New Reefer

[fishn49ers]

Well after researching and second guessing myself 20x i am taking the plunge into reef aquariums (partly because my girl bought me a tank for christmas, promptly returned that one and got the right one...i think)

well about myself i kept cichlids for 2 years, i had a fantastic 150 gallon tropheus duboisi tank that i miss dearly...besides the water changes.

The plan: I returned the 50 gallon purchased for me and worked out a deal at the LFS and ended up now with a 65g Tall tank. Dimensions are 36' length, 18' wide, and 25' tall. It has a corner over flow with 2 holes drilled out one is larger than the other and came with assorted bulk heads and odd piece of equipment.

Now comes the questions and after almost 3 months of reading and watching you tube videos there is a lot, but number one thing is im going to take my time with this tank, its my baby i want everything i do to have a purpose and be a well thought out decision in the long run. My goal is a mixed reef of softies and LPS i think im in love with zoas, some fish of course and maybe a beautiful clam.

1. Sump - size? i was thinking 30g if it fits under the stand. bioballs>refugium>skimmer/pump out? For the refugium miracle mud looks nice, or some sand and live rock? thoughts, pros and cons?
I can get one custom built on craigslist for what i feel is a fair price compared to the stores. Or if anyone knows of a decent priced quality sump for my tank i would love to look into that as well.
Also reccomendation on a pump size and model would be great.

2. Skimmer - i was thinking cadlights or reef octopus. (this tank is in living room near TV i heard the cadlights is quiet, is the reef octopus loud? Durability and functionality of both sumps? Recommendation on a model size for my tank would be most appreciated. Wanted to skimmer to sit inside sump.

3. Lighting - Well i spoke to rick over at reef radiance and we came up with a few ideas but im just so hesitant to commit on anything. maybe rick or someone else could break down the difference between the DM-155e and the Lumentek pro 180, im torn on which to get and what will provide the right amount of coverage for the tank. 36L18W25H. I like having hte option of maybe some day dabbling into SPS if that makes any difference in the suggestions

4. Dry cycle vs live cycle - i get so nervous hearing all the stories about hitchhikers in peoples tank and the LFS i was going to get live rock from had corals with what i believed were called bristle worms under the rock, just so nervous about getting stuff in my tank i dont want and was wondering peoples thoughts, i dont mind waiting 2 months for my rock to become alive if it means anything better for the tank in the long run, i also like the prices on dry live rock and was thinking i could get some of that nice pukani dry live rock or the fiji dry rock.

5. Sand - size and amount would be great, i was hoping to get a sand sifting type fish at some point so was wondering what is largest size i can go to keep him happy and myself during a water change/cleaning.

6. water/water changes - my LFS collects fresh saltwater and sells it its 75c per gallon, anyones thoughts on using fresh seawater, it sounds like a great idea and i love not having to mix my own stuff and it will prevent me from having to get a RO DOI thinger. I figure i can buy the filtered water in large jugs for loss replacement and use the fresh saltwater for my changes.

7. coral and fish - i dont think i even want to get into these decisions yet my focus right now is to get the tank up and running cycled and stable then being this phase....

oh ya need to set up a QT as well, i dont think my girl knew what she was getting us into when she bought me a fish tank and got me started on tanks again.

Any information thoughts wisdom would be most appreciated, im 100% green behind the ears on saltwater tanks but i want to do this right and take good care of my corals and fish. Thanks for having such a great community here i learned a lot spending time reading on the forums.

[shaginwagon13]

1) No Bioballs. Eventually they will become dirty and becomes a trap debris/detritus and become Nitrate factories. Nitrates produce are one of the main causes in producing algae blooms (along with excess feeding, and excess light). For a 65 gallon tank, a 30-35gallon sump/refiugium would work. I would try to incorporate maybe a portion of that sump (maybe 5 gallons) and dedicate it to a refiugium. You will be able to add plants like Chaeto which help to absorb Nitrate and Phosphates as macronutrients to grow. I have my water flow through my sump like this:

Overflow - Baffels - Skimmer - Sump - Liverock - Return pump

I do this method for the following reason. You want water to travel slower through your refiugium so that plants like Chaeto to have time to adequately remove Nitrates and Phosphates from the water. Having water rip through your refiugium essentially limits this. Also, you can have and maintain a copepod population in your sump and you want slower water for the same reason... you don't want them being all swept away. You can also have Liverock in your sump and refiugium.

2) Reef Octopus makes a good skimmer. I have never used reef octopus or cadlight skimmers so I cannot comment on personal experience, but I have always heard good things from Reef Octopus.

3) Also not familiar with those light brands or models. You mentioned keeping some corals but did not mention SPS corals as one of the corals you wanted which are the most light specific when it comes to strength. I have both metal halides and LED and I prefer halides. They run hotter but they give the tank a more naturalistic look (similar to the sun on a coral reef in the ocean), and I really enjoy that.

