Return Pump in Sump or Outside?

eclarkhb · 09/27/2013, 09:43 PM

I'm currently designing my 1st reef tank. I'm planning on a 30x30x24 "cube" tank. Most sumps are designed for rectangular tanks, but with this shape, I could do a custom sump that was more square.

Since I'm a new to the hobby, I think that the extra water volume provided by a large sump would be beneficial from a stability standpoint, but maintenance, plumbing, etc. on an external pump seems easier.

With a 30x30 tank, I figure I've got about 27"x27" inside once I build the stand. With my initial design I wanted to leave an additional 6" on one side for anything else I want to keep in the stand under the tank.

Here's my initial design for a sump - any thoughts/guidance/opinions/critiques??

Thanks!!

eclarkhb · 09/27/2013, 09:45 PM

I wasn't very clear in the first post, but I would really like to see some opinions & pros/cons regarding internal vs. external pumps for a new reefer where all plumbing has to be in the stand.

Thanks!!

jamesbaur13 · 09/27/2013, 09:51 PM

I can't answer your question about pumps accurately.

I was just curious, why wouldn't you want to extend the refugium so it would be 21x12" (span the bottom width of the drawing)?

oscarinw · 09/27/2013, 10:22 PM

My point against external pumps is that an external plumbing can be a source for a leak/flood. However, I definitely considered going external for the sake of having a reliable, silent, efficient and cold pump like the well reviewed Eheim 1262. But I ended up going internal.

eclarkhb · 09/27/2013, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesbaur13

I can't answer your question about pumps accurately.

I was just curious, why wouldn't you want to extend the refugium so it would be 21x12" (span the bottom width of the drawing)?

So my thought process was that the return section of the sump is where I'll do my water changes & where the water level will vary due to evaporation. My 30x30x24 tank is 93 gallons, so the sump as pictured allows me to do about a 13 gallon or 14% water change.

If I shrink the sump for a larger fuge, then I can only do 8 gallon water changes (8.5%), which seems a bit small to me...

But I'd appreciate any experienced thoughts on the matter. Anything I'm stating is purely theory based on stuff I've read.

eclarkhb · 09/27/2013, 10:37 PM

Sump is mislabeled btw - should read 22" wide.

ca1ore · 09/27/2013, 10:39 PM

I'm an external guy, but here's my view. Internal pumps have less chance of leaks, but take up space in the sump and can add excessive heat to the tank. External pumps are more likely to have leaks, but add less heat and take up no sump space.

jamesbaur13 · 09/28/2013, 12:31 AM

Eheim 1262 can be used either way.

WC through the sump is nice, but I would never dictate the layout of the sump specifically for water changes. There is such a small ratio of time that your tank stays in this state. If you had a tank which was big enough, that the activity wouldn't intrude upon it's everyday function, then you'd be cool. But, you're not.

You'd be better off doing a WC with the DT.

Another thing to consider...

Biopellets
GFO
Carbon

You need to have room dedicated for at least one of these 3... more than likely you'll need room for 2.

jinks · 09/28/2013, 01:21 AM

I think you will take to much space up with an external. With the with of the pump, the pvc fitting on the pump and to the tank, and a quick connection I would think you would be looking at a foot gone. That's only 18in left not the 27 you want. Putting one under a tank less then 4 ft seems like to little space to me.

Palting · 09/28/2013, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesbaur13

Eheim 1262 can be used either way.

WC through the sump is nice, but I would never dictate the layout of the sump specifically for water changes. There is such a small ratio of time that your tank stays in this state. If you had a tank which was big enough, that the activity wouldn't intrude upon it's everyday function, then you'd be cool. But, you're not.

You'd be better off doing a WC with the DT.

Another thing to consider...

Biopellets
GFO
Carbon

You need to have room dedicated for at least one of these 3... more than likely you'll need room for 2.

I personally went with an in-sump pump since the tank sits on carpeted floor, and a leak would be a catastrophe. Heat has not been an issue, even with the fact that I use metal halides for lighting. Ambient room temp runs about 72, tank temp runs at 78-80, and I even use a heater occasionally This is for a 1400 gph return pump in a 200 gallon system.

I agree with the above with regards to leaving room for water change in the sump. To me it makes no sense to leave room in the sump for water change. I turn my pumps off to do a water change, then drain the 10% (20 gallons) from the DT. For evaporation, I run an ATO so that the water level in the system has very minimal fluctuation. The only volume you have to reserve for in the sump is to leave enough open space for a power outage.

As far as GFO and biopellets, if you allot at least 10% system volume for the refugium (at least 10 gallons in your case), you can grow macroalgae that will keep your nitrates and phosphates in check. Much better, more natural, and cheaper than GFO/biopllets, IMO. In my 200 gallon system, the refugium is a dedicated 20 gallon refugium full of macro algae, and I have never had a phosphate nor nitrate proble, nor an algae issue in the DT.

Just IMO, and HTH!!!

Indymann99 · 09/28/2013, 07:04 AM

Internal vs external for me came down to potential for leak and space. I have not found heat a problem, but I dont run high heat lighting.

As for your sump layout. I too do WC from the sump. I have a dedicated Mag5 that sits in the skimmer section of my sump (left in the pict) for WC. However when I shut down my return pump for WC, the DT will continue to drain down to below the overflow, and the return outlets. This raises the level of the sump ABOVE all the baffles so when I do the WC it pulls MORE water than just the chamber the WC pump is in. Hope thats clear? In the picture below of my sump the water level will raise to the PUMP OFF line. This is above all the baffles in the sump.

