Can I sustain a mandarin long-term?

maxfrenkel19 · 10/22/2013, 05:16 PM

Hello,

I have done plenty of research on mandarins, both from experts and from other hobbyists' experience. I feel that my tank is right on the border of being able to sustain a mandarin. I would really like to hear the opinion of some experts here regarding my particular tank specs:

40 gallon tank, 30-40 lbs LR (Running for 6-9 Months)
Fish: 2 small clowns, 1 small coral beauty, 1 small 6-line, tomorrow will buy 1 starry blenny.
Critters: Various snails/hermits (understocked), cleaner shrimp, softies/1LPS

20 gallon sump
Has 10g(ish) refugium chamber w/ LR, huge chaeto clump, and many pods. 24 hr light for max chaeto growth. Urchin also lives here "in jail" for his crimes against coral.

The majority of people have recommended a 75g tank to house a mandarin, but I've heard this number goes down with a sump/refugium. My sump is crawling with copepods...I've been told these inevitably make it to my main tank, but I never really SEE any in there.

So that's my case.
Pros: I have a refugium with bustling pod population, I have little fish with a low bioload, and I have plenty of time that I could dedicate to mandarin survival (hand-feeding, pod condo rotation and breeding, etc).
Cons: Generally speaking my tank size is not recommended to house a mandarin. The 6-line will likely compete w/ the mandarin for pods, although he is little.

Apologize for the long post, tried to get all the relevant information in here. I would love to hear your opinion on whether or not I could sustain a mandarin. I personally think that, if I find one that will eat frozen food (will ask for demonstration in-store), and dedicate an area of the main tank to pod propogation, I could manage. However, I will defer to the opinion of experts...it may just have to wait for a bigger tank in years to come.

dppitone · 10/22/2013, 05:47 PM

The best thing to do is train it to eat frozen and pellets. You should research how to do this on here and youtube may have something. Folks do it all the time. I never trained mine and it lives off the reef, but if I was putting one in now I'd train it.

Tochtli · 10/22/2013, 07:26 PM

Train one to eat frozen and you could keep it in a smaller tank than yours.

maxfrenkel19 · 10/22/2013, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dppitone

The best thing to do is train it to eat frozen and pellets. You should research how to do this on here and youtube may have something. Folks do it all the time. I never trained mine and it lives off the reef, but if I was putting one in now I'd train it.

Thanks for the tips. I have researched some way to help them eat frozen food. However, it was my understanding that the frozen food was more of a supplement to the copepods. I've heard mandarins need to feed almost constantly, and I could only really afford to feed him once or twice a day.

I do appreciate the feedback!

ReeferBill · 10/22/2013, 07:34 PM

I have always kept a red scooter mandarin and it eats frozen mysis and new life spectrum pellets, it is in my 46 gal bow with a hundred lbs of live rock in a 38 gallon filter . You can always add pods or live foods in the beginning and then wean him or her onto frozen foods....

fairladyZ · 10/22/2013, 07:35 PM

i got a mandarin a few months ago and she's been doing great, i haven't tried to train her to eat frozen but i have seen her eat frozen brine, if it catches her eye and is moving slow enough she will eat it. I was very happy to see this to say the least, so if you read up on teaching them and you can get some brine close to them and moving slow enough they can see it then catch it you should have success. I know this is not the normal but has worked for me with my mandarin

EllieSuz · 10/22/2013, 07:38 PM

The Sixline will compete for pods. I kept a healthy Mandarin in a 40 gallon tank with a refugium, but I did not have any other fish that hunt pods. I personally feel that your tank is fully stocked with the fish you have, including the Blenny. I have fewer fish in a 60 gallon tank. Would you consider getting rid of the Sixline? If I were you I'd keep the Wrasse or the Mandarin, not both.

dppitone · 10/22/2013, 07:44 PM

You may see amphipods at night in the rock with a flashlight. Copepods are generally very tiny and impossible for me to see (with my old eyes).

snorvich · 10/22/2013, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllieSuz

The Sixline will compete for pods. I kept a healthy Mandarin in a 40 gallon tank with a refugium, but I did not have any other fish that hunt pods. I personally feel that your tank is fully stocked with the fish you have, including the Blenny. I have fewer fish in a 60 gallon tank. Would you consider getting rid of the Sixline? If I were you I'd keep the Wrasse or the Mandarin, not both.

