I'm new! Just set up my first coral reef tank

[Kenpo guy]

So I'm new to this forum and we just set up our first reef tank but I'm certainly not new to the hobby. My wife and I have been fish hobbyists for almost 20 years. We've had everything from freshwater community tanks, several African and Central American Cichlid tanks, one saltwater (fish only, no corals) and even a neon tank that we recently set up for our daughter. So why the reef now? Well about 10 years ago we had a baby and built a new house and quickly discovered we didn't have the time to comitt to keeping our tanks healthy. So we tore everything down and gave it all away including a Jack Dempsey mating pair and two enormous Oscars. Fast forward to about two months ago. We saw a sale on a 55 gallon combo and decided to set up an African Cichlid tank at the Martial Arts school we now own. Thats all it took. We were hooked once again! We have four tanks running now. The newest is the reef we just set up. After much thought we decided to go with a nano reef so we purchased a 37 gal colomn combo standard aquarium. No overflow and no sump holes in the bottom. Now we know that the sump is lower maintenance but the stand is small so not much room and cost was a factor also. We considered the biocube orriginally but couldnt find anyone that had one and kept it stock. So we figured whats the point and just jumped in with a standard tank. So here is our set up and my questions...
We went with live sand and dry rock initially no live rock. Mechanical filtration is an Aquatop CF 400 canister with UV sterilization which is off right now due to new tank cycle. I removed the bio balls and used ceramic rings instead. SG when I filled it was 1.026 but fell a bit the next day to 1.022. Probably because my hydrometer was new and the neddle wasn't seasoned yet. After a couple days we opted to put one piece of live rock in. Well it came with some cool hitch hikers, two emerald crabs and six small herrmits that were hidding in the rock. The store also threw in a snail for us. All was well until I spotted two small Aiptasia anemones on the rock. We decided to take it back because of the Aiptasia. The day we took the rock out we noticed one of the emeralds died. The larger one was dead when we got home later after returning the rock. The snail and one hermit has died since. This is a new tank so no amonia at the time of death, no significant trace of NO2 or NO3 and water temperature remains solid at 78. The SG has gone up with evaporation to about 1.024. Any ideas why things are dying already? Sorry for the long post but I'm new and wanted to introduce myself and also notate our experience level to the experts here.

[Jim.mer]

I read 5 things in there that I didn't like, No Sump, UV Sterilizer, Not enough money, Bio balls, ceramics. I know you are new to this Great Hobby. O sorry welcome to a Great Forum. You've got to read up on Cycling a Tank, Give it some time, There's no rush. Did you buy the Live Sand? read up on Live Sand and Dry Rock, All will be okay, Just take the time to research your Cycling, Purchases, Good Luck and have Fun.

[TheDeepSandBed]

Did your tank ever actually cycle? Did it have a source of ammonia? How were you measuring your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrAte levels? In a proper cycle you will see a spike in ammonia, followed by a decline in ammonia and a corresponding rise in nitrite, and finally a decline in nitrite and a corresponding rise in nitrAte.

Also, wild salinity swings like that will stress out animals and could lead to death in some cases. I would ditch the swing arm and get a digital refractometer if you intend to keep corals. Stability is the name of the game and that swing arm is wildly inaccurate.

[Jim.mer]

I knew I missed something, Hydrometer, Apstatia, The guy threw a snail in, Hitch Hikers. You're gonna spend a lot of money on this hobby until you get it right. It's ok we all had to learn the hard way, I did, Get rid of the Hydrometer, very inacurrate, get a Refractometer. Keep the water perameters stable, Invest in a Auto Top Off, Get a RO/DI unit with a TDS meter. Read up on Sumps, Skimmers, Water Volume, Flow, Quarantine tanks, Snails vs Hermits. Don't get discouraged and there are no Dumb newbie questions, Ask away that's how you'll learn, be patient and don't take advice personel. And enjoy.

[gone fishin]

What did you use to start your cycle?

I don't know why you took the rock back, I would of just got rid of the aiptasia.

