Newbie needs some advice on going with a Herbie setup!

[MatAndPatti]

Finally getting our 40B setup and have been debugging the plumbing all week. We've already drilled the tank for a g********s 700 GPH overflow, and while the overflow itself is fairly quiet, the water going into the sump is just way too noisy to have running in the livingroom. I've experimented with about a million different fittings and lengths of pipe to get it to quiet down, but nothing has helped... So I think I'm at the point where I've got to try a Herbie style drain, but I want to check my idea before drilling any more holes in the tank.


What I was thinking of doing was to use the existing overflow as the "emergency" drain line. The bulkhead and plumbing are all 1.5" and it's fully capable of handling the full flow from our return pump (an Eheim 1260).

The full siphon drain would be achieved via a new bulkhead somewhere next to the g********s existing overflow box. I was thinking of using something like this:

Possibly with a 90* elbow in the tank in order to point the strainer slightly upward, rather than having it stick straight out of the bulkhead.

Anyhow, some questions I have....
1. Is it alright if I run the full siphon line *outside* of the overflow box where the emergency drain is? The emergency drain will be above (probably by about an inch) the level of the siphon line, so I'm not sure I see a problem with it, but I'm a newbie with this!

2. Does it matter how deep below the waterline the siphon bulkhead is? Since it's not going to be inside of an overflow box, obviously I wouldn't want to put it too deep, since in a power outage the water will drain to that level. I'm just not sure if having it only ~1 inch below the waterline will affect its performance at all.

3. Does this sound like a dumb idea? Am I missing something obvious?

4. Has anyone set up a Herbie like this? Care to share some pics?


Thanks!
-Mat

[IanWR]

I don't think you'll be happy with this, for 2 reasons. First you have already mentioned, that the tank will drain to the level of that strainer. The second is that if it is only a couple of inches below the water it will be very noisy as it creates a drain vortex sucking air in.

You could mount a second overflow box I suppose to correct those 2 concerns.

[Realposition]

i would remove the old overflow box and install a bigger one with both holes inside the box. just bite the bullet now and save yourself the headache later on

[Reefer54]

have you tried running airline into the drain...the tubing must be in the water column inside your drain pipe.

[Im14abeer]

Does your return come up inside the overflow? If so, use that bulkhead for your other drain and bring the return over the back. You want your drain behind the overflow for a few reasons. Things are less likely to find their way into your drain, you drain less water when you lose power and your overflow is designed to take the protein laden top layer of water so your skimmer will be more effective and your tank won't look like it has an oil slick floating on it.

[Chrisjbarry]

Your full siphon needs to be about 1" lower then the second trickle. Then the emergency needs to be about 1" above the top of the first two. All should be in the same overflow box. Here is a couple pics of mine. Keep the full siphon lower as you want it to pull the most amount of water. You will need only one valve on the full siphon drain. Also I had an issue where my main siphon wouldn't start after power loss. Found out my drain pipe was to far below the water in the sump. I cut it down now its about 1/2" below water and starts up after about 30 seconds.
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[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by IanWR

I don't think you'll be happy with this, for 2 reasons. First you have already mentioned, that the tank will drain to the level of that strainer. The second is that if it is only a couple of inches below the water it will be very noisy as it creates a drain vortex sucking air in.

You could mount a second overflow box I suppose to correct those 2 concerns.

Originally Posted by Realposition

i would remove the old overflow box and install a bigger one with both holes inside the box. just bite the bullet now and save yourself the headache later on

I agree, I hadn't really thought about that vortex making noise, but I remember seeing and hearing that in the LFS when I saw how they had their single overflow (not a herbie) plumbed. Plus, it will be safer overall (and will look better, also).

I'll probably go with 1 large overflow. Do you guys know of any commercially available overflows that might fit the plumbing? The largest part (and I'm stuck with it since the tank is already drilled) would be the 1.5" up-turned elbow for the emergency line.

Thanks again!

[ArmyGreens]

Also some covers over the overflow and 40b will cut out a ton of the noise. Extending the pipe/s below the waterline in the sump will cut out some noise as well.

Do you have a pic to show? I've used the cpr c-siphon overflows before and work well. I believe they have a 1.5" model.

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Reefer54

have you tried running airline into the drain...the tubing must be in the water column inside your drain pipe.

Yup, the kit came with a hole drilled in the exterior 90* and an air tube. Played with that thing for what seemed like forever. It helped to quiet the slurping/flushing noise in the overflow, but not at the sump end of things.

I also tried rigging up a reverse durso down in the sump which is supposed to let trapped air out of the line and help reduce back pressure. I tried several designs I found online, and it barely helped with the bubbles down in the sump, and when it did, sounded like a full-blown echo chamber.