This. And the sixline will win.

maxfrenkel19 · 10/22/2013, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReeferBill

I have always kept a red scooter mandarin and it eats frozen mysis and new life spectrum pellets, it is in my 46 gal bow with a hundred lbs of live rock in a 38 gallon filter . You can always add pods or live foods in the beginning and then wean him or her onto frozen foods....

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairladyZ

i got a mandarin a few months ago and she's been doing great, i haven't tried to train her to eat frozen but i have seen her eat frozen brine, if it catches her eye and is moving slow enough she will eat it. I was very happy to see this to say the least, so if you read up on teaching them and you can get some brine close to them and moving slow enough they can see it then catch it you should have success. I know this is not the normal but has worked for me with my mandarin

Glad both of you are having success with frozen food, these are the stories that have kept my hopes up. Thanks for sharing

Quote:

Originally Posted by EllieSuz

The Sixline will compete for pods. I kept a healthy Mandarin in a 40 gallon tank with a refugium, but I did not have any other fish that hunt pods. I personally feel that your tank is fully stocked with the fish you have, including the Blenny. I have fewer fish in a 60 gallon tank. Would you consider getting rid of the Sixline? If I were you I'd keep the Wrasse or the Mandarin, not both.

This is pretty much what I feared... I would not be willing to give up the six line. I wish I had a better gauge on whether the two stories mentioned above are the norm, or the exception. Obviously can't always trust the LFS...and the reviews I've received online are so mixed.

I do appreciate your input guys, I'll keep thinking.

dppitone · 10/22/2013, 10:16 PM

Norms are hard to come by in this hobby. Especially when it comes to fish behavior. You're going to read anecdotes and best guesses most of the time. If it interests you, then give it a try. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you can make a change.

maxfrenkel19 · 10/22/2013, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dppitone

Norms are hard to come by in this hobby. Especially when it comes to fish behavior. You're going to read anecdotes and best guesses most of the time. If it interests you, then give it a try. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you can make a change.

That is true...if it is clearly not working, I would happily return him to the store. Do you think it will become very apparent if the mandarin were not getting enough food? Then I could give it a shot, and return him if I fail. What I am terrified of is him starving to death without me knowing.

dppitone · 10/22/2013, 11:23 PM

He would get skinny. Try to train him though, I heard it's pretty easy. Then you don't have to worry. He'll pick up pellets or frozen off the sand bed.

greg1786 · 10/23/2013, 12:55 AM

I have had my spotted mandarin for a year and one month. Ge started out in a 55 gallon with 20 gallon sump/fuge. I started seeding my tank with pods about 3 months before I bought my mandarin. I already had a decent pod population but once you see them eat all day you never feel like theres enough lol. I added a pod pack every two weeks or so even up to two months after I had the little guy. He lived very happily in that 55 for almost 6 months hunting all day long and grew quickly. I moved him into my current 125 around february. About two months in he began eating live brine shrimp. From there he began eating frozen mysis and now he actively feeds as if he is just another fish at feeding time. He eats live blackworms, new era marine pellets, PE mysis, cyclopeeze, and new life spectrum pelets, and pods of course. He has more than doubled in size and is hands down the fattest mandarin ive ever seen. He literally looks prego after I feed the tank he is so fat! I think that it would be wise to get rid of the six line, but if you must keep him, Id suggest buying a mandarin only if it will accept prepared foods. Only because mandarins can decimate even the healthiest pod populations in small/ medium tanks and with a second pod hunter, i think your rolling the dice. Many online retailers offer mandarins that are raised on and taught to eat frozen at a very young age, thats where I would start if I were you. Good luck I hope it works out for you they are one of the coolest little guys to watch!

Nembo · 10/23/2013, 04:15 AM

I've had a mandarin for the last 4 years and it's doing well.Although you need one that will take frozen foods podlife is also part of it's diet.I think a mandarin will struggle to survive longterm in your tank.Your 6 line wrasse is also a pod hunter and is much quicker and efficient than any mandarin.If any sort of podlife still exists in your tank it will be in very small numbers.

