Flooding/stoppage issues. Help

[Reefwithareefer]

This is my first tank, it has been running for a few months.

My display tank is on the main floor (180 gal) 2 1" overflows and 2 3/4" returns
The sump (55gal tank holding approx 25 gals) and the refugium (70 gal tank holding 60 gals) are in the basement.

The Apex is controlling almost all equipment. The Apex is brand new. Although one out let on the 2nd bar act strangely, but nothing is plugged into it anymore.

My issue is that my tanks (display & Sump) are flooding randomly. Last week I woke up to my return pump shut off for some unknown reason, the display close to flooding, even though it should have dropped below the overflows. I, unfortunately can not remember if the pump did not go back on because I had the Apex programmed wrong. I now have it to go back on 2 minutes after the power is restored.

3 days ago I woke up and notice that the display tank is very low, too low to not have flooded somewhere. I go downstairs and there is water all over the floor. The sump level is approx half of what it should be if power is off, but the refugium is a lil higher than it should be with no power to the equipment. I look down at my ATO bucket (5 gal) and it is filled to the brim, but looks like it has been overflowing, but has now stopped overflowing.

I think about what has happened and come up with... It appears that the water line from my ATO pump has siphoned water from the sump, back into the bucket, causing it to overflow onto the floor. The line does (did) sit about 3 or 4 inches below the water level when the power is lost and the sump fills up. That explains the low level in the sump. What it does not explain is why the GFI outlet has been tripped, shutting down half the equipment, including the return pump and skimmer. The GFI has never been tripped. There is no equipment that would have tripped the GFI (Ground Fault Interruptor is what we call an outlet with its own breaker on it in Canada)

The return pump has shut down randomly a few times before this as well It is a brand new Panworld 200. I am not sure if it is the pump switching off somehow or the apex. The breakers in the main electrical panel have never been tripped and it is the first time the GFI has tripped without a known cause. The return pump does not seems excessively hot, but it is certainly hot.

Today, I wake up and everything is running, but the water level in the display has risen about 1/2" to 3/4" above normal. I thought it may have been my ATO (Tunze 3155) acting up and putting too much water in the sump for some unknown reason. I turn off the ATO via the Apex, until I can go down and deal with it. Approx 2.5 pass until i go past the display tank and see that it has risen another 1/2" approx. I go downstairs and see that the sump level is quite a bit low and the refugium is a little low. I turn the return pump off, let the display tank drain down a little, turn return pump on and all levels in all tanks are right back to normal.

This tank has been running at normal levels for three days and now it decides to change. Either water is being pumped up quicker or the water going down is less.
What can cause this? I am baffled

Great, Everything has been running while I was writing this, now the GFI has tripped again. No signs of why anywhere. The apex says it is/was only drawing approx 3.5 amps of the one that tripped the GFI. I have two apex outlet bars. Each one is on a separate 15 amp breaker and GFI.


I am not sure if this info is needed, but in case.

EB3 (the one that trips the GFI) outlet bar has


1 250 watt MH light
1 outlets controls 4 x 96 watt compact flourescent bulbs
1 outlet controls 4 x 1 watt led moonlights
1 panworld 200 return pump 3.5 amps max
1 Tunze ATO
1 outlet controls Calcium reactor pumps and solenoid
1 Tunze cooling fan

The EB3 bar is plugged into one of the two main outlets with GFI
The other outlet has the 2 Tunze controllable powerheads and 1 wavebox plugged into it, plus a small fan to circulate the air in the sump room.


The EB5 has
1 250 watt MH
1 250 watt MH
1 Bubble King skimmer pump
1 outlet controls two 200 watt heaters
1 outlet controls 2 Hydor Koralia powerheads.
3 outlets are empty.

The EB5 is plugged into one of the outlets with GFI and a DA reefkeeper is plugged into the other. The Reefkeeper controls the lights for the refugium. The MH and compact fluorescents go on 15 mins after the display tank lights go off and off 15 mins before the display tank lights go on.