I get about a 20g WC out of my system for each WC.

Hope this helps.

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...Csystemjpg.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...MixStorage.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n.../QTinMixRm.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...DSC_0098-1.jpg

AZBigJohn · 09/28/2013, 08:58 AM

I would think, especially with the square sump design and space limitation you have that an internal pump makes more sense. Arguments can be made for both to be better, bit from a space issue alone, I would vote internal for this one.

Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express

09/27/2013, 09:43 PM	#1
eclarkhb Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 35	Return Pump in Sump or Outside? I'm currently designing my 1st reef tank. I'm planning on a 30x30x24 "cube" tank. Most sumps are designed for rectangular tanks, but with this shape, I could do a custom sump that was more square. Since I'm a new to the hobby, I think that the extra water volume provided by a large sump would be beneficial from a stability standpoint, but maintenance, plumbing, etc. on an external pump seems easier. With a 30x30 tank, I figure I've got about 27"x27" inside once I build the stand. With my initial design I wanted to leave an additional 6" on one side for anything else I want to keep in the stand under the tank. Here's my initial design for a sump - any thoughts/guidance/opinions/critiques?? Thanks!!

09/27/2013, 09:51 PM	#3
jamesbaur13 Apsiring Alhcohlolic Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 772	I can't answer your question about pumps accurately. I was just curious, why wouldn't you want to extend the refugium so it would be 21x12" (span the bottom width of the drawing)? __________________ 120G AGA Dual Overflow, 40G B Sump, SRO-2000int, 2 Eheim 200w Heater, Eheim 1262 Return, BRS C & GFO React., BR-1000ss Biopellet React., Tunze 5017 ATO, 2 MP-40wes, DIY 76LED (36RB,24NW,6B,6CW,4Moon)

09/28/2013, 12:31 AM	#8
jamesbaur13 Apsiring Alhcohlolic Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 772	Eheim 1262 can be used either way. WC through the sump is nice, but I would never dictate the layout of the sump specifically for water changes. There is such a small ratio of time that your tank stays in this state. If you had a tank which was big enough, that the activity wouldn't intrude upon it's everyday function, then you'd be cool. But, you're not. You'd be better off doing a WC with the DT. Another thing to consider... Biopellets GFO Carbon You need to have room dedicated for at least one of these 3... more than likely you'll need room for 2. __________________ 120G AGA Dual Overflow, 40G B Sump, SRO-2000int, 2 Eheim 200w Heater, Eheim 1262 Return, BRS C & GFO React., BR-1000ss Biopellet React., Tunze 5017 ATO, 2 MP-40wes, DIY 76LED (36RB,24NW,6B,6CW,4Moon)

09/28/2013, 07:04 AM	#11
Indymann99 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Indianapolis Posts: 2,447	Internal vs external for me came down to potential for leak and space. I have not found heat a problem, but I dont run high heat lighting. As for your sump layout. I too do WC from the sump. I have a dedicated Mag5 that sits in the skimmer section of my sump (left in the pict) for WC. However when I shut down my return pump for WC, the DT will continue to drain down to below the overflow, and the return outlets. This raises the level of the sump ABOVE all the baffles so when I do the WC it pulls MORE water than just the chamber the WC pump is in. Hope thats clear? In the picture below of my sump the water level will raise to the PUMP OFF line. This is above all the baffles in the sump. I get about a 20g WC out of my system for each WC. Hope this helps. http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...Csystemjpg.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...MixStorage.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n.../QTinMixRm.jpg http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...DSC_0098-1.jpg __________________ 120g DT 100lbs LR / 200 lbs LS, 45g fuge, VectraM1 Return, Herbie drain, 4x RW-8, 2x AI Hydra 26 w AWM, ASM G2, Apex controller, Apex BoB w floats ATO

09/28/2013, 08:58 AM	#12
AZBigJohn Usually confused... Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,091	I would think, especially with the square sump design and space limitation you have that an internal pump makes more sense. Arguments can be made for both to be better, bit from a space issue alone, I would vote internal for this one. Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express __________________ John Current Tank Info: Currently a 29 gallon all-in-one frag tank and a 210 gallon tank slowly becoming my dream system!

09/27/2013, 09:45 PM	#2
eclarkhb Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 35	I wasn't very clear in the first post, but I would really like to see some opinions & pros/cons regarding internal vs. external pumps for a new reefer where all plumbing has to be in the stand. Thanks!!

09/27/2013, 10:22 PM	#4
oscarinw Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Western Massachusetts Posts: 1,091	My point against external pumps is that an external plumbing can be a source for a leak/flood. However, I definitely considered going external for the sake of having a reliable, silent, efficient and cold pump like the well reviewed Eheim 1262. But I ended up going internal.

09/27/2013, 10:37 PM	#6
eclarkhb Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Huntington Beach, CA Posts: 35	Sump is mislabeled btw - should read 22" wide.

09/27/2013, 10:39 PM	#7
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	I'm an external guy, but here's my view. Internal pumps have less chance of leaks, but take up space in the sump and can add excessive heat to the tank. External pumps are more likely to have leaks, but add less heat and take up no sump space.

09/28/2013, 01:21 AM	#9
jinks Registered Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 581	I think you will take to much space up with an external. With the with of the pump, the pvc fitting on the pump and to the tank, and a quick connection I would think you would be looking at a foot gone. That's only 18in left not the 27 you want. Putting one under a tank less then 4 ft seems like to little space to me.