Should I Restart?

MHG · 11/25/2014, 10:35 AM

well, I am at a point where about 90% of my SPS are dead. For 3 years it was going better and better. It was at the point where I was fragging weekly... I had to build a bigger frag system my growth was so good. Hereis my system when things were going well...

I have not a clue as to why things are dying. Color looks the same. They just starts STS'ing. Some from the base. Some from the tips, some melt away from the middle. Two colonies are growing like weeds. My frog spawn is fully extended but some of the heads looks bad. mouth exposed. or like they are getting blasted with the power head. Yet the pump location has not changed and it grew to the size of a football before the down turn. My zoas look so so. Growth on those have stopped. Here is the thread on its demise...

It seems to be more stable now. But the last few are not recovering. One of the ones that is growing is showing less PE lately.

PH:8.1
Alk:9.0
Calc:425
Mag:1380
P04:0 (GFO)
Nitrates 2.5 (Vodka Dosing. Otherwise I is 20)
Salinity stable at 35
Temp 78 and stable. (chiller during warm months)

Poly filter shows no metal
Nothing new added for at east 3 months before the problem started.
Inspection of colonies shows no bugs. Or at least from what I can see.
Fish are fat and happy

I dose nothing but two part. Though it may have been a bad batch so I switched from ESV to BRS two part (also because it is way cheaper)
Started running carbon but no change. Been about a month.

I have a refugium but can not grow cheato. Never could. It just withers...

PAR of LED's has not changed...
Color of dying SPS is good so I am not suspecting a spectrum shift.

Been feeding pellets to fish and not spot feeding corals for over 3 years. So there is no change there...

No construction at the house. No cleaning lady. No new people in the house. Kids are older...

Anyway, since I was never happy with my rock work, I was considering restarting but I don't think there is a benefit unless I do a full new water, new sand , new rock, new water restart. I could just take the rock, cut it up and drop it in the sump and drop in some new aquascape creation since everything SPS is dead. Transfer the zoas to the FT and if the FT starts dying then I know I need a full restart.

I was also considering just changing my rock work and going fish and Anemone only...

Suggestions, comments, things to try or just make fun of me....

hart24601 · 11/25/2014, 03:27 PM

The only thing I would worry about with restarting is that if you never figure out what is wrong you could restart and have the same issues.

MHG · 11/25/2014, 05:57 PM

Agree.

tkeracer619 · 11/25/2014, 06:07 PM

If you are carbon dosing you should stay at 8.0dkh. You may be burning tips with 9dkh.

MHG · 11/25/2014, 08:14 PM

We'll I was at 7.6 on my alk when the problem started. As the demand dropped it seemed to be difficult to keep it there. I would agree with you if I was ULN. But with detectable nitrates I would tend to think 9 is not gonna matter. I am shooting to get it back down to that level . With colonies dying its hard because the demand dies with them. I don't want to cause the change to. Fast. But thanks for the suggestion. It may be the case..

MHG · 11/29/2014, 08:15 AM

We'll Saturday morning testing.... Let's see how it goes....

whiteshark · 11/29/2014, 08:29 AM

Boy that seems like a real mystery. I assume they aren't, but are any of your test kits expired? Are the probes good (pH, temp.)? All RO filters good? All pumps functioning properly? No stray voltage? No metal clamps near the water?

Maybe there was some chemical in your water that was in a very small concentration and not removed by the RO and just built up and built up over the years?

I agree with the others. I'd be hesitant to start over without having some idea of what caused the crash in the first place.

MHG · 11/29/2014, 09:28 AM

Thanks for all the suggestions.
New test kits and reagents (nitrate, alk, calc)
Mag is old but does not expire until 5/16
P04 reagent 4/16
Ph expires in 2017. Cheap kit but I have two probes. One standard and one research grade.

I would hope that the carbon would filter any chemicals and that the water changes would dilute it. RO/di filters have been changed.

The only two things I can think of is a bug I can not see but why does the stn present different in different colonies? Or a spectrum shift in the LEDs but they are not known for that...

I would do a full restart but that would require me to put all my fish in my 50 gallon frag system. I have a few reasons for not wanting to do that....

