A question about Hypo Salinity

[daweedski]

Okay So my tank has Tang Turbellarian Disease and I have inverts and corals. I do not want to use copper so I am planning on using hypo salinity. I have a few questions. If I take out all the corals( not attached to rock yet) and inverts can I do a hypo treatment and then reintroduce them after? I have some coral attached to the rock, can I take that rock out or is it possible it has the worms on them? I have a yellow tang two clowns and a orchid dotty back. Already lost a bi color angel. To speed up the process should I QT all my fish inverts and corals and just drop the salinity really low? What do I keep running? what do I take out? after the treatment and readjustment of salinity will I be able to bring coral and invert back? Any tips?Please help!

[vitz]

fw +formalin dip should work, iirc. a quick google search will give you a buncha links to research.

it's not at all connected to the corals. just dipping your fish properly should do the trick.

[daweedski]

Thanks, but do you recommend that I try to remove the disease from the tank or just treat the fish and put it back in. I also heard that if I leave the fish out of the tank for a few months the parasites will die, how long would I have to leave them out.

[vitz]

personally, i'd dip the fish, according to proper protocol (temp/ph match, watching the fish, etc etc) once and place them back, if that's the only issue you have.

black spot is usually fairly benign. i've yet to hear of a fish dying from it, or not 'recovering' from it. (although in a poorly maintained sytem, it certainly has the potential to overwhelm and kill a fish). it's a flatworm, and one dip should knock off all if not >90%, of the bugs from the fish. that's usually enough to allow the fish to get through and clear itself up

i've never placed much stock in that whole 'leave the tank fallow' idea to 'force' a parasite die off from starvation. i've yet to see any indication that it isn't an 'old wives tale'. ime-it's IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate any pathogen completely from a tank, unless you sterilize everything w/bleach, including the fish, coral, and rock

[Rea17]

Ok first of all, hyposalinity is ONLY effective against marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans).

Blach ich, or Tang Turbellarian Disease, is indeed a worm. You can treat it pretty easily in the display tank with PraziPro.

Originally Posted by vitz

i've never placed much stock in that whole 'leave the tank fallow' idea to 'force' a parasite die off from starvation. i've yet to see any indication that it isn't an 'old wives tale'. ime-it's IMPOSSIBLE to eliminate any pathogen completely from a tank, unless you sterilize everything w/bleach, including the fish, coral, and rock

Based on what exactly? If you understand the life cycle of these parasites, then you should understand why a "fallow" will disrupt the life cycle and kill off any parasites not currently attached to a fish, while the fish are treated separately. This is old information, and quite proven, not an old wives tale...

[vitz]

Originally Posted by Rea17

Ok first of all, hyposalinity is ONLY effective against marine ich (Cryptocaryon irritans).

Blach ich, or Tang Turbellarian Disease, is indeed a worm. You can treat it pretty easily in the display tank with PraziPro.



Based on what exactly? If you understand the life cycle of these parasites, then you should understand why a "fallow" will disrupt the life cycle and kill off any parasites not currently attached to a fish, while the fish are treated separately. This is old information, and quite proven, not an old wives tale...

i've seen ich re-appear after 2-3 yrs in tanks that have had ALL the fish hypo'd correctly and 'layed fallow', it's IMPOSSIBLE to completely eliminate ich in any sw system, ime. and it's an old wives tale. the BEST you can do is severely reduce the pop. in the sytem to where no clinical infections will (probably) re-manifest.just because you don't get a re-occurence of an observable 'infection' doesn't meant you eradicated that critter from the system completely. not by a long shot.

y'all need to learn the difference between a 'clinical' and 'subclinical' infection.

[Deinonych]

So, you are stating that cryptocaryon can remain in the encysted (tomont) stage indefinitely? That runs contrary to every article (scholarly or otherwise) I have read about the parasite.