Dissy · 10/23/2013, 07:04 AM

I have one in a 29 gallon tank.. Her only tankmate is a maroon clown, and some corals. I have a seperate pod culture going, buy her pods, and she eats frozen. She has no competition for food, which helps.

I don't think it's a matter of just returning it to the store if it doesn't work out. I think you should be of the mindset that it *will* work out before you buy it, because you're willing to center your entire tank around it, which means it needs to have enough food to eat constantly, while you're trying to train it to eat frozen, and if it never eats frozen, you're willing to put out the constant supply of money to buy more pods.

But I wouldn't buy one while you have anything else that eats pods or picks at life form on rock.

I've only had mine for about 4 months now, but when I bought her she was so tiny and skinny, nobody thought she'd make it a month. Her starvation lines are gone, she's out in the open all the time, hangs with the clown, and seems really happy. My backup plan if my pod farm crashed, and she stops eating frozen is to haul my butt to the LFS which is an hour and a half away, and buy her more pods.

I also over feed the tank, which keeps the pod supply higher than it normally would be, and also do water changes twice a week, rather than once every week or two like most people.

(I tried to get a pic of her belly, but she doesn't see it necessary to cooperate with the camera.) :/

maxfrenkel19 · 10/23/2013, 08:28 AM

Thank you all for your feedback. Based on some of your success stories, it seems that it IS possible to keep a mandarin in my size tank. However, it seems that with my 6-line, my chances aren't so great. I think I will hold off on the mandarin for now...it's always nice to have something to look forward to in a future tank!

I also heard 6-lines can become tank bullys as they mature...if he starts to show too much aggression, he may get swapped for a mandarin.

Thanks again for all your feedback.

MondoBongo · 10/23/2013, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxfrenkel19

I also heard 6-lines can become tank bullys as they mature...if he starts to show too much aggression, he may get swapped for a mandarin.

my sixline went back a few months ago. he would torment my poor clownfish, and i have little doubt he would have tormented my mandarin too.

i traded him back in and waited a few weeks to get my mandy. the LFS was kind enough to ween her on to frozen for me.

she's not that interested in most frozen food though. cyclop-eeze to a point, myses sometimes, and the occasional pellet. however. what she absolutely LOVES is nutramar-ova.

i feed her about 1mL of it a day to supplement what she finds in the tank. i also culture her pods, and have a feeding station set up where i drop daily doses of brine shrimp nauplii. she has been plumping up well and starting to get quite the Buddha belly.

my tank is a 75 gallon with a nice load of rock in the sump. i'm planning on adding a fuge in the future.

it gives me peace of mind to know that i have multiple options for feeding her. i have heard stories about mandys some times deciding they don't like frozen anymore. so it lets me rest easier knowing i have many tools in my toolbox for feeding her.

maxfrenkel19 · 10/23/2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

my sixline went back a few months ago. he would torment my poor clownfish, and i have little doubt he would have tormented my mandarin too.

i traded him back in and waited a few weeks to get my mandy. the LFS was kind enough to ween her on to frozen for me.

I have already seen my 6-line bully the clowns a couple times. For now, it is infrequent enough that I don't worry, mostly just when the clowns are too near the 6-line's frogspawn. Will definitely keep an eye open though.

What a great LFS you have!

MondoBongo · 10/23/2013, 06:55 PM

Yeah they are an awesome store. Owned by a young couple who started as enthusiasts and decided to make the jump in to the business.

I buy almost 100% of my stuff there. Dry goods, livestock, food, equipment, etc... So I have built a very good relationship with them over the past year and a half.

I just caught my Mandy tonight sitting on top of her feeder, pecking away at brine nauplii. It made me happy to see. Up till now I've seen her catching them down stream but never observed her sitting on top munching.

