Copper in main tank

Oakes1523 · 03/21/2015, 04:14 PM

Once again ick is back in my tank after following for a long time, I'm sick of it. Can I just take the rock out and maybe the sand as well. And just keep a fish only tank with only fish that's all in my main tank. I'm thinking a display tank like a quarantine tank. Can I take rock and sand out and treat my tank with copper every time ick shows up again? Do I need to take the sand out or just the rock? No inverts at all. Is tha possible in any way? Cuz I know you can't use copper with inverts, rock or sand. Sand I think. Will this work? If I can use copper whenever I want in my main 75 gallon tank that would be awesome. I'll have a protein skimmer lots of filters. Please help

Sk8r · 03/21/2015, 07:29 PM

Absolutely not. Bacteria are inverts. Copper will kill them all.

Here's the simple way to fix this.

All fish to treatment and then quarantine for 12 weeks. NO fingers or nets passing between tanks.

DT running as per normal for those 12 weeks. Corals and inverts can stay, but you do not transfer anythhing wet between those tanks. After 12 weeks the infestation should have starved out. If you want to be sure, go 15 weeks.

But there's no reason to give up on your tank.

The reason you're getting repeated ich is that some source is providing it repeatedly or you have never been fishless in that dt for 12 weeks.

I would recommend the 12 week separating fish from the dt entirely---and in a BARE qt, first with ich treatment, then 12 weeks of isolation.

And then going with a different supplier entirely.

My total sympathy. It's NOT always like this. Something, some practice, or some source, is continually resupplying your tank with the problem. If you can change that, you'll be rid of it---hopefully for good. I haven't seen a case of ich in a decade, literally---so I know you can beat it.

Oakes1523 · 03/21/2015, 08:00 PM

I followed for 8 weeks already is that not enough?

Oakes1523 · 03/21/2015, 08:01 PM

Do white specks automatically mean ick? Cuz it kind of looks like some sand or fuzzy white thing

pyithar · 03/21/2015, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oakes1523

I followed for 8 weeks already is that not enough?

no. it's not enough. that's probably why ich is still in the sytem. you need to fallow at least 72 days.

pyithar · 03/21/2015, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oakes1523

Do white specks automatically mean ick? Cuz it kind of looks like some sand or fuzzy white thing

you should post a pic and tell us more about the of fish( rubbing? flashing? acting normal? eating normal? etc)

Oakes1523 · 03/22/2015, 02:05 AM

The clownfish is not rubbing and I don't think he's flashing, they both normally go after the frozen food but they are hesitant. At least one is. Acting normal though.

Oakes1523 · 03/22/2015, 02:09 AM

He has a white spot on his tail and one by his fin closer to his head.

((

Oakes1523 · 03/22/2015, 03:10 AM

So no way I can run a bare bottom tank without any live rock or sand. Only fish. With a protein skimmer and a big filter with refugium. Basically a really big qt tank as my display tank. Then once ick shows up I can dose it accordingly whenever I wan too. Please tell me a way I can do this if I can the way I'm thinking. I can't go another 2-3 months of looking at nothing but water. How do I make this work??

Mythicalelf · 03/22/2015, 08:20 AM

Where are your fish right now?Did you take them back to the store?
If not look at them in the QT. Also go stare at your DT you will see things. I was staring at mine last night and there was a larger pod running around.

BTW my tank is cycled but I haven't added anything yet cause they still are in QT.

kenpau · 03/22/2015, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oakes1523

So no way I can run a bare bottom tank without any live rock or sand. Only fish. With a protein skimmer and a big filter with refugium. Basically a really big qt tank as my display tank. Then once ick shows up I can dose it accordingly whenever I wan too. Please tell me a way I can do this if I can the way I'm thinking. I can't go another 2-3 months of looking at nothing but water. How do I make this work??

I'm not sure how possible this is as you need something for the bacteria to colonise, you'd have to have a big sump set up with a refugium and I'm guessing live rock and sand, which would totally defeat the purpose of what you are trying to achieve. Also as your skills as a reefkeeper grow will you want sand, rock, coral, inverts? It's great having a FOWLR tank and some people keep very nice ones but when you're in your LFS or looking at tank journals on here in the future, will you get that itch to take it to the next level?
There is another option which, is not totally accepted but it is one I am going through at the moment. I recently made the mistake of adding an infected White Cheek Tang to my display without quarantine as it wasn't showing any symptoms and the guy I got it from told me it had been in quarantine for 8 weeks.....stupid! Anyway rather than rip apart my reef trying to catch all my fish to treat I am enhancing their diet to try and strengthen their immune system in the hope they will fight it off. If you are going to try this I would suggest that 1. it needs to be in the early stages of infection and 2. you need to identify the stressor and remove it, otherwise ich will most likely keep coming back.

