Why scare newcomers into using dry rock?

[ktownhero]

I'm just re-entering the reef hobby after an 8+ year haitus and I'm really surprised by how much there has been a shift from using pure live rock/sand to dry materials, especially the rock. A mere 8 years ago I feel like if you talked about using dry rock in your tank people would laugh, but now it is common place.

I understand that people like control and get scared about "pests", but I am I alone in feeling like you miss out on a HUGE part of what makes reefing awesome when you use almost all (or all) dry rock? I feel like people who never used live rock and went straight to dry rock, in the false belief that it would eventually end up "live", are really getting hoodwinked. I understand a veteran reefer maybe just wanting a tank they 100% control, but man real live rock is just so awesome. The best part about reefing, IMO, has always been seeing what comes alive on your rock/sand as the tank matures. It's not the bacteria or the "scary" aiptasia or mantis shrimp, it's all of the other stuff that you are GUARANTEED to get, which you can't artificially recreate: sponges, feather dusters, random corals, non-decorative clams, crabs, snails, starfish, pods, worms, macro algaes and countless other random and safe creatures that turn up over time. This is not even to mention how much EASIER it is to keep a healthy tank when you start with proper live rock. The tank cycles fast and almost takes care of itself (with proper cleanup crew added).

It's just so much fun to watch a tank with real live rock mature over time. So, why does it seem like newcomers are "scared" more toward dry rock these days? There's NOTHING like starting a tank with 90-100% live rock, not this "mostly dry rock and I'll add a few pieces to seed it" stuff.

Am I alone here?

[RocketEngineer]

I think the biggest reason is COST. You are talking about the difference between $3 or less dry rock vs $5-$10 per pound live rock. Factor in overnight shipping and the cost almost doubles in most cases. Going all live rock significantly increases the cost and for most starting hobbyists, it doesn't seem worth the expense. Also, certain types of dry rock have a lot more character and look better than others. Take a look at BRS Pukani, it's old coral heads vs the Fiji "premium" round lumps. Personally, I think going 75% dry with a nano LR package to introduce all the little critters is a happy medium for most small to medium size setups.

It is all up to the individual. If you have the funds and can go all LR, go for it. If you're like me and want different shapes and forms, mixing LR with dry rock gets you a happy medium. Going all dry rock does keep out some annoying critters but you can still get algae and other pests.

[reepher315]

Just like you said. Its mostley to avoid pests. But I side with you on this. When I first cycled my tank I put 4 pieces of really mature LR in the tank to cycle. Sooo many creatures hitched along and made themselves at home. Sure some will die but some will live. Also im glad I had the experience of having to take care of some aiptasia. Good knowledge to have for reefers.

[apstreck]

How is it a false belief that the rock will turn live? Does it take longer to establish an effecting biological filter with dry rock? Certainly. Once established, is it any less effective than it would be when starting with dry rock? Not at all. It's also MUCH cheaper, and friendlier to the environment as its not being harvested from active reefs. The only thing I miss about not having live rock is an instant population of pods and bristleworms, but those can be supplemented.

[Pigpen17]

Originally Posted by RocketEngineer

I think the biggest reason is COST. You are talking about the difference between $3 or less dry rock vs $5-$10 per pound live rock. Factor in overnight shipping and the cost almost doubles in most cases. Going all live rock significantly increases the cost and for most starting hobbyists, it doesn't seem worth the expense. Also, certain types of dry rock have a lot more character and look better than others. Take a look at BRS Pukani, it's old coral heads vs the Fiji "premium" round lumps. Personally, I think going 75% dry with a nano LR package to introduce all the little critters is a happy medium for most small to medium size setups.

It is all up to the individual. If you have the funds and can go all LR, go for it. If you're like me and want different shapes and forms, mixing LR with dry rock gets you a happy medium. Going all dry rock does keep out some annoying critters but you can still get algae and other pests.

It just depends on how big of a hurry you are in. Cost was a factor when I first started, so I started small. My first saltwater tank was a 29g. By the standards of the time I needed 30 lbs of live rock. I started with 10 and added one fish. When I could, I bought another rock, then another. Then added another fish. Then bought another rock, and on and on. Over a year I ended up with 30+ lbs, upgraded to a 65g and continued the process. I understand that if you are setting up a 200g reef, that equasion changes drasticly, but it is still an appoach I liked and one I would do again.

[Chloral Coral]

Pest control can be a daunting task for new reef keepers especially if you don't know how to properly identify what the pest/disease is. I would think this is the only reason people recommend using dry rock.

[hogfanreefer]

I started with 60 lbs of live rock from TBS (cultured so it's not damaging the environment) and 100 lbs of dry rock from Reef Cleaners. This was a very cost effective solution for me. My tank went zero ammonia and nitrite in 10 days.

Good hitch hikers....countless feather dusters, sponges, hidden cup corals. 7 rock boring urchins that grew from thumbnail size to 3.5" across pretty quickly. I sold them to my LFS and get to see one of them in their DT every time I visit. A really cool porcelain crab X2. Two yellow pistol shrimp.