10/22/2013, 05:16 PM	#1
maxfrenkel19 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 18	Can I sustain a mandarin long-term? Hello, I have done plenty of research on mandarins, both from experts and from other hobbyists' experience. I feel that my tank is right on the border of being able to sustain a mandarin. I would really like to hear the opinion of some experts here regarding my particular tank specs: 40 gallon tank, 30-40 lbs LR (Running for 6-9 Months) Fish: 2 small clowns, 1 small coral beauty, 1 small 6-line, tomorrow will buy 1 starry blenny. Critters: Various snails/hermits (understocked), cleaner shrimp, softies/1LPS 20 gallon sump Has 10g(ish) refugium chamber w/ LR, huge chaeto clump, and many pods. 24 hr light for max chaeto growth. Urchin also lives here "in jail" for his crimes against coral. The majority of people have recommended a 75g tank to house a mandarin, but I've heard this number goes down with a sump/refugium. My sump is crawling with copepods...I've been told these inevitably make it to my main tank, but I never really SEE any in there. So that's my case. Pros: I have a refugium with bustling pod population, I have little fish with a low bioload, and I have plenty of time that I could dedicate to mandarin survival (hand-feeding, pod condo rotation and breeding, etc). Cons: Generally speaking my tank size is not recommended to house a mandarin. The 6-line will likely compete w/ the mandarin for pods, although he is little. Apologize for the long post, tried to get all the relevant information in here. I would love to hear your opinion on whether or not I could sustain a mandarin. I personally think that, if I find one that will eat frozen food (will ask for demonstration in-store), and dedicate an area of the main tank to pod propogation, I could manage. However, I will defer to the opinion of experts...it may just have to wait for a bigger tank in years to come.

10/22/2013, 07:34 PM	#5
ReeferBill Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 1,906	I have always kept a red scooter mandarin and it eats frozen mysis and new life spectrum pellets, it is in my 46 gal bow with a hundred lbs of live rock in a 38 gallon filter . You can always add pods or live foods in the beginning and then wean him or her onto frozen foods.... __________________ I never realized I had to be a Chemist and a Marine Biologist to maintain a Reef Aquarium!

10/22/2013, 07:38 PM	#7
EllieSuz Premium Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 3,858	The Sixline will compete for pods. I kept a healthy Mandarin in a 40 gallon tank with a refugium, but I did not have any other fish that hunt pods. I personally feel that your tank is fully stocked with the fish you have, including the Blenny. I have fewer fish in a 60 gallon tank. Would you consider getting rid of the Sixline? If I were you I'd keep the Wrasse or the Mandarin, not both. __________________ "You can't learn this hobby one question at a time." (Mr. Tuskfish) Eileen Current Tank Info: I'm out of the hobby, but used to have a60 gal. reef, refugium in sump, Internal Mag 9 return, SC 302 skimmer, two Maxi-Jet 1200's modded, four bulb T5 Lighting, Reefkeeper Lite Controller with three PC4's, Little Fishes GFO reactor.

10/23/2013, 06:55 PM	#20
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	Yeah they are an awesome store. Owned by a young couple who started as enthusiasts and decided to make the jump in to the business. I buy almost 100% of my stuff there. Dry goods, livestock, food, equipment, etc... So I have built a very good relationship with them over the past year and a half. I just caught my Mandy tonight sitting on top of her feeder, pecking away at brine nauplii. It made me happy to see. Up till now I've seen her catching them down stream but never observed her sitting on top munching. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

10/22/2013, 05:47 PM	#2
dppitone Registered Member. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Queen Village, Phila. Posts: 1,697	The best thing to do is train it to eat frozen and pellets. You should research how to do this on here and youtube may have something. Folks do it all the time. I never trained mine and it lives off the reef, but if I was putting one in now I'd train it.

10/22/2013, 07:26 PM	#3
Tochtli Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: USA Posts: 23	Train one to eat frozen and you could keep it in a smaller tank than yours.

10/22/2013, 07:35 PM	#6
fairladyZ Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 288	i got a mandarin a few months ago and she's been doing great, i haven't tried to train her to eat frozen but i have seen her eat frozen brine, if it catches her eye and is moving slow enough she will eat it. I was very happy to see this to say the least, so if you read up on teaching them and you can get some brine close to them and moving slow enough they can see it then catch it you should have success. I know this is not the normal but has worked for me with my mandarin

10/22/2013, 07:44 PM	#8
dppitone Registered Member. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Queen Village, Phila. Posts: 1,697	You may see amphipods at night in the rock with a flashlight. Copepods are generally very tiny and impossible for me to see (with my old eyes).