I finally got fed up one night with it and decided to use a spare 3/4" tube to run a full siphon drain down to the sump, with the existing overflow just taking a little trickle (basically to simulate a herbie setup before drilling a new hole). It was sooooo quiet I couldn't believe it, the return pump became the loudest thing in the room. That convinced the wife that it was worth delaying things a bit to get this fixed, since the setup is going in the livingroom. It's only taken us ~3 years to get this build off the ground, so another couple of weeks is no big deal.

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Im14abeer

Does your return come up inside the overflow? If so, use that bulkhead for your other drain and bring the return over the back. You want your drain behind the overflow for a few reasons. Things are less likely to find their way into your drain, you drain less water when you lose power and your overflow is designed to take the protein laden top layer of water so your skimmer will be more effective and your tank won't look like it has an oil slick floating on it.

Nope, it doesn't, unfortunately. At this point, since the system isn't running, drilling another hole and getting a larger overflow box is the best option. Great point about surface skimming, BTW, I hadn't really even considered that one!

Thanks!

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Chrisjbarry

Your full siphon needs to be about 1" lower then the second trickle. Then the emergency needs to be about 1" above the top of the first two. All should be in the same overflow box. Here is a couple pics of mine. Keep the full siphon lower as you want it to pull the most amount of water. You will need only one valve on the full siphon drain. Also I had an issue where my main siphon wouldn't start after power loss. Found out my drain pipe was to far below the water in the sump. I cut it down now its about 1/2" below water and starts up after about 30 seconds.

Thanks for the pics! That's a BeanAnimal overflow, right? I'm actually just going with a Herbie, but I assume the comment about the 1" offset probably still applies?

When you said "Found out my drain pipe was far too below the water in the sump." are you referring to the siphon drain line?

Thanks!

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by ArmyGreens

Also some covers over the overflow and 40b will cut out a ton of the noise. Extending the pipe/s below the waterline in the sump will cut out some noise as well.

Do you have a pic to show? I've used the cpr c-siphon overflows before and work well. I believe they have a 1.5" model.

Yup, tried all kinds of lengths of pipe below the waterline. Also tried many different reverse durso type contraptions, none of which particularly helped. When I ran a siphon hose into the sump and saw how quiet it was, I knew that drilling another hole would be a better solution.

The CPR C you mentioned isn't quite the same as what I've got, I think. What I have is a drilled overflow, as opposed to an over-the-backs style. I think the CPR drain down to the sump would then be pulling a full siphon, wouldn't it? The drilled overflow sucks a lot of air and that's where the problem is. The vent hole and airline hasn't really helped quiet things down at the sump end of things, unfortunately.

Here's a not-so-great plumbing pic of one of the incarnations I tried out. This was actually quieter than some of the other contraptions I tried, but all sounded like niagara falls down in the sump, regardless of how far under the waterline I placed the pipe.

[Im14abeer]

I think you're making the right decision. In the end you'll be much happier, quiet is cool in the living room. Nice display of patience also, not blowing off fundamentals is a recipe for success.

[Chrisjbarry]

Originally Posted by MatAndPatti

Thanks for the pics! That's a BeanAnimal overflow, right? I'm actually just going with a Herbie, but I assume the comment about the 1" offset probably still applies?



When you said "Found out my drain pipe was far too below the water in the sump." are you referring to the siphon drain line?



Thanks!

Yes the siphon drain line was set closer to 2" below water level. Had to stop the pump cut a little off then start pump up again see if full siphon would start again. If you can go bean animal I would. Mine sits right behind the wife's couch and she now says wow the tank is quieter then the fridge in the other room. My cd pump has just a small humming noise at like 90% so I upgraded to the dc12000 and run it closer to 75% almost dead silent. If the fridge turns on to cool down its louder then my tank.

[Soolaimon]

I love the herbie overflow. I have a full height overflow box that drains out the bottom of the tank and the lower standpipe is 6" below the emergency drain. Depending on the width of the overflow my guess is that 2" below the emergency might not be enough to get the full siphon started.

I have zero regrets about doing the herbie style. This thing is dead silent. because of the 6" difference in stand pipes i have about 2-3 extra gallons that drain when the return pump is off but it's not an issue as i accommodate this with the max level in my sump.

A picture of your overflow setup would help clear up some questions.

[DaveG99]

I've had a 700gph glass holes overflow and mine was quiet. Your pump is way too strong. I had a quiet one 1200 on mine. I think it was 375gph. Now I'm running the Bernie style custom overflow on my new tank and I won't ever run anything except herbies. Dead quiet and awesome.

I would just get a smaller pump or get another 40breeder and set it up for a herbie overflow correctly.

