Nitrate Frustration

[treyman]

I've been revamping my FOWLR tank for about 4 months now, trying to get prepared to turn it into a reef. im having serious frustration with my nitrates tho. Ammonia & Nitrite are non recognizable by my API test. nitrates are off the scale tho.

i currently have a 120 gallon DT with 29 DIY sump. (roughly 140 gal total system) i have been doing 20% water changes weekly for 6-8 weeks now. Tank has 1(ONE) 2-3 inch clown in it. 75 lbs of live rock, and 40-50 lbs of live sand.
there are no other fish in the tank. i feed 2-3 flakes of food for the clown every other day.
sump has an under powered skimmer. rated for 65gal. however as you read above my load is not high. i have a 9 Watt UV sterilizer. i change my filter sock every 2 weeks. im running carbon in the sump as well.
i made a ATS a while back had it running for a month with it not pulling anything. i just re-hooked it up. the DT does have algae growing inside. i dont have a phosphate test, but im assuming they are high also.

so ive come to 2 conclusions at this point. my live rock / live sand are the issue. or my API test kit is not working. (I used the test kit to test my water change water, and it read 0 nitrates. so im doubting that test kit is broken)
I have an RODI for my water change water, so im not adding nitrates there

im thinking of ripping out all the rock and sand and just starting over with new. (which sounds like a terrible idea to me, but im running out of options) does anyone have any other suggestions?

[B.BASH]

First I would get better test kits run gfo in a reactor to remove phosphate prepare a 50% wc blow off all rocks and and top layer of substrate with a turkey baster to loosen detritus suck out as much as u can along with algae and do wc repeat until levels are acceptable if you can a refugium with macro can help with nitrate

[Docdiggy]

You have 1 little fish in that big tank and you have high nitrates?? I would try another test kit.

[treyman]

got the sera test kit. it reads Greater than or equal to 100ml / liter. which is as high as the test goes... awesome. will do another big water change tomorrow. but i doubt it fixes it...

[RocketEngineer]

The problem you have is the way the nitrates are being reduced into nitrogen gas in your current setup is limited. The best solution is a Bucket RDSB. The idea is to create a low oxygen zone where bacteria will be forced to use the nitrates and generates nitrogen gas which then exits the water entirely. I installed one on my 125g setup that had the same problem, nitrates no about of water changes fixed. A simple 5g bucket, 60 pounds of FINE sand, a spare pump and some plumbing and I now have ZERO nitrates. The idea is to have high flow across the water surface and NO higher life, just bacteria, sand and flow. Simple, single purpose, effective.

[Bryopsis]

Look into carbon dosing, you'll laugh at nitrates.

[RDuhb]

Originally Posted by docdiggy

you have 1 little fish in that big tank and you have high nitrates?? I would try another test kit.

+1

[DamonG]

I am with the others and would for sure try a new test kit (I like red sea for nitrate). If the new test kit says high, build yourself a nitrate reactor. All you need is 2 phosban 150's(or a 150 and a 550) or better yet, because it's a better reactor, 2 avast mr5's, some Carib Sea sulfur, some aragonite, a tiny powerhead and a small ball valve (the one from the phosban world's great).

What you are doing is just filling 1/4 of the first phosban reactor(on top of the sponge) with sulfur, then fill it the rest of the way with aragonite. Then, full the second reactor completely with aragonite. Cap both reactors. Connect the powerhead to the input of the first reactor with a valve before the reactor. Take the chamber that had the sulfur and aragonite bed and that is your first in the series. Connect the output to the input of the second reactor. Take the output of the second reactor and that is going into your sump. The output line that is going into the sump, you want to leave it out for observation at first. I will explain how it works after the setup to get it running.

You then hang your reactor series on your sump, close your valve, plug in your powerhead, and slowly open the valve. You only want a trickle of water going it out the reactor back into the sump. A very small trickle. Use the valve of course to adjust this.. Now wait!

It takes about 2 to 3 weeks for the sulfur to begin changing color. It's going to turn black so don't be shocked! You want it black. It's also going to stink like eggs, so once you smell that, your going to want to place the output tube underwater close to your skimmer input.. Then, lol, just test! Adjust the flow so that it drops your nitrate level day by day. But.. And here is the thing.. It only gets stronger over time! When I used to run them, mine started as a stream and ended up being a slow trickle. Nitrates were completely gone and the only thing I really had to do, was to top off aragonite.