I know it is a long winded post, but I figure I have to give as much info as possible, as I am stumped as to why power is going off to return pump only or that the gfi is tripping and that the water levels are acting strange. I am missing something...UGH!

[ganjero]

Well it seems you figured out the one event, the line of the tunze osmolator siphoned back.

For the other vents, the first one listed is strange....for the others it seems you return pump is pushing slightly more water than you overflow(s) can handle. What overflow are you using? whats the smallest pipe diameter in the overflow piping?

All the equipment listed should be pulling more than 3.5amps (just the return pump can pull that), can you adjust the setting on the apex? maybe it's not showing total amps but just one outlet.

How old are the GFI outlets? is all your equipment new? it might be a faulty piece tripping the outlet.

[Reefwithareefer]

All my overflow piping is 1" and all the return is 3/4".
I am not sure if the return is pushing more or not..I have no way of telling. I have marked my sump and refugium tanks with felt every 1/2". I did not notice any real variation of water level in the past three days. I have checked it every 2 hours or so during the day. This only seems to happen at night time. Not sure if it is coincidence or not.

Most everything is run from the return pump and the low amp draw is because lights are off for the nite on the eb3. The ato is cycled, the power heads and fan are shut down at night as well. So only the return pump, CO2, and moonlight are running on the eb3 at nite time (10:00 pm till 6:00 am), hence approx 3.5 amps

The GFI's are 2 months old. I installed them myself. The strange thing is that everything was running fine for the first 5 weeks. All the same equipment running today was running at the beginning.

The only thing different is bought new CFs and changed them out.

There was another time that i went down to look at the sump and it was low as was the refugium, but the tank was high. I shut down the return pump and restarted it and all the levels were right where they were suppose to be.

I am baffled.

I am also worried about leaving the house now. While I finished writing the first post, my Apex ALD shut down the system...ugh...I have been checking the levels and they seem to be holding at a even return/overflow rate so far.

Thanks for the response, any help/ideas can only help.

[ganjero]

How many overflows do you have? How high is your display from the pump?

Use these calculators to determine if your overflow can handle the flow.

Head Loss calculator (to determine an aprox of the return flow)
http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php...oss-calculator

Overflow Calculator (to determine diameter and linear size of you overflow)
http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php...flow-size-calc

[Reefwithareefer]

I should state that it is not always the GFI that is tripping. On a few occasions the return pump has just shut off in the middle of the night. Sometimes it goes back on and others it stays off. I can see when power drops , by looking at the graphs in the Apex. I can not tell if it is just the pump or something else. I can just see that approx 3.? amps are not being drawn anymore and my pump draws approx that much.

[ganjero]

Plug the return pump directly to an outlet to see if you have any issues. You might have a programming issue with that outlet in the apex.

[ganjero]

Did you install a valve to control the return pump's flow? if so, try closing it to slow it down and see if that helps with the water level issues

[Reefwithareefer]

I have valves on all return /overflow piping so that I can adjust what comes down and what goes up. I also have valves for all the reactors that are run off the return pump via a manifold.

There are 2 - 1" overflows and 2 - 3/4" returns. I have approx 16ft of head and the pump is good for approx 1800 GPH at that head, but then the UV and 3 reactors use some of that GPH as well. The overflows were good for around 1400.

I am not sure if my overflows are the issue per say. If the water levels hold steady for approx three days and then drop or flooding occurs, it seems like it may be something else. The ATO holds the sump level pretty good as far as I can see.

[Reefwithareefer]

I am going to try plugging it into a regular outlet. The Apex Programming for that outlet is very basic, so not sure if it is the programming or a faulty Apex...

Return pump program


Fallback ON
Set ON
If Power EB8_3 Off 002 Then OFF
If Swx4_1 CLOSED Then OFF

[ganjero]

I thought you had an issue with the water level in the display tank slowly increasing, and when you turned off the ATO you could see the water level in the sump "drastically" (more than evaporation would do) decreasing. That's why I suggested closing the return valve a little to decrease flow.