[vitz]

Originally Posted by Deinonych

So, you are stating that cryptocaryon can remain in the encysted (tomont) stage indefinitely? That runs contrary to every article (scholarly or otherwise) I have read about the parasite.

no, that is NOT what i'm saying. i'm saying that ich can reproduce/multiply via your fish as a subclinical (read: non observable or non visually manifesting) infection, and that no one can say anything is completely eliminated from a system simply because they don't observe an outbreak occuring. AND that me, and others, have seen previously 'fallowed' systems show clinical infections years after all fish were dipped and the tank 'fallowed'. properly.

the ONLY way anyone can conclusively state that ANYTHING is completely eliminated from a system is to go over the entire surface of every square millimeter of tank/rock/corals/fish skin/substrate w/a microscope and prove its non existence in that system. period. end of story.

anything else is anecdotal assumption

never did i say anything about indefinite encysting, please don't put words in my mouth

[Rea17]

Uh huh.... "ALL fish correctly hypo'd and tank layed fallow" is what we are working with.

Fallow for what? 4 weeks, 6 weeks? First we are assuming the fallow period was long enough. 8 weeks is the absolute minimum, and ich has even been reported to reappear after that duration. Many experts recommend going 10-12 weeks.

Hypo is very touchy and certainly not the most reliable treatment method. We are also assuming you are as good at diagnosing as you are at deducing. Was the treatment long enough? Was the salinity absolutely correct for the entire duration of the "treatment?" Was the infection observed actually marine ich?

Next, we are assuming that the point of introduction was even a fish! Ich while in the tomont stage can hitchhike in on rock, a frag plug, undersides of corals, the shell of a snail, anything that is wet! To go about this process correctly, everything wet must be quarantined completely independently of the main system so that it can sit fallow before being introduced to the display tank.

We are really getting off topic here since the OP is dealing with black ich, not crypto.

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by vitz

no, that is NOT what i'm saying. i'm saying that ich can reproduce/multiply via your fish as a subclinical (read: non observable or non visually manifesting) infection, and that no one can say anything is completely eliminated from a system simply because they don't observe an outbreak occuring. AND that me, and others, have seen previously 'fallowed' systems show clinical infections years after all fish were dipped and the tank 'fallowed'. properly.

the ONLY way anyone can conclusively state that ANYTHING is completely eliminated from a system is to go over the entire surface of every square millimeter of tank/rock/corals/fish skin/substrate w/a microscope and prove its non existence in that system. period. end of story.

anything else is anecdotal assumption

never did i say anything about indefinite encysting, please don't put words in my mouth

Ah, I understand where you are coming from. Certainly crypt can be present in subclinical infestations. This is one of the primary reasons many people (myself included) proactively treat for the parasite. A fallow period is only effective if the fish are removed AND treated properly for the infection.

I didn't intend to put words in your mouth, so apologies.

[vitz]

Originally Posted by Rea17

Uh huh.... "ALL fish correctly hypo'd and tank layed fallow" is what we are working with.

Fallow for what? 4 weeks, 6 weeks? First we are assuming the fallow period was long enough. 8 weeks is the absolute minimum, and ich has even been reported to reappear after that duration. Many experts recommend going 10-12 weeks.

Hypo is very touchy and certainly not the most reliable treatment method. We are also assuming you are as good at diagnosing as you are at deducing. Was the treatment long enough? Was the salinity absolutely correct for the entire duration of the "treatment?" Was the infection observed actually marine ich?

Next, we are assuming that the point of introduction was even a fish! Ich while in the tomont stage can hitchhike in on rock, a frag plug, undersides of corals, the shell of a snail, anything that is wet! To go about this process correctly, everything wet must be quarantined completely independently of the main system so that it can sit fallow before being introduced to the display tank.

We are really getting off topic here since the OP is dealing with black ich, not crypto.

i've been doing this (sw and reef) for over 30 yrs, and the folks i'm talking about weren't noobs either. when i say *properly* i mean properly. i've got a fair amount of experience in disease prevention and control, both at the hobbyist and wholesaler/retailer level. it's pretty much my specialty

[daweedski]

Okay so I just put two of my fish in a freshwater bath. The yellow tang and now I noticed that my orchid dottyback is scratching itself so I threw it in as well. I bought 4 fl. Oz. of prazipro at my lfs to try to control the "black ich" a little bit. I will follow up with results, thanks for the tips and let me know of any more I need to know!

