Mildly Cloudy water issue

[rrmoore]

I started a 100 gal reef tank 9 months ago, and since then I have a consistent mildly cloudy water. I started off using Red Sea Pro Coral Salt mix. I never was able to get that salt mix to mix up clear for me, even after following the directions to the letter. During that time I also tried UV and charcoal to clear the water. Both failed. 6 weeks ago I changed my salt mix to Tropic Marin bio-actif in hopes that change would help the problem. But after 6 10% water changes I can't detect any clearer water. (After mixing this salt there are little white particles floating around. I also have to adjust the ALK because the salt mixes to a dKH of 5.)

My current parms
CA - 420
Mag - 1200
dKH - 8.1
pH - 8.2
Salinty - 1.023

I'm dosing CA, during the day, and ALK, at night, and also use kalkwasser in my top off system. I have a few little white specs over some of the rock and on the glass, which are easily scraped away. Nothing is accumulating on my heaters. I can't see any particels floating in the water. The water appears clearer in the morning than in the evening, but that difference might be attributed to the lighting. I use a felt filter sock. I would have to say that the cloudiness hasn't gotten any worse over the past 9 months.

Any suggestions about what I could try to clear up the water?

Thanks

[dkeller_nc]

My first thought was bacterial blooms, perhaps as the result of an additive like prodibio, but I'm thinking that would've cleared up on its own over the course of 9 months.

The other likely candidate is abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate. How are you mixing your saltwater? I'm not familiar with Tropic Marin's products, but I'm thinking that an initial 5 dKH is awfully low. One possibility is placing the salt in the mixing container and then filling it with RODI.

If that's not the case, could you tell us your overall system volume (we know the tank's 100g, but what about the sump?), and the total volume of the Ca & Alk supplements you're dosing?

[rrmoore]

DKeller_NC,

My total system volume is 107 gals. I'm dosing 9.9ml/day of ESV's B-Ionic Alkalinity and 6ml/day of ESV's B-Ionic Calcium. I started dosing about 4 months ago. At first I started using Red Sea products, but I've switched to ESV about a month ago. I haven't noticed any difference between the two when it comes to water clarity. Originally my CA was very iow, around 350, and my alkalinity about 7.0. But raising those particular levels hasn't cleared the water.

I mix the water as per the directions. I mix up 12 gals using RO/DI water and then I add the salt, a cupful at a time. The water is constantly being stirred by a powerhead. I'm supposed to use 6.0 cups but I've found that adding 5.5 cups gives me the desired salinity. Then I adjust the alkalinity. I've tried mixing it at higher temps, 78F, and lower temps 68F ,and neither produce clearer water. Each have white particles floating in it, along with overall cloudiness. The directions say that the water could be cloudy after mixing. Once added this added cloudiness does dissipate from the display tank along with the white particles. (The particles may be getting picked up by the filter sock.)

You gave me thought. Maybe I should skip a weekly water change and see if the water gets any clearer that second week. I'm just thinking out loud.

Thanks

[dkeller_nc]

Yeah, probably no issue with skipping a water change as a troubleshooting measure. Again, I'm not familiar with Tropic Marin's products, but I'd honestly not be happy with new saltwater that was cloudy and didn't clear up after mixing overnight. I'd also either let it settle or filter it though a filter sock as I was adding it into the tank - it's unlikely anything that was precipitated in the mixing barrel is going to help anything in the tank (or re-dissolve, for that matter).

Judging from the amount of ESV you're dosing, I don't think you're overdosing (and therefore causing abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate). But are you dosing by dosing pumps, or adding the Ca and Alk supplements as a bolus (all at once) dose?

If you're adding once per day (as I do), I might suggest that you dose one part, wait about 3 or 4 minutes, then dose the other. The idea here is that you want to keep the Ca and Alk concentrations balanced rather than excess Ca during the day, and excess Alk during the night. I think this one's a long shot, but it certainly won't hurt anything, and is easy to do.

[bertoni]

I'd let a sample of the water settle for a while, to see what might be happening. I keep thinking bacterial bloom, too, but it's strange that it's lasting so long. The same would be true of calcium carbonate precipitation problems, too, though.

[rrmoore]

I dose both CA and ALK via dosers. The 5/6 ml every hour over a 12 hour span. Then a 3 hour wait until the CA is dosed in even doses for the next 6. that allows another 3 hours before the ALK starts dosing.

I had tried UV to eliminate the cloudiness. Wouldn't that have cleared up any bacterial blooms, if set properly? Also, I let that run for a good 6 months before pulling the plug on that.

It's odd that both salt mixes would do this. I haven't seen any other threads about persistent cloudy water being tied to salt mixes.

This is a tough nut to crack. I was thinking about buying a cannister filter and putting the charcoal in there to see if something more powerful would clear up the water. (I had used charcoal in the past by letting the UV output pass through it before returning to the DT.)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

[Scubajoe1]

What size UV sterilizer did you have on the system when you ran that?