Test this morning showing my alk demand is dropping. So more death is coming...

cambo123 · 11/29/2014, 09:49 AM

If I remember, polyfilters only register for fairly large heavy metal concentrations...like >30ppm copper. But I think 10-30ppm is still enough to cause STN/RTN in most hard corals (I could be wrong). I think I posted in your other thread but man this just reminds me so much of my disaster (although mine went a lot quicker). Hard corals STN/RTN, softies looked iffy, fish fine. I ended up setting up a holding tank and ripping display apart. I washed everything in diluted muratic acid, bleached and acid washed the rocks, and started over.

tkeracer619 · 11/29/2014, 10:40 AM

There was this one tank i used to maintain that needed 50% water changes to keep sps.

Id start by pulling the sand. It could be hiding a contaminate. We changed the sand and things got better, we found a bunch of broken halide glass and assumed there were heavy metals present.

moondoggy4 · 11/29/2014, 01:11 PM

Have you painted with anti fungal paint?

Aww7979 · 11/29/2014, 01:18 PM

Just a thought based on my exp. if my system is not in harmony, my chato will melt away. I will usually have to stop using my gfo and let my po4 come up. Once I start getting chato to grow like mad I'll watch the hair alge in my tank, when it starts growing I'll start the gfo again.

Reef Junky · 11/29/2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aww7979

Just a thought based on my exp. if my system is not in harmony, my chato will melt away. I will usually have to stop using my gfo and let my po4 come up. Once I start getting chato to grow like mad I'll watch the hair alge in my tank, when it starts growing I'll start the gfo again.

I was going to suggest maybe water is to clean, maybe try and let po4 come up a tenth or so. Then run reactor more liberally with less media?

dg3147 · 11/29/2014, 01:29 PM

If you do rip apart, try setting up a holding tank for your SPS. I did that once under similar conditions and the SPS all came back to life in the holding tank. (my issue I think was low NO3 and Pho4...not your issue it seems)

1) Do you notice that the SPS rebound a bit after a large water change?

Also, did u check for stray voltage?

MHG · 11/30/2014, 09:19 AM

All thanks again for the suggestions. My system was floudoing very well for 2 years. Even during that time I could not keep cheato. Parameters are the same now as then. With 2.5 nitrates I would not call is too clean. Gfo has always been zero and I have had crazy growth.

Yes, I get better pe and some growth after water changes. This implies leaching of something. Stray voltage was checked early on and the water change would not effect that.

So today I tool my chiller off line for the winter. Let's see if that makes a difference...

cambo123 · 11/30/2014, 10:38 AM

Yeah, I agree. And looking at your old tank pictures I can't imagine this is a nutrient issue...just doesn't feel right. One comment on stray voltage. When I went through mine I tested for stray voltage and it never registered. One thing that is tricky about stray voltage is just because it is leaking doesn't necessarily mean it is going to register. For example, I don't believe my pump failure shocked anything! I think it shorted over a very small distance since both the + and - were exposed do to an improperly connected wire, causing copper ions to release into the water. One thing I would do is inspect all high wattage submersible electronics for cracks, leaks, and loose connections where they move into the water. i.e. skimmer pump, return pump, heater, chiller (I see you took that offline...good first step).

cambo123 · 11/30/2014, 10:41 AM

If you are interested in reading, for me it started here
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2368762

then
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2371995
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2381456
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2382751

At this point I restarted

Kyle918 · 11/30/2014, 10:49 AM

Could your PO4 be too low? I believe corals do absorb some PO4 as part of alkalinity. Have you always registered zero PO4, even before the decline in SPS?

billsreef · 11/30/2014, 11:22 AM

Sorry to here this Mike

Two thoughts come to mind. Growth of colonies altering existing water flow within the tank. In which case repositioning or even adding some new powerheads might help. Next, water changes are always good. I'd go for doing several closely spaced large water changes for good measure, just in case something is chemically out of whack.

MHG · 11/30/2014, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle918

Could your PO4 be too low? I believe corals do absorb some PO4 as part of alkalinity. Have you always registered zero PO4, even before the decline in SPS?

