Why not run ultra high light refugiums?

[R_Mc]

I believe we can run very high light refugiums to maximize algae growth in small spaces. I have noticed a huge amount of growth over the last week after changing from a 25w daylight bulb to a 75w cob red led "grow light". This is a small 3g hob fuge - the light is 2 inches from the surface of the water.

Using this light - which can be had for $45 elsewhere. http://m.dhgate.com/product/75w-cob-...58.html#pd-117

Most literature seems to suggest very low wattage lights for fuges - but as much wattage as you can for scrubbers. Why is this? Is anyone else running a high watt macro grow out - what are your results?

[syrinx]

I have always used halides for my algae refugium- along with a crazy high flow sump for my home tanks. Never have algae in upper tank, because I out compete it in the sump. Low flow is great for keeping skimmers, but higher light and flow gets rid of nutrients before the tank can utilize them. It has cured many tanks that had no testable levels of nutrient- yet still had algae in the display. The key is to use a 24 hour or reverse to the tank light cycle to prevent ph shifts that can occur when the tank and algae lights are both off at same time.

[reefgeezer]

IME, algae growth is generally limited by a lack of nutrients rather than light. I've never read anything suggest low light is preferable. I think most opt for the least expensive/heat inducing light that does the job. I use an LED spotlight bulb from Home Depot.

[SantaMonica]

You certainly could use high wattage light, and basically you would just be making a scrubber there.

[R_Mc]

I think my confusion comes from the conflation of 'refugium' designs that proliferate this hobby. That said - when I read up on growing macro most articles recommended the cheapest cfl you could get at home depot. Which is not to say that a cheap cfl wouldn't work...but I wonder why the recommendation isn't - get the highet efficiency/wattage light you can afford.

I guess there are some prequalifiers - mainly...what is it that we want our refugium to do?

1)Grow pods
2)DSB denitrification
3)Additional lr / water
4)Lower nutrients with macro

And if we do want 1and 4 do we have to compromise?

[laga77]

In my refugium, I run 2, 4 inch par38 spot bulbs from HD. About $30 each. One from above and one from the side. I saw a huge increase in the rate of growth of my cheato and now I throw away handfuls every month.

[STPA]

I'm currently almost at the end of my new reef tank build. I had a nano reef tank for several years and after not having a tank for a few years decided I would do lots of research on different parts of reef ranks and filtration. Thought that since I was building most things myself I would put in what I thought would work the best. I used pc bulbs in the past and had ok growth. This time around I built a DYI led light that uses several different wavelengths to get the most growth out of my refugium macro algae. I just put some macro algae in a couple days ago so to early to report anything yet. Before I put water in my system I did do some experimenting with growing house plants with this light and had really good growth. Tested it over a two month period. My light was the only light this plant received and it tripled in size and had lots of new growth. After returning it back to its place next to a window growth has slowed. So I have high hopes for my light.

[5thChorseman]

I don't think we have to compromised, if we have a large enough sump to perform all 4 activities. I have an 18 gal sump that I have set up to do all 4. Whether it does all four well, I do not know.

Originally Posted by R_Mc

I think my confusion comes from the conflation of 'refugium' designs that proliferate this hobby. That said - when I read up on growing macro most articles recommended the cheapest cfl you could get at home depot. Which is not to say that a cheap cfl wouldn't work...but I wonder why the recommendation isn't - get the highet efficiency/wattage light you can afford.

I guess there are some prequalifiers - mainly...what is it that we want our refugium to do?

1)Grow pods
2)DSB denitrification
3)Additional lr / water
4)Lower nutrients with macro

And if we do want 1and 4 do we have to compromise?

[MidwesternTexan]

I use 3 x 100W equivalent 6500K CFL bulbs from Menards on my huge chaeto mass.
1 is 24/7, 2 are 14 on/10 off opposite the LED's on the Display.

Chaeto Grows like crazy in my sump/fuge.

[thejuggernaut]

Because growing a ball of weeds inside your stand isn't a very sexy use of money. People would much rather spend it on a fish, corals or that fancy new biopellet reactor. Can you keep a ball of cheato alive with a garage CFL light, yes, will it work as well as a well lit fuge with red LED's, absolutely not. Personally, I think it's a waste of time and sump space not to use higher powered lights. You have to remember, the whole purpose is to provide a more optimized environment, so throwing it in a low flowing sump with dimly lit lighting isn't going to out compete your display with 3k dollars worth of LED's and super high flow rates. Keep the cheato spinning with as many LED lights optimized for algae growth as you can.

[SantaMonica]

Try the LED grow-lights. Something like a 12 or 18 watt water proof one.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by R_Mc

I believe we can run very high light refugiums to maximize algae growth in small spaces. I have noticed a huge amount of growth over the last week after changing from a 25w daylight bulb to a 75w cob red led "grow light". This is a small 3g hob fuge - the light is 2 inches from the surface of the water.

