Precipitation from Randy's Alkalinity Recipe

Modaq · 12/15/2013, 04:21 AM

Dear Randy et al

Addition of the alkalinity part of your recipe (great article by the way, many thanks), causes smokey, and then globular precipitation when added to my aquarium. The water goes a bit cloudy, and the skimmer goes crazy, but by the morning the water is crystal clear, and the skimmer has a milky liquid in it. When dripped experimentally back into the tank, this liquid goes smokey, and then globular all over again! So I am deducing that the skimmer is removing the alkalinity supplement - is this likely?

Magnesium is stable at around 1275.

Over the past few days calcium has been stable at about 425, and alkalinity appears to be stable at 7.7dKH. I have only tested when the water is clear, and generally at the same time in the evening.

I have been using Seachem calcium (as I have a bottle of it, but am planning to move over to your calcium recipe when it is finished) to provide a modest 4mg/L of calcium per day (which I calculate to be an addition of 7ml for my 250L system), and from reading your articles inferred an alkalinity recipe addition of 19ml a day, based on this modest calcium demand. Perhaps this is where I am going wrong.

I have to say, that since adding the supplements in this new regime, the few corals that I have, have been looking pretty perky, and nothing has reacted badly.

Clearly, though, it is not optimal to be in a situation where I am adding something, only for it to then precipitate, and then be removed by the skimmer.

Am I simply adding too much of both, by overestimating the calcium and bicarbonate demand? Should I halve the amounts and see what happens?

Any help you could provide would be massively appreciated. Thanks again, your output is outstandingly authoritative and helpful!

Yours

Joe

barjam · 12/15/2013, 12:55 PM

Are you using the "baked" soda ash version or the normal one? Soda ash will do that and maybe you need to add it slower (drop at a time).

Modaq · 12/15/2013, 02:54 PM

I'm using baked sodium bicarbonate, as per the instructions for Recipe 1, part 2. Assuming that sodium bicarbonate does not form into sodium carbonate on baking, I'm thinking that they are different chemicals.

Boston21 · 12/15/2013, 02:59 PM

When I dose my Randy's Alk (baked) its only cloudy for a mer couple seconds then everything goes back to normal. Although I am just dosing a Nano so idk.

Modaq · 12/15/2013, 03:18 PM

Okay, it being evening here, I just added it to the tank, but first mixed it really well in a cup of tank water - I poured this opaque fluid into the weir and then waited for the sump to cloud but nothing happened. It appears to have dissolved fully in that time, in a mere couple of seconds.

Will have to wait for the morning to see if there is major pickup in the skimmer.

Also, I would love to know what is going on chemically here, particularly with application for automated systems.

barjam · 12/15/2013, 04:23 PM

Baking sodium bicarbonate does turn it into sodium carbonate (soda ash).

When it hits the water it raises the PH massively where it enters the water and causes (if I remember correctly) magnesium hydroxide to temporarily come out of solution. I use soda ash on my 120 and add it drop at a time.

One of Randy's articles goes into great detail about this. It might even be in the DIY two article you were reading.

bertoni · 12/16/2013, 03:10 AM

Yes, what you're seeing likely is the temporary precipitation of magnesium hydroxide. There's a picture just above the section on this topic in this article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm#6

Modaq · 12/16/2013, 05:31 AM

Thanks very much guys, for your responses.

This morning all was clear - no grey/milky pickup in the skimmer. It would appear that pre-mixing it with a bit of tank water has solved the issue.

It's as if, if the solution is allowed to go to the globular/snowflake stage, it will both cloud the tank and be picked up by the skimmer - possibly attaching to another substance in the water? But if pre-mixed in tank water, it only goes to the brief smokey stage and then disappears. Why is this - any thoughts?

Daimyo68 · 12/16/2013, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modaq

Thanks very much guys, for your responses.

This morning all was clear - no grey/milky pickup in the skimmer. It would appear that pre-mixing it with a bit of tank water has solved the issue.

It's as if, if the solution is allowed to go to the globular/snowflake stage, it will both cloud the tank and be picked up by the skimmer - possibly attaching to another substance in the water? But if pre-mixed in tank water, it only goes to the brief smokey stage and then disappears. Why is this - any thoughts?

Adding it to a cup or so of tank water is helping to dilute the concentration and keep it from clouding up when you dump it in. I would suggest adding it into your return pump chamber, as this will help to "mix" it as the solution goes through the pump.

Mine drips into the sump just in front of the return pump intake. I gets cloudy/clumpy, but by time it's gone through the pump and plumbing to the tank, there are no signs of it.

lnevo · 12/16/2013, 07:58 AM

+1 thats where mine drips too. No issues.

bertoni · 12/16/2013, 10:33 PM

The magnesium hydroxide will redissolve over time, but the exact rate depends on how much flow is present. More flow will increase the rate of dissolution.

Modaq · 12/17/2013, 05:27 AM

To the responses above: acknowledged and thanks.

I repeated the dose last night, first mixing it well with tank water and again there was no problem.