Always zero. From day 1...

MHG · 11/30/2014, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billsreef

Sorry to here this Mike

Two thoughts come to mind. Growth of colonies altering existing water flow within the tank. In which case repositioning or even adding some new powerheads might help. Next, water changes are always good. I'd go for doing several closely spaced large water changes for good measure, just in case something is chemically out of whack.

I can really only do two water changes a week. I have gone through two buckets of salt since this has started. whatever the issue is it is still ongoing. Water changes make it better but then it goes back. Thus something is still leaching. Or whatever magic is happening, it is still happening... Keeping my fingers crossed on the chiller leaching something.

MHG · 12/01/2014, 07:31 AM

Well, I have tested for stray voltage 3 times since this all began. always just a few millivolts. Yesterday I tested and no stray voltage. Tested again later and there was 20 volts.... So I threw a probe in there. Lets see...

I wish Apex would have a built in probe...Probably a liability issue. But at least measure for voltage...

cambo123 · 12/01/2014, 08:19 AM

Good news! Try turning equipment off untill the stray voltage goes away to isolate what's causung it.

MHG · 12/03/2014, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cambo123

Good news! Try turning equipment off untill the stray voltage goes away to isolate what's causung it.

well past that. I need to unplug it. The voltage does not go away when I just turn things off...

Been 3 days and the tank looks worse so I dont think I have found anything...

wcarterh · 12/03/2014, 10:06 PM

I had that issue with a 2 month old heater. Voltmeter and unplugging one by one.

11/25/2014, 10:35 AM	#1
MHG Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,919	Should I Restart? well, I am at a point where about 90% of my SPS are dead. For 3 years it was going better and better. It was at the point where I was fragging weekly... I had to build a bigger frag system my growth was so good. Hereis my system when things were going well... I have not a clue as to why things are dying. Color looks the same. They just starts STS'ing. Some from the base. Some from the tips, some melt away from the middle. Two colonies are growing like weeds. My frog spawn is fully extended but some of the heads looks bad. mouth exposed. or like they are getting blasted with the power head. Yet the pump location has not changed and it grew to the size of a football before the down turn. My zoas look so so. Growth on those have stopped. Here is the thread on its demise... It seems to be more stable now. But the last few are not recovering. One of the ones that is growing is showing less PE lately. PH:8.1 Alk:9.0 Calc:425 Mag:1380 P04:0 (GFO) Nitrates 2.5 (Vodka Dosing. Otherwise I is 20) Salinity stable at 35 Temp 78 and stable. (chiller during warm months) Poly filter shows no metal Nothing new added for at east 3 months before the problem started. Inspection of colonies shows no bugs. Or at least from what I can see. Fish are fat and happy I dose nothing but two part. Though it may have been a bad batch so I switched from ESV to BRS two part (also because it is way cheaper) Started running carbon but no change. Been about a month. I have a refugium but can not grow cheato. Never could. It just withers... PAR of LED's has not changed... Color of dying SPS is good so I am not suspecting a spectrum shift. Been feeding pellets to fish and not spot feeding corals for over 3 years. So there is no change there... No construction at the house. No cleaning lady. No new people in the house. Kids are older... Anyway, since I was never happy with my rock work, I was considering restarting but I don't think there is a benefit unless I do a full new water, new sand , new rock, new water restart. I could just take the rock, cut it up and drop it in the sump and drop in some new aquascape creation since everything SPS is dead. Transfer the zoas to the FT and if the FT starts dying then I know I need a full restart. I was also considering just changing my rock work and going fish and Anemone only... Suggestions, comments, things to try or just make fun of me.... __________________ MHG (LIRA Member) 60G Cube, Kessil 360's Last edited by MHG; 11/25/2014 at 10:36 AM. Reason: spelling

11/25/2014, 05:57 PM	#3
MHG Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,919	Agree. __________________ MHG (LIRA Member) 60G Cube, Kessil 360's

11/25/2014, 06:07 PM	#4
tkeracer619 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Westminster, CO Posts: 17,289	If you are carbon dosing you should stay at 8.0dkh. You may be burning tips with 9dkh. __________________ Hobby Experience: 9200ish gallons, 26 skimmers, and a handful of Kent Scrapers. Current Tank: Vortech Powered 600G SPS Tank w/ 100gal frag tank & 100g Sump. RK2-RK10 Skimmer. ReefAngel. Radium 20k.