Art13 · 03/22/2015, 08:38 AM

when i had ich break out in my main tank, i set up a quarantine with a small powerhead, cheap light, and a canister filter filled with matrix bio media that was already seeded. I sat them in that tank for 3 months, treated with cupramine copper for i think a total of 1-2 months and then did a large water change and ran carbon in the canister to pull out the remaining copper and watched them for a month. i then put them back in the display after the 3 months and that was about a year ago. Still no ich. The time varies by source for how long to keep the tank fallow so i went with the greatest number i could find, better safe then sorry. Same with the treatment.

Oakes1523 · 03/22/2015, 12:14 PM

My fish are still in my main tank, did yall see my picture I posted? How do I know for sure it is ick? So how long do I really need to wait if I do this? I waited 8 weeks and I cant believe I screwed this up. 72 days? 3 months? That's such a long time

so I would qt my clowns the whole 72 days or whatever but treat with copper for about 1-2 months out of it and after 2 months watch them see how they are doing by themselves? Is It bad to leave them in copper the whole time? Or should I use cupramine for 2 weeks, wait a week, another 2 weeks and let them sit with out copper for 2-3 weeks until my tank is ready in 72 days....? What is the best way to qt? How long? I want to make sure I qt right

Oakes1523 · 03/22/2015, 12:20 PM

The spot is in front of his fin and the other is on his tail? How do I know forsure this is ick?

Sk8r · 03/22/2015, 12:41 PM

THat doesn't really look like ich---Ich is distinct, a half-dome like a pimple or whitehead, that then bursts to emit swimmers that head for the sandbed to complete another life cycle. It's actually swollen tissue.

What I'm seeing in the pix looks more like a possible bacterial infection, but again---not sure. What some of us are telling you---strengthen the fish and hope for the best---is indeed sometimes effective in a very large tank which can't qt everybody---or where it's something that may not be ich at all, that the fish may be able to throw off...It's the cross your fingers method, but by the otherwise good condition of these fish, you have a chance with it. Get a product called Selcon. It's a food supplement that will supply any deficiency the fish may have gotten into. It will boost general health. Garlic? Some fish love it like candy. Some don't. In any case, it's not a cure for anything except a poor appetite, granted the species likes it: and if the fish aren't eating well, that could help. I used it once on a rabbit: just got fresh garlic from the store and mashed it up. Stinky, but the fish thought it was candy. I'd say leave everything as it is, except bring your water to match the parameters of a healthy reef given in my signature line...and feed with Selcon. If it improves, great! If it doesn't get worse, great! If it gets worse, then pull to quarantine.

Two further points: yes, you can have a marine fish tank that runs like a goldfish bowl, lot of water changes, no sand, and strong filtration and aeration. It'll work. But it's not the best sort of environment for your fish, who'll like to prowl and hunt and someday have a coral to live in.

And if you should be down to no-fish and have a heavily ich-infested tank, what should you do with it? Easiest thing is to turn it into a coral reef with crabs and snails. And leave it that way a few months, like 3-4. THEN reintroduce carefully quarantined fish from a safe source.

Ich is not an infection: it's a sand parasite that HAS to have a fish in its reproductive cycle, and if it can't reproduce, it dies out. It's an animal, and not immortal, at all. There's a lovely sticky on the life cycle of this pest up top, and it will help you understand what's going on.

Oakes1523 · 03/22/2015, 12:54 PM

People are saying to only do copper if you see something wrong? I'm trying to make sure the fish is healthy before going in to the main tank. Is it okay to qt and use copper on every incoming fish?

Sk8r · 03/22/2015, 02:14 PM

Copper is a poison that kills parasites markedly faster than it kills fish, but it's sort of like dosing your dog or cat with DDT---there's not much effect, but it's not real optimal, and it does a little damage to a fish that's already been wild-caught, bagged, dumped through a distribution system, airshipped, plunked into a small public tank, bought, and plunked into a home tank with no care as to whether he has had anything to eat for the last two weeks. Then he gets the copper treatment, which is, like DDT, a poison, the level of which goes up and down by the hour if there's no ATO (autotopoff) on the qt---and it puts fish off their appetite for the duration of the treatment. Some species tolerate copper. Others, notably angels, are more sensitive to it. Frankly, I don't use it. Tank transfer is easy, non-poisonous, effective because of the lifecycle of the parasite.