Now, let me explain how it works and the clever thing about them! This was trial and error on my part and a fantastic discovery(without spending 600.00 on a pre built nitrate reactor) and a good water chemistry lesson to boot.. . Lol.. Your creating an anaerobic bacteria environment within the sulfur that does a few things. First, the bacteria consumes your nitrate like crazy(mine also consumed phosphate, but not as massive as nitrate) . Second, it lowers the pH of the water/effluent going through it(which allows the third) . Third, which is a added plus of the second, your creating a calcium reactor.. Lol! I will explain:The lowered pH from the sulfuric acid does the same exact thing as injecting c02 does in a calcium reactor(just makes the water acidic and below 6.5). This, then dissolves the aragonite, releasing minerals. The whole reason for the excess amount of aragonite gravel, is to buffer, remineralize and restabilize the effluent by the time it comes out of the output. Your really killing multiple birds with one stone.

The catch is, your dealing with sulfuric acid.. Once you put that thing online, wear gloves whenever you have to open it up(either chamber) . Remember that, and honestly, it's pretty much set and forget it, except to make sure every once and a blue moon that it's still flowing water through it. I used to just look at mine one a month to make sure it was still trickling water.

But thats it.. Lol.. The main reason I think a lot of the reactors that were sold had so many problems(low pH, etc) was simply because there was not enough aragonite to bring the pH back up. The same thing with calcium reactors. Avast makes an ad on chamber for their calcium reactors that does the exact same thing.

[treyman]

went with the RDSB. using silica sand from Home Depot. and a Food grade 5Gal bucket from Lowes.

have a small leak in the lid for the bucket. but considering i paid $25 for everything needed. its well worth a shot. will update as results come in.

thanks for the ideas.

[Crooked Reef]

Diatoms feed of of silicates. Probably won't be an issue in a remote sand bed but if you start to get diatoms blooms it's probably from there.

[treyman]

yup, diatom bloom now. pulling off the RDSB. really struggling with what to do here.
now im back to the point where today im going to rip out all the rock and all the sand, just go bare everything. and am going to start over with new rock and new sand.

to replace, i was going to get sand from the LFS, and buy rock that i like. as this rock was given to me when i got my first tank.
was thinking rock from BRS or Live Aquaria.

im really open to suggestions if anyone has any.

-TM

[gbru316]

Originally Posted by Bryopsis

Look into carbon dosing, you'll laugh at nitrates.

I agree with this advice, though, you may want to upgrade your skimmer.

I fought high nitrates for 2 years, during which time I tried just about everything. Building a better performing skimmer (probably way too big for the tank, honestly) and vinegar dosing is what won the battle. After about 2 months of daily carbon dosing, my test today read 0 for both nitrate and phosphate for the first time ever.

[Nina51]

don't know if it would make any difference in your nitrates but you probably need way more live rock than 75#.

[Retromagnolia]

I recall you saying that you would like to turn this fowlr tank into a reef tank. �� yeah! There is hope yet! Don't give up! It took me a few tries before I was able to figure this out.
you're already on the right track with the one fish in there. The nitrates are not from your clown. I would recomend redoing your rockscape so that there is flow going ALL around it. Creating small island structures that are not against any of the walls is a definite start. Live rock is a large basis for the biological filtration but it will trap nitrates like nobody's business if there are dead spots. This a is a real pain in the butt, the end result is worth it tho.
Another thing to consider is a refugium. This would seed the tank with amphipods and copepods while absorbing nitrates and phosphates.
My question though is what are your other specs in your tank? When I had nitrate and algae problems I temember I had chronic low calcium and high alk, low ph. If you're finding the same issues then I would recommend either kalkwasser dosing or a two part alk/calc. When I managed to actually get these specs in order I immediately saw better results. Magnesium dosing to the point of 1800ppm creates an environment that prohibits nuisance algae, imo.
Reactors work great, shop around, research research. Bulk reef supply has great supplements and tutorial videos.
If you are able to move forward and start a reef tank I would recommend getting rid of the uv steralizer. It kills the good along with the bad, can starve a reef tank of free floating organisms that are needed.
I wish you luck! We have to be stubborn to get through these issues, pure and simple!

[MJNTWise]

Hang on guys...Didn't any of you catch that he only changes his sock every 2 weeks.....I would start there....Start changing it everyday.....Your filter sock is your best mechanical filtration you have right now....I would try that first....

[Retromagnolia]

I agree with the carbon dosing too, that's worth looking into. You MUST have a good skimmer for that though because it's what actually removes the nitrates from the water. Without it you just have carbon bonded to nitrates chilling in the tank. Can cause cyano blooms.
I know it's against the grain but I have to debate the more live rock idea Nina. I know everyone says that we should have the same lbs/ gallon ratio but I just can't shake that fact that since I cut my live rock down by 2/3 I've had consistently 0 nitrates. It's also added water volume in the tank which is a plus right? My personal opinion only, could be wrong but works for me. I hope this helped Treyman!