I would leave the the overflow valves completely open, unless you have a beananimal or herbie style overflow and know how to tune it. If you refugium is reeving water from the overflow do no try using an overflow valve to control the flow (unless is T-off to a separate line with it's own valve), you are running very close to the max 2 1" overflows can handle.

To add here, do the overflows have their own independent piping all the way to the sump and that can have completely free/opened flow? If you connected them at some point to a common pipe you are pretty much running just one 1" overflow.

What's the programming for these:
If Power EB8_3 Off 002 Then OFF
If Swx4_1 CLOSED Then OFF

[Reefwithareefer]

The display level does increase, but it also decreased. I think you are combining two incidents that I spoke about, into one.

If Power EB8_3 Off 002 Then OFF ......If the powerto the EB3 = off (apex outlet bar) then the return pump then the rurn pump outlet on that bar should turn back on 2 minutes after power is restored to the eb3 bar

If Swx4_1 CLOSED Then OFF.... if Swx4_1 (ALD, Auto Leak Detection module) is closed then the power to the return pump is shout off

Is it programmed wrong?

[Reefwithareefer]

the pump pumps more than the over flows can handle. I have the return pipes wide open with the overflows adjusted to keep the same level.


Not sure what type of overflows they are called.

The overflows and return pipes are installed to flow thru the bottom of the tank.

Each overflow in the display is essentially two pieces that slide over/into each other so you can change the elevation of the pipe. The top of the over flow pipe have a 180 degree fitting (picture a candy cane, that is what it looks like with the overflow and 180 degree fitting together) that the end ends up being submersed into water at all times. It has a screen on the end to keep out critters. The 180 degree fitting has a nipple at the top. I assume to let air into the pipe to help drain it better.
I have not found anything like this to figure out how they work exactly.
I have changed the elevations of them, but not much happens. it seems like one pipe will have more flow than the other. If I let the nipple suck in air, it makes a lot of noise in the sump and display, so I adjust everything to make sure that no air gets down overflows.

[Reefwithareefer]

lol, sorry about the grammar etc. I am doing 6 things at once and not proof reading my responses before I send them.

[Reefwithareefer]

No, the overflow pipes are all independent. Not connected to one another anywhere.

[ganjero]

My previous posts was referring to this incident (display rising, sump and refugium lowering)

Originally Posted by Reefwithareefer

Today, I wake up and everything is running, but the water level in the display has risen about 1/2" to 3/4" above normal. I thought it may have been my ATO (Tunze 3155) acting up and putting too much water in the sump for some unknown reason. I turn off the ATO via the Apex, until I can go down and deal with it. Approx 2.5 pass until i go past the display tank and see that it has risen another 1/2" approx. I go downstairs and see that the sump level is quite a bit low and the refugium is a little low. I turn the return pump off, let the display tank drain down a little, turn return pump on and all levels in all tanks are right back to normal.

Originally Posted by Reefwithareefer

The display level does increase, but it also decreased. I think you are combining two incidents that I spoke about, into one.

If Power EB8_3 Off 002 Then OFF ......If the powerto the EB3 = off (apex outlet bar) then the return pump then the rurn pump outlet on that bar should turn back on 2 minutes after power is restored to the eb3 bar

If Swx4_1 CLOSED Then OFF.... if Swx4_1 (ALD, Auto Leak Detection module) is closed then the power to the return pump is shout off

Is it programmed wrong?

I was asking more specifically what turns off EB8 3 (if anything)
..if you have a separate programming for those events...or simply lost of power to eb8_3 by any reason

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by Reefwithareefer

the pump pumps more than the over flows can handle. I have the return pipes wide open with the overflows adjusted to keep the same level.

This is an issue. Your overflow should never be restricted (unless as stated before you are running beananimal (3 pipes per overflow) or herbie style (2 pipes per overflow) overflow and know how to adjust them).

Your overflow valves should be completely open and the two lines must have no restriction all the way to the sump. If you want to t-off something and put a valve there that is fine.