4) I would say dry cycle. I can speak from experience as I have done both. My first couple tanks I bought live rock and just added it into my display tank. One each time, I got unwanted hitchhikers (crabs, bubble algae, aiptasia) that in the long run cost me time, and were extremely frustrating to eradicate. On my last tank I Bleached all my rock first and then dipped them in Muriatic Acid. This essentially killed everything on my rock. In addition to this, the Muriatic Acid stripped the first couple millimeters of the liverock which eliminated any Phosphates that could have leached into the rock. I am way happier, and I know exactly what I add to my tank. There are no surprises. Also, you are not paying a premium for 'live rock' and can save money buying 'dead rock'. All you have to do is add some coraline shavings and possibly some carefully selected pieces to turn the 'dead rock' back alive.

5) I use this sand and I have never heard any complaints. Everyone loves it:

http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-s...E03616R30.html

6) I would get into the habit of making your own water. Firstly, if something happens and you need to make an emergency water change, you can't do that if its Sunday night. You should always have fresh salt water as well as fresh RO/DI water on hand for emergencies. Secondly, by making and mixing your own water, you can make sure your RO/DI water always has 0 TDS. Thirdly, buying a good RO/DI unit in a couple months will more than pay for itself as oppose to having to purchase it at your LFS.

7) For your size tank I would have the following:

- Tang (1)
- Clownfish (2)
- Firefish (1)
- Blue Chromis (4)
- Cleaner Shrimp (1-2)
- Snails

That's a good start. You can always add more if you feel you can fit them.

8) On a side note: I would choose a return pump strong and quiet enough to supply water to your display tank, as well as supply water to your calcium reactor, media reactors, chiller, etc. By having one pump in your tank, you limit the amount of heat from having lots of pumps, reduce your electrical bill, and will free up space for a larger sump or equipment.

Also, I would really think of how you plan to make water changes. This may not seem important now, but when your doing them every two weeks, you start to realize the layout of your plumbing plays a very large factor in the amount of time it takes to complete. If if takes 20 minutes to complete a water change, it really does not become a 'chore' after a year. Its fast and easy. You can also design your plumbing to use the return pump to get rid of water from the tank during water changes

Here is a good read on how to do that:

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...&pp=25&page=16

[fishn49ers]

Thank you for the well thought out response lots more to think about but definitely answered some of my questions

Any thoughts on where to get a functional sump like the one you mentioned? In terms of skimmer I am leaning towards reef octopus I'm just hesitant on getting the 110 or the 150. I'm a bit worries about space in my sump

I live in an apartment that's why I was hesitant on the ro/di system but if it's that much better to mix my own salt water I'll have to rethink that decision.

I was hesitant with metal halides due to heat and not wanting to have to add a chiller into the mix. Are LEDs that far behind even the higher end models?

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by fishn49ers

Thank you for the well thought out response lots more to think about but definitely answered some of my questions

Any thoughts on where to get a functional sump like the one you mentioned? In terms of skimmer I am leaning towards reef octopus I'm just hesitant on getting the 110 or the 150. I'm a bit worries about space in my sump

I live in an apartment that's why I was hesitant on the ro/di system but if it's that much better to mix my own salt water I'll have to rethink that decision.

I was hesitant with metal halides due to heat and not wanting to have to add a chiller into the mix. Are LEDs that far behind even the higher end models?

You can can purchase a sump that has a section for a refiugium, or you can buy a 30 gallon tank and make it yourself if you want to save some money. Here is a link that explains sump design and it will give you a better idea:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-01/newbie/

It would be the best to have your skimmer first, and then plan out your sump/refiugium around it to make sure that it fits and functions the way you want.

When I was going to University I also lived in a condo and I see your point with the RO/DI unit as there is not much space for water storage containers. If I were you, I would keep a 25-gallon water storage container on hand in your condo full of RO/DI. When you plan to do a water change, you can mix up salt the night before and then do the water change the next day. This would allow you to set-up some sort of Automatic Top-off system to your sump to replenish evaporation from your tank, and it would also allow you to have fresh RO water on hand in case of an emergency. Here is an example:

http://www.plastic-mart.com/product/...tank-vt0025-18

Seeing as though your tank is on the smaller side and you live in a condo, I would go with an LED fixture. Condo's tend to fluctuate greatly in temperature with the season, and having a condo that faces the sun during the day also would significantly rise your condo temperature. The last thing you want is to have to purchase a chiller with your limited space. I prefer metal halides, but I have a 1HP chiller so tank temperatures are always constant for me regardless. I would definitely run your return pump for your calcium reactor as well as any media reactors you plan on running as this too would cut down on added tank temperatures. Two well known brands of LED fixtures can be found below:

1) http://ecotechmarine.com/products/radion/
2) http://www.aquaillumination.com/lighting/

I would not say LED's are behind in terms of technology, I simply do not believe that the technology has been refined to a point where people in our hobby can definitively point to a unit and say it is better than a metal halide unit. LED developers are trying as closely as possible to mimic the optimum spectrum for coral growth and this has proven easier said than done. That's not to say you cannot grow corals with LED's, as many have, but you often find people with corals loosing their color as a result to them not having their LED system running at a high enough output, or you have people who have corals that are bleaching as a result of them running their LED units at too high of an output. With an LED fixture, you can adjust output and which LED's are firing at a given time. Its a balancing act between whats the most athletically appealing, to what is giving your corals the best growth. IMO no LED fixture can match a metal halide system in terms of growth, consistency and like I stated before, you get that realistic look in your tank as if the sun was shining on a coral reef in the ocean. Others may disagree with this, but many have gone back to metal halides after trying LED's for this reason:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2203067

With being said, you have to look at your tank, your needs, and your budget. You have to determine what corals you want to keep, and that will help guide you in what direction you will be going with for lighting options.