[DaveG99]

Correction: my quiet one 1200 was 296gph.

[Crusinjimbo]

I think your 1 1/2" drain is too larger for a Herbie on a 40B/1260 combo. Mine is a 60G/1260 on a 3/4" drain (1" emergency, dry) running wide open on 6' of head.

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Im14abeer

I think you're making the right decision. In the end you'll be much happier, quiet is cool in the living room. Nice display of patience also, not blowing off fundamentals is a recipe for success.

Thanks for your encouragement! This hobby has so many different variables and ways of doing things, it's nice to get confirmation sometimes that things are moving the right direction!

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Chrisjbarry

Yes the siphon drain line was set closer to 2" below water level. Had to stop the pump cut a little off then start pump up again see if full siphon would start again. If you can go bean animal I would. Mine sits right behind the wife's couch and she now says wow the tank is quieter then the fridge in the other room. My cd pump has just a small humming noise at like 90% so I upgraded to the dc12000 and run it closer to 75% almost dead silent. If the fridge turns on to cool down its louder then my tank.

Thanks for the info. I think a BeanAnimal would be overkill for our tank (especially since it's partially drilled already), but when/if we upsize, it will definitely be part of the plans.

For now I'm going to try rigging up an experiment to use our existing return bulkhead to get an idea if it will pull a good siphon where it is at now, and that will tell me if I need to go much lower.

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Soolaimon

I love the herbie overflow. I have a full height overflow box that drains out the bottom of the tank and the lower standpipe is 6" below the emergency drain. Depending on the width of the overflow my guess is that 2" below the emergency might not be enough to get the full siphon started.

I have zero regrets about doing the herbie style. This thing is dead silent. because of the 6" difference in stand pipes i have about 2-3 extra gallons that drain when the return pump is off but it's not an issue as i accommodate this with the max level in my sump.

A picture of your overflow setup would help clear up some questions.

I actually don't have the new overflow yet, tho if I get one to accommodate the existing return (which will be my emergency drain) and the new siphon line, it will probably be at least 12" long, ~4" wide, and probably about 5-6" deep.

I'm going to try to experiment tonight with the existing return line as the siphon, and I'll remove the g********s box and replace it with an upturned 90 for the emergency. I'm hoping it will show me whether or not a fairly shallow line will pull a siphon or not when I restart things.

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by DaveG99

I've had a 700gph glass holes overflow and mine was quiet. Your pump is way too strong. I had a quiet one 1200 on mine. I think it was 375gph. Now I'm running the Bernie style custom overflow on my new tank and I won't ever run anything except herbies. Dead quiet and awesome.

I would just get a smaller pump or get another 40breeder and set it up for a herbie overflow correctly.

I've got a gate valve on my return line, and have had it dialed all the way down to almost nothing. That quieted down the sump bubble/waterfall souns somewhat, but I found it actually increased the overflow box noise a little. Even at a trickle, it still seemed too noisy for the livingroom.

When you say "quiet" do you mean "silent"? Or do you mean it just doesn't make a lot of noise?

It might be too late for me to reverse directions at this point anyway... the wife has heard how quiet the siphon is (youtube vids) and she likes how much quieter it is!

Thanks!

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Crusinjimbo

I think your 1 1/2" drain is too larger for a Herbie on a 40B/1260 combo. Mine is a 60G/1260 on a 3/4" drain (1" emergency, dry) running wide open on 6' of head.

Oops, sorry, maybe my description wasn't clear. The existing 1 1/2" would be used for the emergency. The siphon drain would be a soon to be drilled 3/4" line.

Do you find a 3/4" is a sufficiently large siphon for your combo? I was debating on going up to 1" but maybe that's too big. Since it'll have a ball valve to tune it anyway I figured it might be a good idea to upsize... What do you think?

[Realposition]

using the 1 1/2" for the emergency would be fine, it should be dry and only used if something gets clogged in your main drain pipe. the 3/4" hole will be big enough, i used a 1" hole and a pump pushing almost 700gph and i had my gate valve turned almost all the way in. it wouldn't hurt to up size but if you already have the 3/4" stuff i wouldn't worry about it not being big enough, the full siphon can really move a lot of water.

[MatAndPatti]

Originally Posted by Realposition

using the 1 1/2" for the emergency would be fine, it should be dry and only used if something gets clogged in your main drain pipe. the 3/4" hole will be big enough, i used a 1" hole and a pump pushing almost 700gph and i had my gate valve turned almost all the way in. it wouldn't hurt to up size but if you already have the 3/4" stuff i wouldn't worry about it not being big enough, the full siphon can really move a lot of water.

Thanks for the info Larry! That's great, and going with the smaller size will make life easier since space is at a premium.