Bad hitch hikers....10+ gorilla crabs, 2 polyclad flat worms, 3 whelks and 1 eucinid worm. No aiptasia. Most of the pests have been easy to eliminate with the exception of the gorilla crabs and that's mostly just because they haven't caused any trouble yet and I haven't been as diligent as I should have been in trapping them.

Was it worth it for me....definitely! Dealing with the pests was actually kind of fun.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by apstreck

How is it a false belief that the rock will turn live? Does it take longer to establish an effecting biological filter with dry rock? Certainly. Once established, is it any less effective than it would be when starting with dry rock? Not at all. It's also MUCH cheaper, and friendlier to the environment as its not being harvested from active reefs. The only thing I miss about not having live rock is an instant population of pods and bristleworms, but those can be supplemented.

Allow me to clarify: dry rock does become "live" in the biological filtration sense, but it's never "live" in the bio diversity sense. There's a lot more than bristleworms and pods on live rock. A LOT more and 99% of of it is good and you might occasionally end up with a pest you need to work with (though I never have, fingers crossed). That and live rock has a tendency to seemingly sprout life out of nowhere even months and years after being placed into your tank. Looking into your tank on a day to day basis and being surprised is cool.

You do make a good point about rocks coming from live reefs though. Then again, the endlessly popular "pukani" dry rock is also harvested from live reefs as well. I'm sure there are businesses out there that practice sustainable live rock cultivation.

[RocketEngineer]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

I'm sure there are businesses out there that practice sustainable live rock cultivation.

I know of two that are based in the Gulf of Mexico: Gulf Live Rock and Tampa Bay Saltwater.

Both of these placed rocks on the sea floor many years ago and are systematically harvesting the oldest for sale while adding new stuff to be inhabited.

I used Gulf Live Rock go purchase a refresh batch because they do shipping via common carrier. There are a number of folks with tanks using "The Package" by Tampa Bay Saltwater but they tend to ship air freight to the nearest airport.

[3dees]

I started my tank one year ago with 150 lbs. of live rock from Gulf Live Rock. I feel really lucky as the only pests were two aptasia which are now gone. my tank cycled in ten days without adding shrimp or anything. may not be the best looking rock, but I'm completely happy with it.

[kw22]

I like the idea of seeding.In Ireland it is around 10 euro per pound,give or take a little.Or 2.50-5.50 per pound of dry rock.

using 50/50 you WILL seed the dry rock with life and your saving money,the only difference is you have to wait a little longer for 100% live rock.

[jeperry3]

It's just so much fun to watch a tank with real live rock mature over time. So, why does it seem like newcomers are "scared" more toward dry rock these days? There's NOTHING like starting a tank with 90-100% live rock, not this "mostly dry rock and I'll add a few pieces to seed it" stuff.

Like you, I a am returning to the hobby after several years absence. On top of the prevalent use of dead rock I am amazed at how quick people are to drop their live rock in acid, Clorox, freshwater or Easy-bake Oven, whatever will kill it. Part of the fun of the hobby for me was having something show up in your tank and having no idea it was their. (porcelain crab after 2 years was way cool.) I have had frustrating times with algae, including being taken over by a hitch-hiking macro, but it never lessened the amazement at life on those stupid pieces of rock.

I hope the hobby has not become too sterile.

Forgive the rantings of a soon to be old fart.

[Rognin]

I started off with a 55gal sumpless. After reading and learning and changing the HOB filter for a skimmer (etc etc etc). I was told to only use LR and so I bought 57lbs of Jakarta (18.99$/lbs). I was told it was the best thing I could do.

One year later after battling multiple crabs, majano, aipasia, grape culpera, multiple huge worms, bryopsis and hydroids. I quit trying. I've setup my 145 with only dry and a couple small pieces of fresh LR from the LFS (which I thoroughly inspected).

I am a happy reefer since the change.

[tomreefer]

you can add diversity though like pods, worms, etc to dry rock.

[Fish Ed]

I've used live rock when I first started marine tanks, it was a mistake. I had gorilla crabs, red turf algae, other algaes, worms, flatworms. Never got rid of that red turf algae, I still have that very same rock, in my quarantine tank. But the good thing is it came with a rhodactis, and ofcourse coralline, pods and all that beneficial bacteria and stuff.

But now Ive been using dry rock, which is way better IMO. I find it easier to aquascape/hardscape because I can do it out of water and without clouding up easily when I do it in water. Also I don't mind using bare hands. I wear gloves when using live rock which I don't know where it came from, call me a p*ssy. Also it don't take too long to cure it. Atleast it's safer with no pests. I seed it with a live rock which I'm certain there isn't a pest. Also choosing a dry rock is easier, it's like picking rocks or driftwood for freshwater aquascape, they're in a tub or some sort where you can lay them all out, choose the right one and hardscape on spot. I won't be doing that with wet rocks, it'll drench the LFS floor.