[daweedski]

And are clown fish immune to turbellarian disease? My to ocellaris clowns are the only not affected, or did they just not catch it?

[Rea17]

Not immune, maybe more resistant. Clowns have a relatively thick mucous coating that can make it more difficult for a parasite to take hold.

Can you post a picture of the infected fish to help with a positive diagnosis?

[daweedski]

Ah that's what I was thinking, I would post pictures but I just did a 10 min freshwater bath so all the black spots fell off if they happen to reappear I will post pictures right away, thanks!

[ericmd]

Originally Posted by vitz

i've seen ich re-appear after 2-3 yrs in tanks that have had ALL the fish hypo'd correctly and 'layed fallow', it's IMPOSSIBLE to completely eliminate ich in any sw system, ime. and it's an old wives tale. the BEST you can do is severely reduce the pop. in the sytem to where no clinical infections will (probably) re-manifest.just because you don't get a re-occurence of an observable 'infection' doesn't meant you eradicated that critter from the system completely. not by a long shot.

y'all need to learn the difference between a 'clinical' and 'subclinical' infection.

Vitz,

In another thread you counterpoint "DrPat" with the following:

"rarely have i read a post where the poster is this sure of his being right, when he/she's so completely wrong.

please provide a link of any kind that establishes that an sg of 1.009 does NOT kill ich. none of your own material, please.

i'll wager i've treated/had more experience with ich and dips, hypo, etc., than you've had by orders of magnitude.

parasites can and will die from hyposalinity 'alone'. (for those that don't remain attached to a host for the entire life cycle). it's the only completely effective non medication option out there for ich, and it works 100% of the time. any instance where it doesn't is purely, completely, unequivocally, beyond any shadow of a doubt, user error

you should educate yourself more about the animals you claim to know about before throwing around the word 'veterinarian', imo. there's gobs of folks on this board alone who know gobs more about fish husbandry and parasites than any 100 veterinarians put together, heh.

true hypo for the proper amount of time kills cryptocaryon. end of story. there's really no room for debate here"

My question for vitz is what is the chance of elimination of ich from a display tank?

I am just trying to sort out much information on the subject and evaluate my own chances of eliminating my problem with crypto. Any and all advice is appreciated.

[vitz]

Originally Posted by ericmd

Vitz,

In another thread you counterpoint "DrPat" with the following:

"rarely have i read a post where the poster is this sure of his being right, when he/she's so completely wrong.

please provide a link of any kind that establishes that an sg of 1.009 does NOT kill ich. none of your own material, please.

i'll wager i've treated/had more experience with ich and dips, hypo, etc., than you've had by orders of magnitude.

parasites can and will die from hyposalinity 'alone'. (for those that don't remain attached to a host for the entire life cycle). it's the only completely effective non medication option out there for ich, and it works 100% of the time. any instance where it doesn't is purely, completely, unequivocally, beyond any shadow of a doubt, user error

you should educate yourself more about the animals you claim to know about before throwing around the word 'veterinarian', imo. there's gobs of folks on this board alone who know gobs more about fish husbandry and parasites than any 100 veterinarians put together, heh.

true hypo for the proper amount of time kills cryptocaryon. end of story. there's really no room for debate here"

My question for vitz is what is the chance of elimination of ich from a display tank?

I am just trying to sort out much information on the subject and evaluate my own chances of eliminating my problem with crypto. Any and all advice is appreciated.

did you read what you quoted ?

from me:
"it's impossible to completely eliminate ich in any sw system, ime."

then you ask: 'what is the chance of elimination of ich from a display tank' ?

help me out here, plz! are you at least reading the very things you're quoting before you start asking questions?

/facepalm

[ericmd]

I am not trying to criticize or call you out on any comment.

I am just trying to learn from your postings. I appreciate your experience.

Yes, I read both of your quotes from different threads many times.

I was referring to your comment about hypo working 100% of the time and when it fails is unequivocally user error.