When you guys say drip, is this from automated dosing?

thegrun · 12/17/2013, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modaq

To the responses above: acknowledged and thanks.

I repeated the dose last night, first mixing it well with tank water and again there was no problem.

When you guys say drip, is this from automated dosing?

It can be automated with a pump or simply use 1/4" tubing with a valve and reduce the flow to a slow drip.

12/15/2013, 04:21 AM	#1
Modaq Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: London, UK Posts: 12	Precipitation from Randy's Alkalinity Recipe Dear Randy et al Addition of the alkalinity part of your recipe (great article by the way, many thanks), causes smokey, and then globular precipitation when added to my aquarium. The water goes a bit cloudy, and the skimmer goes crazy, but by the morning the water is crystal clear, and the skimmer has a milky liquid in it. When dripped experimentally back into the tank, this liquid goes smokey, and then globular all over again! So I am deducing that the skimmer is removing the alkalinity supplement - is this likely? Magnesium is stable at around 1275. Over the past few days calcium has been stable at about 425, and alkalinity appears to be stable at 7.7dKH. I have only tested when the water is clear, and generally at the same time in the evening. I have been using Seachem calcium (as I have a bottle of it, but am planning to move over to your calcium recipe when it is finished) to provide a modest 4mg/L of calcium per day (which I calculate to be an addition of 7ml for my 250L system), and from reading your articles inferred an alkalinity recipe addition of 19ml a day, based on this modest calcium demand. Perhaps this is where I am going wrong. I have to say, that since adding the supplements in this new regime, the few corals that I have, have been looking pretty perky, and nothing has reacted badly. Clearly, though, it is not optimal to be in a situation where I am adding something, only for it to then precipitate, and then be removed by the skimmer. Am I simply adding too much of both, by overestimating the calcium and bicarbonate demand? Should I halve the amounts and see what happens? Any help you could provide would be massively appreciated. Thanks again, your output is outstandingly authoritative and helpful! Yours Joe

12/15/2013, 02:59 PM	#4
Boston21 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Ypsilanti, MI Posts: 452	When I dose my Randy's Alk (baked) its only cloudy for a mer couple seconds then everything goes back to normal. Although I am just dosing a Nano so idk. __________________ Currently Running: 10G Pico AIO 20G High Mixed Reef - ASM Mini G, Taotronics 120W, 10G Sump, Mag 7 R-Pump, 200W Heater, Purigen, Carbon, ESHOPPs Float Valve, Apex Jr, Smart Wave

12/16/2013, 03:10 AM	#7
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Yes, what you're seeing likely is the temporary precipitation of magnesium hydroxide. There's a picture just above the section on this topic in this article: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-07/rhf/index.htm#6 __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

12/16/2013, 10:33 PM	#11
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	The magnesium hydroxide will redissolve over time, but the exact rate depends on how much flow is present. More flow will increase the rate of dissolution. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

12/15/2013, 12:55 PM	#2
barjam Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,695	Are you using the "baked" soda ash version or the normal one? Soda ash will do that and maybe you need to add it slower (drop at a time).

12/15/2013, 02:54 PM	#3
Modaq Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: London, UK Posts: 12	I'm using baked sodium bicarbonate, as per the instructions for Recipe 1, part 2. Assuming that sodium bicarbonate does not form into sodium carbonate on baking, I'm thinking that they are different chemicals.

12/15/2013, 03:18 PM	#5
Modaq Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: London, UK Posts: 12	Okay, it being evening here, I just added it to the tank, but first mixed it really well in a cup of tank water - I poured this opaque fluid into the weir and then waited for the sump to cloud but nothing happened. It appears to have dissolved fully in that time, in a mere couple of seconds. Will have to wait for the morning to see if there is major pickup in the skimmer. Also, I would love to know what is going on chemically here, particularly with application for automated systems.

12/15/2013, 04:23 PM	#6
barjam Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,695	Baking sodium bicarbonate does turn it into sodium carbonate (soda ash). When it hits the water it raises the PH massively where it enters the water and causes (if I remember correctly) magnesium hydroxide to temporarily come out of solution. I use soda ash on my 120 and add it drop at a time. One of Randy's articles goes into great detail about this. It might even be in the DIY two article you were reading.

12/16/2013, 05:31 AM	#8
Modaq Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: London, UK Posts: 12	Thanks very much guys, for your responses. This morning all was clear - no grey/milky pickup in the skimmer. It would appear that pre-mixing it with a bit of tank water has solved the issue. It's as if, if the solution is allowed to go to the globular/snowflake stage, it will both cloud the tank and be picked up by the skimmer - possibly attaching to another substance in the water? But if pre-mixed in tank water, it only goes to the brief smokey stage and then disappears. Why is this - any thoughts?

12/16/2013, 07:58 AM	#10
lnevo Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 377	+1 thats where mine drips too. No issues.

12/17/2013, 05:27 AM	#12
Modaq Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: London, UK Posts: 12	To the responses above: acknowledged and thanks. I repeated the dose last night, first mixing it well with tank water and again there was no problem. When you guys say drip, is this from automated dosing?