[fishn49ers]

Dang after reading all that makes me want to get a MH. Would you consider the t5 a bridge between both worlds with ability to grow softies and Lps. On a side note our condo is a steady 72/73 degrees

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by fishn49ers

Dang after reading all that makes me want to get a MH. Would you consider the t5 a bridge between both worlds with ability to grow softies and Lps. On a side note our condo is a steady 72/73 degrees

Most people who run metal halides also supplement with T5 or VHO lighting. Just out of curiosity, are you going to have a canopy over your tank to hide your lighting and wires or are you going to have your tank open like this:

http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader...tankupdate.jpg

If your going to have it open, and you plan to keep softies and LPS, in your position, I would do an LED system. It would give you the opportunity if you wanted to dabble and try SPS corals, and LED's can grow them, but if not, LPS and sofies are more than fine with an LED system. In addition to this, the new LED units are pretty good looking. You don't want people staring at an ugly metal halide setup in a nice condo when you can have a nice, clean looking LED unit.

You have to understand this is your first tank, and to be honest, reading will get you about 50% there in terms of knowing what you like. When you get your tank up and running will you really know what your preferences are and thats normal.

[fishn49ers]

Right on, I might have to pm you in the future with questions if that's ok. Thanks a ton

[shaginwagon13]

Originally Posted by fishn49ers

Right on, I might have to pm you in the future with questions if that's ok. Thanks a ton

No problem at all. Just PM me if you have any more questions.

[Reefmedic79]

Didn't read shaginwagon's response, so if I repeat info I apologize.

1. Get the largest sump you can fit. If you can find a good deal for a custom one that would be awesome. I would steer clear of bio-balls as they are not needed whith sufficient skimming and live rock. You will need a very small section for the overflow to drain a section big enough for the skimmer to fit, a fuge and a section large enough for the return pump to fit. You will want baffles between each section with a "bubble trap prior to the section the return pump is in.

2. I use a Reef Octopus, and have no sound other than the trickle of water leaving the outlet of the skimmer when the water level gets low in the sump. I use the NWB-110 for my 4oB which would also be sufficient for a 65, IMO.

3. I use LEDs and I'm very happy with them. I personally have no experience with reef radiance though. From the looks of their site you will likely need 2 DM155e or 1 Pro 180. I'm also in the process of adding some t-5 supplements though, because my LED's are home made and I didn't include the varying different diodes in my set-up. I personally don't think you will need T-5 supplements with either of the two set-ups you are interested in.

SPS can be kept with pretty much any of the primary lighting set-ups, though you may have color and growth discrepancies between them.

4. I primarily went with dry rock and seeded with about 10% of my total with LR. The LR i used was hand picked and was very dense with few nooks and crannies for things to hide. Most hitchhiker are good, IMO, including bristle worms. Of all the "bristle worm" (polychaete worms) species there are out there only a couple are known coral eaters, and are rarely found in our tanks. I got my base rock from reefcleaners.net, and they will throw in the sand for free +shipping cost for every 40lbs. of rock you purchase. I purchased 80lbs and had some left over of course, but I break it up and use it as frag plugs now.

5. I use the fine sand shipped from reefrocks.net

6. NSW is a viable option, though having your own RO/DI filter will benefit you in the long run, especially if you have an emergent need for fresh clean water. (Murphy's Law of Reefkeeing: If something goes wrong it will be when the LFS is closed) I personally prefer not to lug 5 gallon water jugs too and from my car to do water changes as well.

7. The lighting above will allow you to keep pretty much any coral you'd like once things are nice and stable.


To Reef Central

[fishn49ers]

Thanks so much guys, i just visited the person who makes custom sumps and we did some talking, he is going to get me a deal on a bubble magus curve 5, custom built acrylic sump maximizing my under cabinet space (smaller back access cabinet gives me a 25x16Wx18H sump space. Going to have a spot for skimmer, refugium and return pump. Going to be getting live rock thru him who assured me it will be pest free and its the same rocks he keeps in his tanks (which are awesome).

Im going to probably be ordering my lumentek pro 180 or 240 today im still undecided on which to get, now it looks like i need to find a flow pump he reccomended the mp10 so he is going to help me find a deal on that as well.

Very excited to begin planning ill have to post a build thread soon once more of the parts get here, just finished painting the back of the tank black now its time to sit tight and wait for equipment to get here and begin plumbing.

[shaginwagon13]

If you haven't purchased your plumbing PVC and joints yet here is a good place to get everything:

https://www.savko.com/

Make sure you post some pictures when you get everything started!

[Derrick12]

I run a CPR backpack skimmer. It is loud but does a fair job
Reading this has given me some ideas I may change to a sump