I really am not an idiot. I was asking for your clarification. I hope hypo works 100% of the time, but if crypto cannot be eliminated from any sw system, then I start to lose hope.

[Rea17]

Originally Posted by ericmd

I am not trying to criticize or call you out on any comment.

I am just trying to learn from your postings. I appreciate your experience.

Yes, I read both of your quotes from different threads many times.

I was referring to your comment about hypo working 100% of the time and when it fails is unequivocally user error.

I really am not an idiot. I was asking for your clarification. I hope hypo works 100% of the time, but if crypto cannot be eliminated from any sw system, then I start to lose hope.

If your objective is to learn, read the stickies at the top of this forum and the posts from MrTuskfish and Snorvich. It is actually quite easy to eliminate marine ich from a system and maintain that status, through PROPER treatment and quarantine.

[Crimson]

I had ich once in the DT, removed the fish and let the tank fallow for 9 weeks. I also did what seachem suggested after the fish were treated and "cleared" I would pour some of the QT water (that has no copper left in the water column) into the DT and wait a few weeks more. The theory was that ich can "sense" fish scent and hatch.

This hobby has three basic parts: 1/3 luck, 1/3 theory, 1/3 proven fact, and some witchcraft peppered in. I think I will sig this lol.

[Mrscribbled]

Three month fallow period will give 99.9 percent effective erradication of ich. Nothing in this hobby is 100 percent effective. I've heard of copper resistant strains, I've heard of ich remaining attached to a fish during the cyst stage. I have experienced hypo failure, I've also experience a 9 week fallow period in which I ended up bleaching the system.

[vitz]

to further attempt to explain the point i'm trying to make.

having a tank/system run 20 yrs with the same fish and never having an 'outbreak', or 'clinical infection' does NOT = actually eliminating the parasite from that tank/system. it's more than possible, and likely, that the parasite is in everyone's tank, regardless, and simply is reproducing on a low level 'infection' basis. happens all the time, w/ many many pathogens.often, once a fish is triggered to 'fight back', on its own, or w/an aquarist's help, it will not succumb to many things a second time, or be far more resilient fighting it off. (pers.obs.).

i'd just like folks to be able to make that distinction, and to not assume the reason for a lack of outbreak is attributable to a guaranteed lack of the pathogen. (ich can cycle indefinitely w/out ever being observable to the aquarist). you can't establish that on the level of the unaided eye

that's all i'm saying.

[Mrscribbled]

Originally Posted by vitz

to further attempt to explain the point i'm trying to make.

having a tank/system run 20 yrs with the same fish and never having an 'outbreak', or 'clinical infection' does NOT = actually eliminating the parasite from that tank/system. it's more than possible, and likely, that the parasite is in everyone's tank, regardless, and simply is reproducing on a low level 'infection' basis. happens all the time, w/ many many pathogens.often, once a fish is triggered to 'fight back', on its own, or w/an aquarist's help, it will not succumb to many things a second time, or be far more resilient fighting it off. (pers.obs.).

i'd just like folks to be able to make that distinction, and to not assume the reason for a lack of outbreak is attributable to a guaranteed lack of the pathogen. (ich can cycle indefinitely w/out ever being observable to the aquarist). you can't establish that on the level of the unaided eye

that's all i'm saying.

There is a difference between assuming and knowing a tank is parasite free. I know my tanks are ich free, I know of other tanks that are assumed to be ich free, but not for sure, I also know of tanks that have had ich but still manage to thrive.

To my knowledge stating that ALL tanks have ich is a proven myth.

[vitz]

you know your tanks are ich outbreak free, nothing more. you do not have the tools at your disposal to make any claim about the lack of presence of an organism that size. it's not really an arguable point

you have colds, flus, and all sorts of other assorted 'bad' microbes in your body all of the time, 24/7. but you're not always sick. you remain 'outbreak free' while still harboring many pathogens :idea!:
and you do know what 'more than possible', and 'likely' mean, yes ?

[Mrscribbled]

Parasites are completely different than airborn pathogens. I am 100 percent possitive my display tanks are ich free. I will agree to disagree on this topic.