Using this light - which can be had for $45 elsewhere. http://m.dhgate.com/product/75w-cob-...58.html#pd-117

Most literature seems to suggest very low wattage lights for fuges - but as much wattage as you can for scrubbers. Why is this? Is anyone else running a high watt macro grow out - what are your results?

Note that you have changed two things at the same time. Is better growth a result of higher wattage or better spectrum .... or both. Not sure that I'd agree that most literature advocates low wattage for a refugium where the goal is growing macro.

[Sk8r]

I use a 6500 k CFL floodlight in a shop light base.

[reefgeezer]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

I use a 6500 k CFL floodlight in a shop light base.

I did also. I recently replaced it with an LED version. More light/less power consumption. Interestingly about the same heat output. Oh yea... cost a little more to buy (~$20).

[d2mini]

I haven't started it up yet, but my refugium has a 150w HPS fixture over it.
Should be interesting.

[Dan_P]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

IME, algae growth is generally limited by a lack of nutrients rather than light. I've never read anything suggest low light is preferable. I think most opt for the least expensive/heat inducing light that does the job. I use an LED spotlight bulb from Home Depot.

I have undectable nitrate and phosphate levels (Salifert) and one 5000 K CFL spot light from Home Depot over the macro algae in my sump. It was surviving, maybe a little growth. I moved the live within a few inches of the surface and oxygen bubbles started to form shortly afterwards, followed by growth. I added a second CFL spot light and growth now is luxurious. I have to harvest it. Coincidently, my cyanobacteria growth started to weaken at the same time.

My conclusion, after reading a lot of forum posts and my little lighting experiment is that we underestimate the light needed for strong macro algae growth, including the folks writing the articles. As for micro algae nutrient needs, I think we have something to learn here too. The hair algae, or what is referred to as ephemeral species, need high concentrations of nutrients. But the slower growing, perennial types do well with much less. I suspect the macro algae we are growing fall in the latter category.

Refugium owners, fire up you lights!

[R_Mc]

D2 my man - that's what I'm talking about.

Like you said Juggernaut - if you're trying to grow weeds in your sump to export nutrients, more light is better....you're not going to "bleach" it like coral unless you don't have enough flow to keep the nutrient exchange flowing. After seeing this huge change in growth I would not hesitate to put 100 watts or more of red / blue Led's over my sump.

[DamonG]

Using a sunlight supply 150 watt hps also. If I was able to use higher wattage(if I had a remote fuge), I wouldn't hesitate. I have posted pictures of the crazy growth I get, and have with these lights. And I believe that if your going to throw a plant in there, throw as much light as you can without getting heat.

I have a 50 long dt and my sump is small(i believe it's only a 29) comparatively speaking. I definitely wouldn't spend a hundred or more on LEDs for the fuge, simply because you do not have to, and the benefits(as I used a led fixture previously as an experiment) aren't really worth it. Especially, when you can spend between 60 to 70 on a basic either halide or hps 150 watt HID horticultural fixture(1600 footcandles), that is tiny(mine,I think is only 14" long), doesn't heat things up, and has, for it's wattage, unmatched plant(in our case macro algea) canopy penetration.

I hadn't taken any pictures for a week or so because I am trying to build a natural bubble trap with my cheato, but here is mine and the results. And this is after two full gallon milk jug harvests. I am now two days short of a month. The first(9th of December) is what the cheato "looked like" under LEDs, and today's picture(the 7th of January) is what is there today. Also, not that on the left, the system has created it's own turf type of scrubber(the black part where water is flowing over the weir)..

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Not sure that I'd agree that most literature advocates low wattage for a refugium where the goal is growing macro.

I'm no expert with macros, but I've dabbled.
I think it really depends.
Something fast growing like cheato likes lots of light, on the low end of the spectrum.
Fancy macros like dragons breath like light with more blue in it, upwards of 8k and maybe lower light intensity.

So i think it depends on your goal (again, a reason to really define your goals BEFORE setting up your refugium). Do you want a cool display refugium with lots of macros, or do you want a powerhouse of nutrient export with a giant ball of cheato and nothing else?

[SantaMonica]

Another thing to think about, is that the "amount of light needed" is a variable, dependent upon the flow, attachment, stage of growth, and standing stalk.

Standing stalk is important when the growth area is white.

[Scuba_Steve]

I run 2 par 38 led grow bulbs using reds and blues

[R_Mc]

Can you elaborate on standing stalk SM? My new growth always starts white during periods of high growth - the new growth colors up 1-2 days later.

[SantaMonica]

Standing stalk is the amount of algae existing. White areas are the growth compartments of scrubbers (if they are colored white) to reflect the most light.

[natereinhold1]

I used to run a 250w mh and pc combo over my stock tank fuge and I had great growth (I feed a lot too) now in my jbj 28g, I modded the overflow chamber into a fuge and ive been using a 16x1w w/optics 10k led system right on the back glass shining throught the side so less than an inch away from the algae and as long as I scrape the glass once a week I got great growth until I started carbon dosing, now its all dying away because it doesnt have enough nutes to grown