There's one other reason not to use it: copper is incompatible with treatment for bacterial infections. So if you've used it, you first have to purify the system of copper before dosing the antibiotic that's actually needed for what the fish has, and your fish, weakened by the copper, and with his healthy slime coat blitzed by it, dies during the process.

Oakes1523 · 03/22/2015, 04:46 PM

What is tank transfer? What is the proper way to qt? How does leaving a fish in an empty tank doing anything? So I shouldn't use copper? If so when do I use it, how do i qt better to be successful. How do I fix bacterial infections. Are you saying copper isn't the worst thing they've been through. Honestly I just really worried about ick, whatever will kill ick I want to do. Other stuff I really haven't been through. Just ick. As long as my fish don't have ick and are eating, I'm calling this whole mudslide a successful.

pyithar · 03/22/2015, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oakes1523

What is tank transfer?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1996525

^ check out this thread.

Oakes1523 · 03/23/2015, 06:44 PM

Is there any videos on the procedure to do the tank transfer? That would be really helpful

03/21/2015, 04:14 PM	#1
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	Copper in main tank Once again ick is back in my tank after following for a long time, I'm sick of it. Can I just take the rock out and maybe the sand as well. And just keep a fish only tank with only fish that's all in my main tank. I'm thinking a display tank like a quarantine tank. Can I take rock and sand out and treat my tank with copper every time ick shows up again? Do I need to take the sand out or just the rock? No inverts at all. Is tha possible in any way? Cuz I know you can't use copper with inverts, rock or sand. Sand I think. Will this work? If I can use copper whenever I want in my main 75 gallon tank that would be awesome. I'll have a protein skimmer lots of filters. Please help

03/21/2015, 07:29 PM	#2
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Absolutely not. Bacteria are inverts. Copper will kill them all. Here's the simple way to fix this. All fish to treatment and then quarantine for 12 weeks. NO fingers or nets passing between tanks. DT running as per normal for those 12 weeks. Corals and inverts can stay, but you do not transfer anythhing wet between those tanks. After 12 weeks the infestation should have starved out. If you want to be sure, go 15 weeks. But there's no reason to give up on your tank. The reason you're getting repeated ich is that some source is providing it repeatedly or you have never been fishless in that dt for 12 weeks. I would recommend the 12 week separating fish from the dt entirely---and in a BARE qt, first with ich treatment, then 12 weeks of isolation. And then going with a different supplier entirely. My total sympathy. It's NOT always like this. Something, some practice, or some source, is continually resupplying your tank with the problem. If you can change that, you'll be rid of it---hopefully for good. I haven't seen a case of ich in a decade, literally---so I know you can beat it. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/22/2015, 12:41 PM	#15
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	THat doesn't really look like ich---Ich is distinct, a half-dome like a pimple or whitehead, that then bursts to emit swimmers that head for the sandbed to complete another life cycle. It's actually swollen tissue. What I'm seeing in the pix looks more like a possible bacterial infection, but again---not sure. What some of us are telling you---strengthen the fish and hope for the best---is indeed sometimes effective in a very large tank which can't qt everybody---or where it's something that may not be ich at all, that the fish may be able to throw off...It's the cross your fingers method, but by the otherwise good condition of these fish, you have a chance with it. Get a product called Selcon. It's a food supplement that will supply any deficiency the fish may have gotten into. It will boost general health. Garlic? Some fish love it like candy. Some don't. In any case, it's not a cure for anything except a poor appetite, granted the species likes it: and if the fish aren't eating well, that could help. I used it once on a rabbit: just got fresh garlic from the store and mashed it up. Stinky, but the fish thought it was candy. I'd say leave everything as it is, except bring your water to match the parameters of a healthy reef given in my signature line...and feed with Selcon. If it improves, great! If it doesn't get worse, great! If it gets worse, then pull to quarantine. Two further points: yes, you can have a marine fish tank that runs like a goldfish bowl, lot of water changes, no sand, and strong filtration and aeration. It'll work. But it's not the best sort of environment for your fish, who'll like to prowl and hunt and someday have a coral to live in. And if you should be down to no-fish and have a heavily ich-infested tank, what should you do with it? Easiest thing is to turn it into a coral reef with crabs and snails. And leave it that way a few months, like 3-4. THEN reintroduce carefully quarantined fish from a safe source. Ich is not an infection: it's a sand parasite that HAS to have a fish in its reproductive cycle, and if it can't reproduce, it dies out. It's an animal, and not immortal, at all. There's a lovely sticky on the life cycle of this pest up top, and it will help you understand what's going on. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/22/2015, 02:14 PM	#17
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Copper is a poison that kills parasites markedly faster than it kills fish, but it's sort of like dosing your dog or cat with DDT---there's not much effect, but it's not real optimal, and it does a little damage to a fish that's already been wild-caught, bagged, dumped through a distribution system, airshipped, plunked into a small public tank, bought, and plunked into a home tank with no care as to whether he has had anything to eat for the last two weeks. Then he gets the copper treatment, which is, like DDT, a poison, the level of which goes up and down by the hour if there's no ATO (autotopoff) on the qt---and it puts fish off their appetite for the duration of the treatment. Some species tolerate copper. Others, notably angels, are more sensitive to it. Frankly, I don't use it. Tank transfer is easy, non-poisonous, effective because of the lifecycle of the parasite. There's one other reason not to use it: copper is incompatible with treatment for bacterial infections. So if you've used it, you first have to purify the system of copper before dosing the antibiotic that's actually needed for what the fish has, and your fish, weakened by the copper, and with his healthy slime coat blitzed by it, dies during the process. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