There's a better option of rock I believe, it's artificially made so it's environmentally safe. Different brands make them differently, usually from ceramic. The more porous it is the better. And these are pretty expensive more than live rock. But the shapes are pretty sick! Don't have to hardscape from scratch, I was gonna get it until I look at the price tag, it'll cost a lot to fill up even my 55 gallon. BRS reef saver rock is nice too, probably the best, but it's not artificial, according to their website it's mined from fossil reefs.

[tomreefer]

I setup 3 tanks. 2 with live rock and my first dry rock is cycling now. The 2 with live rock I had a Aiptasia and hair algae problem which was driving me nuts.

[tkeracer619]

You can easily add diversity through live rock and coral purchases.

Dry rock is cheap and used properly can be very successful.

I much rather seed my tank with an incredible few pieces of live rock then a bunch of boxes of unknown. It doesn't take that long for the life to spread with proper conditions.

[CuzzA]

I don't think anyone's trying to scare newbies. As mentioned, I have all of those good hitchhikers you mentioned without the pests and problems from simply adding corals, clams, etc. My tank has yet to experience any nuisance and my rock cost me a buck a pound. You wouldn't even know it was once dry.

But, just to scare someone... Check this out http://www.oregonreef.com/sub_worm.htm

I'll pass, thank you.

Also, I'll add that true live rock was probably the demise of many tanks and have dispatched many people from this hobby.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Also, I'll add that true live rock was probably the demise of many tanks and have dispatched many people from this hobby.

What makes you say that?

[Ztrain]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

I feel like people who never used live rock and went straight to dry rock, in the false belief that it would eventually end up "live", are really getting hoodwinked.


Am I alone here?

Actually they're not getting hoodwinked at all. I did an experiment in June using only Oceanic brand salt mixed RODI water, power heads, and a heater. By the end of the experiment I was able to spike my ammonia up to 20ppm and it would be processed down to under 1 in 48 hours. That's quite a bit of bacterial life. No additives or anything other then ammonia and bacteria in the air we breath.

As for the other things, if I want it in my tank I'm sure I can find someone willing to sell it.

[Liba]

I started in May and bought the nano package from gulfliverock. 80$ shipped for some awesome rock . Had snails, bristle worms, some leathers and marine plants. Loves it. Recommend their live rock to anyone.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by Ztrain

Actually they're not getting hoodwinked at all. I did an experiment in June using only Oceanic brand salt mixed RODI water, power heads, and a heater. By the end of the experiment I was able to spike my ammonia up to 20ppm and it would be processed down to under 1 in 48 hours. That's quite a bit of bacterial life. No additives or anything other then ammonia and bacteria in the air we breath.

As for the other things, if I want it in my tank I'm sure I can find someone willing to sell it.

I clarified in the thread that I wasn't referring to bacteria.

[RocketEngineer]

Originally Posted by Liba

I started in May and bought the nano package from gulfliverock. 80$ shipped for some awesome rock . Had snails, bristle worms, some leathers and marine plants. Loves it. Recommend their live rock to anyone.

That's the package I got to add to my existing LR when I upgraded. I put the rocks with lots of algae types on them in the refugium. I now have 5 different types of algae growing in there, all at different rates. The dry rock now has sponges, feather duster worms, and a number of different small inverts make nightly appearances plus spots of halimeda and other macro algae. It just takes patience.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by RocketEngineer

That's the package I got to add to my existing LR when I upgraded. I put the rocks with lots of algae types on them in the refugium. I now have 5 different types of algae growing in there, all at different rates. The dry rock now has sponges, feather duster worms, and a number of different small inverts make nightly appearances plus spots of halimeda and other macro algae. It just takes patience.

Would you mind clarifying your rock set up here? It sounds like you had dry rock in the display and then bought a gulf package to supplement it both in your fuge and display?

[RocketEngineer]

Originally Posted by ktownhero

Would you mind clarifying your rock set up here? It sounds like you had dry rock in the display and then bought a gulf package to supplement it both in your fuge and display?

It's a little long but here is My Build Thread.

Almost 18 months ago, I upgraded from a 75g to a 125g. In the process I took several of the big rocks out of the 75g setup that I didn't like. The remainder was combined with BRS Pukani dry rock that I had been "cooking" for about 3 months beforehand. Dry Rock Arrives. New Setup First Day.

Shortly after I had the new tank up and running, I started experiencing issues and ultimately lost almost everything in the tank. The Crash. About 9 months after the crash, I decided I wanted to re-introduce the biodiversity that I used to have before everything went sideways. Gulf Live Rock Arrives.

Since then the most notable changes in the tank have been the algaes and sponges. A big part of the reason why some of the life didn't survive is my fault but that which did has spread out to all the rocks in the system. Those bare rocks from 18 months ago are now covered in life (and GHA....still working that).