11/25/2014, 08:14 PM	#5
MHG Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,919	We'll I was at 7.6 on my alk when the problem started. As the demand dropped it seemed to be difficult to keep it there. I would agree with you if I was ULN. But with detectable nitrates I would tend to think 9 is not gonna matter. I am shooting to get it back down to that level . With colonies dying its hard because the demand dies with them. I don't want to cause the change to. Fast. But thanks for the suggestion. It may be the case.. __________________ MHG (LIRA Member) 60G Cube, Kessil 360's

11/29/2014, 08:15 AM	#6
MHG Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,919	We'll Saturday morning testing.... Let's see how it goes.... __________________ MHG (LIRA Member) 60G Cube, Kessil 360's

11/25/2014, 03:27 PM	#2
hart24601 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 633	The only thing I would worry about with restarting is that if you never figure out what is wrong you could restart and have the same issues.

11/29/2014, 08:29 AM	#7
whiteshark Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Bethlehem, PA Posts: 3,024	Boy that seems like a real mystery. I assume they aren't, but are any of your test kits expired? Are the probes good (pH, temp.)? All RO filters good? All pumps functioning properly? No stray voltage? No metal clamps near the water? Maybe there was some chemical in your water that was in a very small concentration and not removed by the RO and just built up and built up over the years? I agree with the others. I'd be hesitant to start over without having some idea of what caused the crash in the first place. __________________ Deep Blue 60 gallon cube: Setup in progress.

11/29/2014, 09:28 AM	#8
MHG Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,919	Thanks for all the suggestions. New test kits and reagents (nitrate, alk, calc) Mag is old but does not expire until 5/16 P04 reagent 4/16 Ph expires in 2017. Cheap kit but I have two probes. One standard and one research grade. I would hope that the carbon would filter any chemicals and that the water changes would dilute it. RO/di filters have been changed. The only two things I can think of is a bug I can not see but why does the stn present different in different colonies? Or a spectrum shift in the LEDs but they are not known for that... I would do a full restart but that would require me to put all my fish in my 50 gallon frag system. I have a few reasons for not wanting to do that.... Test this morning showing my alk demand is dropping. So more death is coming... __________________ MHG (LIRA Member) 60G Cube, Kessil 360's

11/29/2014, 09:49 AM	#9
cambo123 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 337	If I remember, polyfilters only register for fairly large heavy metal concentrations...like >30ppm copper. But I think 10-30ppm is still enough to cause STN/RTN in most hard corals (I could be wrong). I think I posted in your other thread but man this just reminds me so much of my disaster (although mine went a lot quicker). Hard corals STN/RTN, softies looked iffy, fish fine. I ended up setting up a holding tank and ripping display apart. I washed everything in diluted muratic acid, bleached and acid washed the rocks, and started over.

11/29/2014, 10:40 AM	#10
tkeracer619 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Westminster, CO Posts: 17,289	There was this one tank i used to maintain that needed 50% water changes to keep sps. Id start by pulling the sand. It could be hiding a contaminate. We changed the sand and things got better, we found a bunch of broken halide glass and assumed there were heavy metals present. __________________ Hobby Experience: 9200ish gallons, 26 skimmers, and a handful of Kent Scrapers. Current Tank: Vortech Powered 600G SPS Tank w/ 100gal frag tank & 100g Sump. RK2-RK10 Skimmer. ReefAngel. Radium 20k.

11/29/2014, 01:11 PM	#11
moondoggy4 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: menifee So cal Posts: 11,042	Have you painted with anti fungal paint?