10/22/2013, 10:16 PM	#11
dppitone Registered Member. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Queen Village, Phila. Posts: 1,697	Norms are hard to come by in this hobby. Especially when it comes to fish behavior. You're going to read anecdotes and best guesses most of the time. If it interests you, then give it a try. If it works, great. If it doesn't, you can make a change.

10/22/2013, 11:23 PM	#13
dppitone Registered Member. Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Queen Village, Phila. Posts: 1,697	He would get skinny. Try to train him though, I heard it's pretty easy. Then you don't have to worry. He'll pick up pellets or frozen off the sand bed.

10/23/2013, 12:55 AM	#14
greg1786 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Baltimore md Posts: 1,241	I have had my spotted mandarin for a year and one month. Ge started out in a 55 gallon with 20 gallon sump/fuge. I started seeding my tank with pods about 3 months before I bought my mandarin. I already had a decent pod population but once you see them eat all day you never feel like theres enough lol. I added a pod pack every two weeks or so even up to two months after I had the little guy. He lived very happily in that 55 for almost 6 months hunting all day long and grew quickly. I moved him into my current 125 around february. About two months in he began eating live brine shrimp. From there he began eating frozen mysis and now he actively feeds as if he is just another fish at feeding time. He eats live blackworms, new era marine pellets, PE mysis, cyclopeeze, and new life spectrum pelets, and pods of course. He has more than doubled in size and is hands down the fattest mandarin ive ever seen. He literally looks prego after I feed the tank he is so fat! I think that it would be wise to get rid of the six line, but if you must keep him, Id suggest buying a mandarin only if it will accept prepared foods. Only because mandarins can decimate even the healthiest pod populations in small/ medium tanks and with a second pod hunter, i think your rolling the dice. Many online retailers offer mandarins that are raised on and taught to eat frozen at a very young age, thats where I would start if I were you. Good luck I hope it works out for you they are one of the coolest little guys to watch!

10/23/2013, 04:15 AM	#15
Nembo Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Posts: 55	I've had a mandarin for the last 4 years and it's doing well.Although you need one that will take frozen foods podlife is also part of it's diet.I think a mandarin will struggle to survive longterm in your tank.Your 6 line wrasse is also a pod hunter and is much quicker and efficient than any mandarin.If any sort of podlife still exists in your tank it will be in very small numbers.

10/23/2013, 07:04 AM	#16
Dissy Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 257	I have one in a 29 gallon tank.. Her only tankmate is a maroon clown, and some corals. I have a seperate pod culture going, buy her pods, and she eats frozen. She has no competition for food, which helps. I don't think it's a matter of just returning it to the store if it doesn't work out. I think you should be of the mindset that it will work out before you buy it, because you're willing to center your entire tank around it, which means it needs to have enough food to eat constantly, while you're trying to train it to eat frozen, and if it never eats frozen, you're willing to put out the constant supply of money to buy more pods. But I wouldn't buy one while you have anything else that eats pods or picks at life form on rock. I've only had mine for about 4 months now, but when I bought her she was so tiny and skinny, nobody thought she'd make it a month. Her starvation lines are gone, she's out in the open all the time, hangs with the clown, and seems really happy. My backup plan if my pod farm crashed, and she stops eating frozen is to haul my butt to the LFS which is an hour and a half away, and buy her more pods. I also over feed the tank, which keeps the pod supply higher than it normally would be, and also do water changes twice a week, rather than once every week or two like most people. (I tried to get a pic of her belly, but she doesn't see it necessary to cooperate with the camera.) :/

10/23/2013, 08:28 AM	#17
maxfrenkel19 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 18	Thank you all for your feedback. Based on some of your success stories, it seems that it IS possible to keep a mandarin in my size tank. However, it seems that with my 6-line, my chances aren't so great. I think I will hold off on the mandarin for now...it's always nice to have something to look forward to in a future tank! I also heard 6-lines can become tank bullys as they mature...if he starts to show too much aggression, he may get swapped for a mandarin. Thanks again for all your feedback.