Joe

[dkeller_nc]

Jonathan (Bertoni) has an excellent suggestion that I didn't think of. Fill a decent-sized very clear glass bottle with your tank water and allow it to stand on your kitchen counter for a day. Bacteria will typically not settle out - Brownian motion will keep them suspended. Inorganic precipitates like calcium carbonate should settle out.

If you're going to buy a filter to clear your tank water, don't buy a canister. Buy a Vortex diatom filter. I have one of these from the 1980's. They're a little bit of a pain to use, but absolutely no other filtration method will get water clearer and faster than a Vortex.

But a better choice would probably be to buy a couple of 10 micron filter socks like the kind used by folks that use Lanthanum Chloride as a phosphate remover.

[rrmoore]

ScubaJoe1, I have an Aqua Ultrviolet Advantage 15W Unit 2000. I connected it up to an Ehiem compact hobby 2000 pump. That pump allowed me to adjust the flow rate. I ran it at its slowest flow rate for a few months. According to their doc that flow rate is 265gal/hour.

dKeller_NC, I'll fill a very clear bottle of tank water and set it out for a day and see what happens. I'll post those results, probably not until this weekend. In the meantime I'll research your two ideas.

Thank you both.

[Scubajoe1]

rrmoore. I myself am also thinking bacteria bloom. I know it has been a while and have not heard of one going on for so long but I would imagine it is possible. The UV sterilizer you mention says it's maximum capacity is 75 gallons salt water (much larger capacity fresh water). I am wondering if that is too small to clear your tank of bacteria in the water column? In my experience if they say maximum tank volume if 75 gallons you can pretty much assume 2/3 as to the actual capacity. 75 gallons maybe in a pristine tank with no current issues. Just a thought.

Warranty Housing: Limited lifetime warranty
Transformer: 90 days from date of purchase.
Max Tank Size 500 GALLONS (FW), 75 GALLONS (SW)
Inlet/Outlet 3/4 IN.

Scubajoe

[rrmoore]

Scubajoe, thanks for your reply. My LFS recommended this size to combat a very small ick breakout. I ran it at a slow flow rate. But maybe sizing it for an ick break out and water clarification are two different things. The manufacturer verified the size and flow rate. Maybe I should consider a properly sized UV.

I've been thinking about what could be the one constant throughout these nine months, and the one thing that came to mind is the addition of Continum's bacter clean-m. The product description is, "loosens debris and detritus cleans live rock and other surfaces". I added alot of this at the beginning of the nine months, and I have let up some, but I haven't eliminated the usage.

So, after determining the reason for the cloudiness, by the water in the glass test, I'll have a few good options if it's a bacteria bloom, UV or Diatom filter. I'll update the thread with the test results.

Thank you.

[dkeller_nc]

Originally Posted by rrmoore

Scubajoe, thanks for your reply. My LFS recommended this size to combat a very small ick breakout. I ran it at a slow flow rate. But maybe sizing it for an ick break out and water clarification are two different things. The manufacturer verified the size and flow rate. Maybe I should consider a properly sized UV.

I've been thinking about what could be the one constant throughout these nine months, and the one thing that came to mind is the addition of Continum's bacter clean-m. The product description is, "loosens debris and detritus cleans live rock and other surfaces". I added alot of this at the beginning of the nine months, and I have let up some, but I haven't eliminated the usage.

So, after determining the reason for the cloudiness, by the water in the glass test, I'll have a few good options if it's a bacteria bloom, UV or Diatom filter. I'll update the thread with the test results.

Thank you.

Actually, you've a much, much better solution to your issue - stop adding bacterial products. They're not necessary or even beneficial in a reef tank, though they do make a lot of money for the aquarium supplement companies.

[bertoni]

I agree that stopping the bacterial supplement might help. That might explain the persistence of the bacterial bloom.

[rrmoore]

Here's an update. I tried all of the recommendations and nothing really worked. I ran charcoal for a month and it cleared up just a little, it wasn't a reason to continue using it. I stopped the other bacteria products and again, I didn't see any results that would inspire me to stop using the products all together. So about the only thing that has changed between now and January is more fish and corals.

I've started to drastically increase the intensity and length of my lights. I've noticed that in the morning the water is really pretty clear. But by the end of the day it gets a little opaque. Other than the feedings the only other thing introduced during that time frame is my CA dosages, 8 doses of 1.1 ml throughout the day. ALK is dosed at night.

I just wanted to update the thread, because there is nothing more frustrating than reading a thread only to be cheated out of a conclusion.

I'll get around to updating this again, when I have my crystal clear water.

[alten78]

Algae bloom? If my PO4 gets too high and I need to clean the glass daily, my water is fairly cloudy....just a thought.

[Syntax1325]

Here's a thread that I started in January regarding a bacterial bloom that just wouldn't quit. I fixed the issue, but it took patience and help from Dr. Tim's "Refresh" and "Waste Away" products... My tank has been clear for months.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2473204