11/29/2014, 01:18 PM	#12
Aww7979 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Anchorage ak Posts: 97	Just a thought based on my exp. if my system is not in harmony, my chato will melt away. I will usually have to stop using my gfo and let my po4 come up. Once I start getting chato to grow like mad I'll watch the hair alge in my tank, when it starts growing I'll start the gfo again. __________________ "The odds are good, but the goods are odd." Current Tank Info: 90 gallon mix reef, 30 gallon sump, 100 pounds of LR, 4" DSB, Coralife 220 skimmer, fuge, 2 gen 1 XR30w LEDs with TIR lenses, 2 Vortech MP40s, and a Neptune Apex controler. Also recently added a bio pellet reactor.

11/29/2014, 01:29 PM	#14
dg3147 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 1,178	If you do rip apart, try setting up a holding tank for your SPS. I did that once under similar conditions and the SPS all came back to life in the holding tank. (my issue I think was low NO3 and Pho4...not your issue it seems) 1) Do you notice that the SPS rebound a bit after a large water change? Also, did u check for stray voltage? __________________ Elos 160XL \| Powermodule LED/T5 \| BK Double cone 200 \| Pasadena, CA Home page: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23482778#post23482778

11/30/2014, 09:19 AM	#15
MHG Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,919	All thanks again for the suggestions. My system was floudoing very well for 2 years. Even during that time I could not keep cheato. Parameters are the same now as then. With 2.5 nitrates I would not call is too clean. Gfo has always been zero and I have had crazy growth. Yes, I get better pe and some growth after water changes. This implies leaching of something. Stray voltage was checked early on and the water change would not effect that. So today I tool my chiller off line for the winter. Let's see if that makes a difference... __________________ MHG (LIRA Member) 60G Cube, Kessil 360's

11/30/2014, 10:38 AM	#16
cambo123 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 337	Yeah, I agree. And looking at your old tank pictures I can't imagine this is a nutrient issue...just doesn't feel right. One comment on stray voltage. When I went through mine I tested for stray voltage and it never registered. One thing that is tricky about stray voltage is just because it is leaking doesn't necessarily mean it is going to register. For example, I don't believe my pump failure shocked anything! I think it shorted over a very small distance since both the + and - were exposed do to an improperly connected wire, causing copper ions to release into the water. One thing I would do is inspect all high wattage submersible electronics for cracks, leaks, and loose connections where they move into the water. i.e. skimmer pump, return pump, heater, chiller (I see you took that offline...good first step).

11/30/2014, 10:41 AM	#17
cambo123 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 337	If you are interested in reading, for me it started here http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2368762 then http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2371995 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2381456 http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2382751 At this point I restarted

11/30/2014, 10:49 AM	#18
Kyle918 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 642	Could your PO4 be too low? I believe corals do absorb some PO4 as part of alkalinity. Have you always registered zero PO4, even before the decline in SPS? __________________ Work in Progress: 75g Rimless DT \| 20g sump \| Aquamaxx ConeS-1 \| Two Tunze Turbelle 6025 Tank established 02/16/14

11/30/2014, 11:22 AM	#19
billsreef Moderator 10 & Over Club Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: Long Island, NY/North Miami Posts: 36,538	Sorry to here this Mike Two thoughts come to mind. Growth of colonies altering existing water flow within the tank. In which case repositioning or even adding some new powerheads might help. Next, water changes are always good. I'd go for doing several closely spaced large water changes for good measure, just in case something is chemically out of whack. __________________ Bill "LOL, well I have no brain apparently. " - dc (Debi) Current Tank Info: Far too many tanks according to my wife, LOL.

12/01/2014, 07:31 AM	#22
MHG Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 2,919	Well, I have tested for stray voltage 3 times since this all began. always just a few millivolts. Yesterday I tested and no stray voltage. Tested again later and there was 20 volts.... So I threw a probe in there. Lets see... I wish Apex would have a built in probe...Probably a liability issue. But at least measure for voltage... __________________ MHG (LIRA Member) 60G Cube, Kessil 360's

12/01/2014, 08:19 AM	#23
cambo123 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 337	Good news! Try turning equipment off untill the stray voltage goes away to isolate what's causung it.

12/03/2014, 10:06 PM	#25
wcarterh Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Tn, USA Posts: 238	I had that issue with a 2 month old heater. Voltmeter and unplugging one by one. __________________ The devil is in the details. Current Tank Info: 68 Gal with 20 gal sump.