[PhaneSoul]

Originally Posted by MJNTWise

Hang on guys...Didn't any of you catch that he only changes his sock every 2 weeks.....I would start there....Start changing it everyday.....Your filter sock is your best mechanical filtration you have fight now....I would try that first....

+1 your rock and sand probably have excess nutrients as well. Do you blow off your rocks or siphon your sandbed?

[dkeller_nc]

Keep in mind that replacing your rock and sand will do nothing for nitrates - you'll start off low as you cycle/populate the sand and rock with bacteria, but the nitrates will be back in a few short weeks/months.

There are really only 2 ways to bring nitrates down in reef tanks - denitrification bacteria or water changes. Since nitrate is being generated constantly from fish food, water changes aren't a very attractive option, particularly because you'd need to make massive, regular changes to keep nitrates <5ppm on a consistent basis.

Bacteria, whether encouraged by the addition of liquid carbon supplements (vinegar, vodka, or a commercial product), dissolving solid carbon (biopellets), or a sulfur/ethanol dintrification reactor, is the way to go. They can reduce nitrates in a system to undetectable and keep them there with little effort by the aquarist.

The simplest means of doing this is carbon dosing via vinegar; one only needs to add a few mLs of vinegar each night with the fish food, and have an adequate skimmer that's cleaned every few days.

You will, by the way, need to remove your filter socks and/or other mechanical filtration from your tank's system, as these will rapidly clog with the additional bacteria in the water column and in shed biofilms from carbon dosing.

Here's an article on the topic to get you started.

[OrQidz]

Lots of good ideas for fixes. I would wonder where the nitrates came from in the first place. Was the tank heavily stocked at one time and maybe full of nutrients still? I agree about needing to aggressively remove detritus and stir things up a bit if there is stuff settled into nooks and crannies. I change out my filter pad/wool daily to remove the junk that collects there.

I think you are correctly assuming you have elevated phosphates too. In which case whichever remedies you try, look into how they affect phosphate as well. (I have no experience with carbon dosing or DSBs, reactors, etc).

Running some GFO and maybe fresh carbon or another chemipure would probably help.

Good luck!

Good luck!

[treyman]

thanks everyone. ill do more research on the carbon dosing. i have an apex so ph is at 7.85 right now. i do water changes with reef crystals. i dont have anything to test alk or calcium. i do want the vortex 150 skimmer. but at $400 its going to have to wait until Christmas.
i have re-aranged my rock so it gets current all around it. i drilled holes and put a fiber rod though the holes to make towers that lean against each other. before that they were just a pile of rock. now they are caves and arches.
i also have a BRS dual reactor that is runing GFO and carbon. my phospate test read zero or near zero last time i tested.
will pull the RDSB and the Filter socks for now. and continue to do water changes until the time in which i can get a better skimmer.

thanks!
TM

[treyman]

i "rescued" the tank from a school that was not paying attention to it. that was 3 years ago. about 6 months after rescuing my heater blew up and cooked the tank. lost all the fish that were in it. 10 or so maybe.
when i first got it, it had a huge green algea problem.
since then i made a stand, made a new sump, slowly upgraded all the filtration parts i could afford. got a new tank, made a new canopy. and im really ready to turn it into a Reef. but got to get this nitrate issue under control first.

[OrQidz]

sounds like you are on the right track! Probably just a lot of nutrients to remove and it takes a while.

[Eric45]

Just dose the cheapest vodka you can find. Nitrates will be at zero within 2/3 months. Start at a small dose (2 ml) and increase maybe 1/2 ml each week. You'll see NO start to drop within a couple of weeks. When it gets to zero, cut back the vodka to about half of the highest dose and keep it there. If NO starts to return, just increase the daily vodka dose.
It's a very well-tested method.

[RocketEngineer]

Wait, so you used the wrong type of sand for the RDSB and wondered why you had diatom problems? Why not spend the $50 plus whatever shipping takes and get the RIGHT STUFF? Going cheap isn't going to fix the problem but you don't need to totally destroy the system. You just have to use the right method and give it enough time.

[gbru316]

I've used silica sand off and on for many years and have never had diatom issues with it. Anecdotal, I know, but I doubt that's the problem. I could be wrong though. Certainly wouldn't be the first time

I probably would have given it some time before pulling the RDSB. I get the occasional diatom bloom in my barebottom tank and it usually goes away after a few days. Too often in the hobby, I see knee-jerk reactions that either do more harm than good, or do nothing at all. It can be hard to fight the "fix-it" instinct when we see things that we identify as a problem, but sometimes it's best to take a step back and really look at the situation before jumping to action.