03/21/2015, 08:00 PM	#3
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	I followed for 8 weeks already is that not enough?

03/21/2015, 08:01 PM	#4
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	Do white specks automatically mean ick? Cuz it kind of looks like some sand or fuzzy white thing

03/22/2015, 02:05 AM	#7
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	The clownfish is not rubbing and I don't think he's flashing, they both normally go after the frozen food but they are hesitant. At least one is. Acting normal though.

03/22/2015, 03:10 AM	#9
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	So no way I can run a bare bottom tank without any live rock or sand. Only fish. With a protein skimmer and a big filter with refugium. Basically a really big qt tank as my display tank. Then once ick shows up I can dose it accordingly whenever I wan too. Please tell me a way I can do this if I can the way I'm thinking. I can't go another 2-3 months of looking at nothing but water. How do I make this work??

03/22/2015, 08:20 AM	#10
Mythicalelf Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: USA Posts: 315	Where are your fish right now?Did you take them back to the store? If not look at them in the QT. Also go stare at your DT you will see things. I was staring at mine last night and there was a larger pod running around. BTW my tank is cycled but I haven't added anything yet cause they still are in QT.

03/22/2015, 08:38 AM	#12
Art13 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: South Jersey Posts: 1,444	when i had ich break out in my main tank, i set up a quarantine with a small powerhead, cheap light, and a canister filter filled with matrix bio media that was already seeded. I sat them in that tank for 3 months, treated with cupramine copper for i think a total of 1-2 months and then did a large water change and ran carbon in the canister to pull out the remaining copper and watched them for a month. i then put them back in the display after the 3 months and that was about a year ago. Still no ich. The time varies by source for how long to keep the tank fallow so i went with the greatest number i could find, better safe then sorry. Same with the treatment.

03/22/2015, 12:14 PM	#13
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	My fish are still in my main tank, did yall see my picture I posted? How do I know for sure it is ick? So how long do I really need to wait if I do this? I waited 8 weeks and I cant believe I screwed this up. 72 days? 3 months? That's such a long time so I would qt my clowns the whole 72 days or whatever but treat with copper for about 1-2 months out of it and after 2 months watch them see how they are doing by themselves? Is It bad to leave them in copper the whole time? Or should I use cupramine for 2 weeks, wait a week, another 2 weeks and let them sit with out copper for 2-3 weeks until my tank is ready in 72 days....? What is the best way to qt? How long? I want to make sure I qt right

03/22/2015, 12:54 PM	#16
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	People are saying to only do copper if you see something wrong? I'm trying to make sure the fish is healthy before going in to the main tank. Is it okay to qt and use copper on every incoming fish?

03/22/2015, 04:46 PM	#18
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	What is tank transfer? What is the proper way to qt? How does leaving a fish in an empty tank doing anything? So I shouldn't use copper? If so when do I use it, how do i qt better to be successful. How do I fix bacterial infections. Are you saying copper isn't the worst thing they've been through. Honestly I just really worried about ick, whatever will kill ick I want to do. Other stuff I really haven't been through. Just ick. As long as my fish don't have ick and are eating, I'm calling this whole mudslide a successful.

03/23/2015, 06:44 PM	#20
Oakes1523 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Posts: 189	Is there any videos on the procedure to do the tank transfer? That would be really helpful