters.

[Cymonous]

Definitely get those fish into a freshly made QT. They are suffering from ammonia poisoning. You can treat the fish with prazipro just in-case if any internal problems with the fish. Keep the fish in the QT till you get all of the parameters straightened out with your DT. Move your clowns back into DT. Wait a couple weeks before getting more fish.

[KatrinaB]

We are using the API saltwater master test kit.

[FTDelta]

API Master kits are so-so for saltwater but invest in a good quality test kit instead.

How long did you let the tank cycle? A typical cycle usually last 8 - 12 weeks. 2.5 weeks is 6 weeks.

[KatrinaB]

It cycled for 28 days. We haven't had any problems until now. Clowns are still alive, but also still the same.

[JDMR2]

What salt are you using for making your saltwater? Did change your salt recently? Are you by chance using Red Sea salt?

[FTDelta]

Heh ... 28 days and the tank never even had a chance to finish a cycle. No wonder your fish died. Just because your reading came out 0 at first, you always end up with numbers spiking again because the tank wasn't completely cycled. It went thru another cycle.

If I were you, I'd stop, slow down and don't rush into this. Read and research everything about saltwater aquaria keeping. Read the stickies on this forums. Understand why you need to be patience when going through a cycle.

[FTDelta]

Originally Posted by JDMR2

What salt are you using for making your saltwater? Did change your salt recently? Are you by chance using Red Sea salt?

That's irrelevant. They never gave their tank a chance cycle completely for 8 - 12 weeks.

[JDMR2]

Originally Posted by FTDelta

Heh ... 28 days and the tank never even had a chance to finish a cycle. No wonder your fish died. Just because your reading came out 0 at first, you always end up with numbers spiking again because the tank wasn't completely cycled. It went thru another cycle.

If I were you, I'd stop, slow down and don't rush into this. Read and research everything about saltwater aquaria keeping. Read the stickies on this forums. Understand why you need to be patience when going through a cycle.

Although that is true, and I agree, but wouldn't she have seen signs of ammonia poisoning sooner as opposed to ~2 months later?

[JDMR2]

Well, after thinking about it, we dont even know if the cycle even started until they added the fish. IF the cycle even started during the first 28 days.

[TheAquatect]

Did you add all those fish at once? If so, you likely caused an ammonia spike as the bio load would be too great for a new tank which just cycled.

[KatrinaB]

No, we didn't add all the fish at once. Our LFS recommended cycling for 28 days, so we did, with Start Smart, live sand, and live rock. We added the clowns, then a month later added the coral beauty, and two or three weeks later added the blenny. Somewhere in there we also added the clean up crew. 2.5 months is 10-11 weeks, not 6. We have been using Instant Ocean salt. This morning the clowns are swimming around a bit, the one that was doing very badly yesterday seems much better. He still rests at the bottom, but is no longer gasping, and ventures out for a swim around the tank after about 30 seconds of sitting on the bottom. One level that we weren't testing was our phosphates, so we got a test for that and they seemed a little high after our last water change, so perhaps it was phosphates that caused our problems? At any rate, we won't be adding any new fish for quite some time.

[dkeller_nc]

In my opinion, it's doubtful your issues are with toxic water chemistry. It's not impossible, of course, but doubtful.

Everyone would need a lot more information about tank specifics, such as other organisms in the tank, skimmer, tank temperature, tank location (i.e., next to a window, etc...) to really nail down a diagnosis, but here are my thoughts:

1) What's your tank temperature, and are you sure that your measuring device is reasonably accurate? I've helped folks before that had temperature issues and didn't know it, because the tank temp was always 78 deg F when measured. The problem was that they had a controllable thermostat, and the house was 8 deg hotter during weekdays during work hours, and the tank was over-temping by 10 degrees from the lights and higher room temp.

2) You may have a disease process going on, such as ich, amyloodinum, etc... That wouldn't affect your fire shrimp, but that doesn't eliminate the possibility - the fire shrimp could've expired for other reasons.

3) If you've other non-fish organisms in the tank, one or more of them may have either died or been stressed from something and exuded a toxin into the tank water. Common examples of this would be zooanthids/palythoas, sponges, and sea apples/sea cucumbers. If you suspect this is the case, put some high-quality activated carbon into the water flow of your sump, at least a cupful (well rinsed with RODI water), and perform several 20% water changes in a row.

4) Do you have any young children (or have young children as relatives)? There are many tales of young kids deciding that the fish must be thirsty and dumping their orange juice/Coca-Cola, etc... into the tank. Solution is similar to the toxin situation - several large water changes in a row.

If I had to bet on any of the above scenarios, my bet would be on the disease process, particularly if the fish did not go through quarantine.

[billsreef]

Originally Posted by dkeller_nc

If I had to bet on any of the above scenarios, my bet would be on the disease process, particularly if the fish did not go through quarantine.

Indeed this is the best bet.

[KatrinaB]

Thanks for the ideas, dkeller_nc. We have used two different thermometers on the tank to check the temp, and our house usually stays about the same temp, give or take two or three degrees. We have done some water changes, and are running some carbon now. No young kids, though my husband has been sleepwalking recently, and I was gone for several nights, so I can't promise something didn't go into the tank (he does some weird stuff sometimes). Again, I suspect the blenny may have brought something in, and that his demise may have caused the others' problems. Lesson learned, and we will be using a QT for all new fish. It could have been a member of the clean up crew that died too, I suppose (?). Things seem to be stabilizing, as we haven't had any deaths since the shrimp. Feeling slightly less panicked at this point, but still appreciate any feedback. How long should we continue water changes at this point? I don't want to overdo it, but also want to make sure things are safe.

[KatrinaB]

Oh, and our tank is on an inside wall in the house with no windows or vents near it. There are several snails, red legged hermits, and a conch in the tank besides the fish. We do monitor the temp as best we can (check in the morning, during lunch hour, and in the evening).

[FTDelta]

Originally Posted by KatrinaB

2.5 months is 10-11 weeks, not 6.

My bad - you are correct. I was thinking 1 1/2 months.

[dkeller_nc]

Based on your description of the appearance of the fish before they died and what I'm interpreting as a very short time period between when you noticed something was wrong and the fish deaths, I'd suspect amyloodinium (marine velvet). Ich isn't outside the realm of possibility, but usually you would see the classic white spots of the disease.

The classic treatment for amyloodinium is a formalin dip, but I'm no disease expert by any means - I'm familiar with just the ones that I've been unfortunate enough to encounter personally.

There's a pretty good disease forum on Reef Central, it would be worth consulting. For parasitic diseases, the usual course of action is to remove the fish from the display tank and wait out the life cycle of the parasite.

[KatrinaB]

Thanks for all the feedback. The clowns are out and about as though everything is normal again. Hopefully we are done with toilet-side services for now.

[Fizz71]

Glad to hear things are doing better. I'm sorry I missed this the first time it was posted. My money is still on ammonia poising. I'm guessing you had too many fish too fast and after the first one died it just pushed the rest over the edge. The fact that the clowns survived is a testament to the fact that they are form the damsel family which are known to be hardy in low levels of ammonia...which is why they used to be used to cycle tanks before we knew any better.