Hard to say why the inverts died. Like you said it is a new tank. could have been ammonia, salinity fluctuations, temp fluctuations, I didn't see anything about RO/DI so could have been something in the tap water.

FWIW I would look into a refractometer instead of a hydrometer. Just my 2 cents, good luck.

[itzonlithai]

I don't think a digital refractometer is necessary, but at the very least a regular one for $30-40 along with some calibration fluid will go a long way. I wouldn't trust a swing arm hydrometer.

Salinity swings and the shock of a new tank probably killed your snails. You're going to need to top off with fresh water daily to keep your salinity from changing too much. If you're evaporating enough water in a day to change your salinity that much, I'd suggest getting an ATO system.

Also, are you using RODI water?

[Kenpo guy]

Jim
Thanks! I opted against bio balls and took them out. They tend to be a nitrate factory so i removed them from the system. I know sump is better but we did a lot of research and with the size tank we have we are trying the canister and will be adding a skimmer shortly. If this doesnt work then we will have to build a sump system. I believe if I keep up with it everything will be fine. I really think the cansiter is more work because of cleaning requirements but it also saved space and money.

Deepsandbed
the tank is now one week into the cycle. We added the live rock to help with the cycle and picked up the hitch hikers I mentioned. At the time of death there were no issues with water because the cycle had just started. The idea was that Amonia would be introduced by way of the crabs instead of stressing out fish durring the cycle. Nothing else has died since. Also the rock and crabs were introduced after set up. I dont think salinity dropped. I was using a new hydrometer that wasnt seasoned so thats probably where it really was when I filled the tank. Yes we do plan on picking up a refractometer before adding any corals or fish. Great recomendation btw. The cycle is in the middle Id say. I left one of the dead emerald crabs in the water for a few days so the hermits could feed on It which they did and to introduce more amonia to the cycle. At one week my nitrites are at about 1 to 1.5 ppm and nitrate is about 25 ppm higher than id like but about whatd I'd expect at this stage in the game. Never had a huge amonia spike even with the emerald crab i left in. Maybe because of the live sand. Idk live bacteria has always helped my freshwater tanks cycle fasfer.

[CStrickland]

did you test the ammonia, or are you just assuming that there isn't any?
"This is a new tank so no amonia at the time of death," kinda sounds like you overlooked the possibility that organisms in the liverock can die off in transport and raise ammo enough to kill a crab, which would further raise ammo. Like a snowball effect.

Now is a good time to learn about the different tests, what they tell you (and don't tell you) about your tank, and how to use them. It's a big learning curve. In time you'll develop an eye for things, and won't need to test as much. Good Luck!

I don't think salinity is so hard on crabs and snails as inverts. At least the tidal species. Ammonia is not good for anybody though.

[TheDeepSandBed]

In the future I would keep all fish and inverts out of a tank until fully cycled. It's just cruel to sacrifice them like that. You can add other sources of ammonia to get a cycle going without a living creature. Some people buy straight ammonia and dose that, others throw a cocktail shrimp in the tank.

[Kenpo guy]

I should have mentioned that we used tap water. I used a dechlorinater and a metal neutralizer and figured the activated carbon would take care of the rest. At the very least I think we should have used bottled watter. Ive been regretting that decision. I knew better, just got caught up in the excitement and wanted to get the tank started.

[Kenpo guy]

I tested amonia with a test kit we purchased. It has since gone up but never a big spike like we expected with the live rock. The live rock was in the tank for one day only. Hope this helps a bit. Thanks for all the great input!

[webslinger]

I wouldn't even think of setting up a tank without rodi water. Your just going to have a lot of issues and get frustrated. Go get a cheap rodi uinit.

[gone fishin]

FWIW I don't think you will get much of a cycle with one emerald crab.

[Kenpo guy]

Thanks to everyone for all of the input. Wish I would have found this forum before i jumped back into all of this. A lot of knowledge here so I will listen carefully. Like I said I'm not new to aquariums but a reef tank is something we've never done so I'm a newbie again.