To clarify we are talking about the same stuff:
Return pipes=Pies coming from the return Pump
Overflow Pipes=Pipes coming from the overflows

[Reefwithareefer]

"I thought you had an issue with the water level in the display tank slowly increasing, and when you turned off the ATO you could see the water level in the sump "drastically" (more than evaporation would do) decreasing. That's why I suggested closing the return valve a little to decrease flow."

"3 days ago I woke up and notice that the display tank is very low, too low to not have flooded somewhere. I go downstairs and there is water all over the floor. The sump level is approx half of what it should be if power is off, but the refugium is a lil higher than it should be with no power to the equipment. I look down at my ATO bucket (5 gal) and it is filled to the brim, but looks like it has been overflowing, but has now stopped overflowing."


"Today, I wake up and everything is running, but the water level in the display has risen about 1/2" to 3/4" above normal. I thought it may have been my ATO (Tunze 3155) acting up and putting too much water in the sump for some unknown reason. I turn off the ATO via the Apex, until I can go down and deal with it. Approx 2.5 pass until i go past the display tank and see that it has risen another 1/2" approx. I go downstairs and see that the sump level is quite a bit low and the refugium is a little low. I turn the return pump off, let the display tank drain down a little, turn return pump on and all levels in all tanks are right back to normal."


2 separate incidents 3 days apart. Or I am tired and not understanding something.

[ganjero]

Your overflows should always be able to handle one way or the other more flow than your return pump....if you want to quite them down you need to applied the style of overflow I mentioned in previous posts

[ganjero]

My answer goes with the second one, the first one you figured out it was the ato siphoning back.

[Reefwithareefer]

I was asking more specifically what turns off EB8 3 (if anything)
..if you have a separate programming for those events...or simply lost of power to eb8_3 by any reason

No separate programming, just in case power goes out. I just did not want everything starting up at the same time and sometimes the power will "flicker" on for a minute before it is fully restored.

I have never read that you can not restrict your overflows. All the reading and videos I have seen, show many people doing it, so I did as well. How does restricting overflow cause an issue. If you have the same going up as you do down, why does it matter?

How does one get a pump that returns exactly the same amount going down then?

Yes, we are talking about the same stuff

[ganjero]

You get a pump that has less flow than the overflow can handle.....if you restric the overflows debris acummulating at the valves will slow down the flow and you would need to adjust it or at least flush it regularly, that is why you are having issues....the videos and articles you are seeing are probably implementing herbie or beananimal style whig have emergency drains

[Reefwithareefer]

So my tank ran for a month without any water level issues and now it may have debris clogging the overflow pipe/s, which is slowing down the flow rate coming into the sump.

So how can I add an emergency over flow or???? The tank came this way and the previous owner had it running for 6 years. I assumed the piping was good enough/correct.

I have a bulkhead at each end of tank, inside each bulkhead, there are two pipes. One is an over flow and the other is the return pipe.

[ganjero]

Originally Posted by Reefwithareefer

So my tank ran for a month without any water level issues and now it may have debris clogging the overflow pipe/s, which is slowing down the flow rate coming into the sump.

So how can I add an emergency over flow or???? The tank came this way and the previous owner had it running for 6 years. I assumed the piping was good enough/correct.

I have a bulkhead at each end of tank, inside each bulkhead, there are two pipes. One is an over flow and the other is the return pipe.

On a running tank is almost impossible, you need to drill at least an extra hole per overflow. Plus matching the pump flow with ball valves is very difficult, you need gate valves.

You don't need to match the flow, just open the overflow valves all the way. People using the styles mentioned to make.the tank completely silent, but without and emergency drain is a disaster waiting to happen

[Reefwithareefer]

even if I get a pump that pumps less, the overflow can still get debris in it and slow flow rate..
I do have the return pipe hooked up to the UV, the water runs thru the UV and directly back into the sump

I use UV ball valve to put more flow back to sump, which lessens the amount going up to the display or vice versa if needed. This way it does not restrict the return pump flow as much

[Reefwithareefer]

the gates valves are suppose to be herefrom BRS on Friday