[gone fishin]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

This link is in the new to the hobby forum. It is really a book full of useful info and topics. Thought it may be of some use to you guys. If nothing else a good refresher. Good luck

[Kenpo guy]

I just got back from our local pet store where I purchased everything for my reef. I took in a water sample to confirm my readings from my tests. Everything matched my results exactly. What their saltwater expert told me was that we basically skipped the Ammonia part of our cycle because of the live sand, i.e. bacteria in the sand started breaking it down right away. No2 and NO3 are a little high to add anything to the tank but they're not high enough to be overly concerned. There is a small trace of ammonia but again not high enough for concern. Looks like we are halfway through our cycle. Once the ammonia drops to zero and Nitrates come down we can start to add some things to the tank. One thing I believe we should start looking at right away is a protein skimmer. We're using a canister instead of a sump and canisters tend to be a nitrate factory so would a skimmer help with our system and ad some stability? I really want to see if we can make this reef work without a sump for now. I plan on doing it down the road anyway if needed when we make some upgrades to our system. Still don't know why the emeralds died. All the hermits are doing fine.

[CStrickland]

the sump isnt a deal breaker, plenty of people dont have them for all diff reasons.
it would be easier to imagine how your tank is progressing if you post the test numbers instead of saying "small trace" or "a little high" because pet stores are kinda notorious for getting that stuff wrong.

Are the water drops that you are using called "Prime" by any chance? idk about other brands but that one you can dose into the tank to buffer ammonia so it won't keep hurting the stock you have left. By the way, what are they eating?

[Kenpo guy]

I gave the readings above but left out ammonia. Ammonia is just under .25 ppm, NO2 is right at 1ppm now and NO3 is just over 10 ppm which is down a bit from my last test. I would say my chemistry is about where it should be after a week while I'm sure some may disagree. I think the live sand helped a lot. That's the only reason I can think of that I never had a big ammonia spike. So now I guess I start pricing out protein skimmers.

[Kenpo guy]

Oh and one more thing. Definitely buying a refratometer. My hydrometer showed 1.023. My fish store checked with a refractometer and it was actually 1.025. That will be my next investment before the skimmer. That was some really good advice that I'm definitely adhearing to.

[Bill Nye]

My advise would be to slow down. You kind of seem like you are rushing in five different directions. Reef tanks are a labor of love and patience. Nothing good happens fast but plenty of bad stuff can happen really quick if you aren't careful.

I think the saying measure twice cut once should be the motto for every new reefer. Its very exciting getting into saltwater tanks but its a very complex hobby that doesn't always have clear cut paths for success especially if your new. Before you buy anything else I would do tons and tons of research about equipment so that you don't end up buying twice. That makes things even more expensive and frustrating. I have been reefing for more than a decade and it can take me a week of research to decide what test kit to buy let alone lights, pumps, skimmers etc...

Also I wouldn't go by your LFS. They are there to make money off you and often lead newbies astray trying to make a quick buck. People on this forum (especially the old timers) won't lead you wrong purposely since they have nothing to gain.

But most of all have fun! Reefing is the best hobby (might be a little biased...) and it can provide you a life time of enjoyment (ask PaulB!).

Good luck and welcome!

[Kenpo guy]

So much good advise here thank you. We've actually been planning this for a little over two months. We spent most of that time researching what tank and what kind of filtration system we wanted. Watched tons of videos on YouTube looked up every reef site I could find. We finally decided on a tank and a filtration system and purchased that. Then the tank sat in our house empty for a couple weeks while we decided on live rock or dry rock and what kind we wanted. It finally all came together last weekend when we rockscaped the tank and filled it. While two months seemed like a long time at fist I've discovered that many others who have experience with reef tanks spend twice or three times that long to set up their system. So yeah I guess we did rush this a bit. So the skimmer is just something I'm considering as an option but nothing I'm running out and buying this weekend. I'm very curious what the thoughts are here about skimmers. We have no plans of adding fish until the tank has cycled for about a month. I may add more to my cleanup crew if water conditions allow before that. Corals are not even an option for us until we are keeping everything else alive. My plans are for SPS and soft corals only. I will need a light upgrade and probably a sump for LPS and stoney corals. So much knowledge here so I'm glad to be a part of it. I will definitely take this slow and steady. All I can do until my water stabilizes. Looking forward to getting some pics up eventually.

[chefbill]

Many SPS and softies don't get along, something about the toxins the softies release. And skimmers, while they can and do get very expensive, don't need to be. A decent skimmer like a Reef Octopus Classic 90 HOB is less than $200, and is oversized for your tank, meaning it is more useful if you ever upgrade (which it sounds like you'll do, eventually).

And once your cycle is complete, you'll rarely if ever test for 'trites (and if like me, ammonia only if there is a problem), refractometer and 'trate test are next priorities.

You have a long way to go before livestock, or you simply haven't mentioned some things. What is and what will be you WC schedule? Does tank have a lid/cover? Heater? ATO? Have you looked into HOB refugiums (something to research while cycling)? The biggy--lights?

And no one mentioned anything, but why would you run a UV sterilizer?

Also, you have several more expenses to take care of that you may not have given much thought to: salt, supply of RODI (or filters/resin for your own system), mag-float or such, glass scraper, fish/coral/invert food, additional power heads, dosing suppliments(down the road, obviously), net, fragging tools, plugs, super glue and 2 part epoxy, charcoal, floss, purigen/phosban etc, more test kits, buckets and or barrels to make and mix water, timers for your lights, power strips/GFIs etc, turkey baster, flashlight, hoses, tubing, paper towels. The list goes on.

I love the hobby (is owning a dog a hobby?), and want you to succeed. I'm not trying to scare you away, just helping to make you aware. You may not need it all, or all at once, and most of the list isn't too expensive, just piece it together slowly.

HTH and GL.

[Jim.mer]

You don't need a skimmer for a 37, You could do water changes religiously, ( Important) But first you've gotta finish that cycle. Invest in a good RO/DI unit with a TDS meter. Water quality is the most important factor and you can achieve it. You don't need a sump, What kind of lights are you using? What type of Fish and Coral do you plan on keeping and look for a Reef store in your area. The guys at the Reef store will be able to help you immensely. Those guys are hobbiests just like us and don't worry about spending money. Just pick there brain make a friend and keep smiling

[Bill Nye]

Originally Posted by Jim.mer

You don't need a skimmer for a 37, You could do water changes religiously, ( Important) But first you've gotta finish that cycle. Invest in a good RO/DI unit with a TDS meter. Water quality is the most important factor and you can achieve it. You don't need a sump, What kind of lights are you using? What type of Fish and Coral do you plan on keeping and look for a Reef store in your area. The guys at the Reef store will be able to help you immensely. Those guys are hobbyists just like us and don't worry about spending money. Just pick there brain make a friend and keep smiling

Maybe its just this area but I find most LFS are not very knowledgeable, at least not at the level most serious reefers are on the forums. Many have basic knowledge about husbandry and equipment (usually only the stuff they sell).

I usually will ask some basic questions to get an understanding of their knowledge level when I go to a new LFS and I am typically very disappointed. I consider myself to be an "intermediate" reefer and half the time I am correcting them on many basic points.

I talked to a guy recently who does most of the in store maintenance at the "nicest" LFS in my state and he said you want to aim to keep phosphates below 2 for sps which is about 100x higher than what most people aim for .....

[sfoister]

I read this whole thread and nothing irritated me more than your LFS telling you that you skipped the cycle because of your live sand. Good lord.... are they telling you this so you'll buy fish sooner?

My bet on why your crabs and snail died is no acclimation. They were hitch hikers and no one acclimates rock. Now that you know what happens when you don't acclimate you don't have to make that expensive mistake with a fish.

Honestly, the best thing for you to do right now is to take all the knowledge you have been given here, now close this window and let your tank sit for a month or so without adding anything alive to it. Sllllooooowwwwww dowwwwwwn....

Instant gratification just costs money and life.