Advice on current cycle

Abstract3000 · 06/25/2015, 03:43 AM

Ok so in no way new to Saltwater just a bit new to the way in which I am cycling a tank right now and looking for a bit of advice.

first I had a 12G for 4 1/2 years but after getting infested with Dinos I setup a 10G filled with water from the 12 and moved just the Live Rock/Fish & Corals. I disposed of the sandbed and saw this as a good time to upgrade.

I got the JBJ 30RL and have it set up as of now, I used about 10lbs of CaribSea Ocean Direct Live Sand, & filled with Red Sea Coral Pro Salt Mix. I have left both the media baskets with the Floss/Carbon/Ceramic Rings in tact for beneficial bacteria to grow on and lastly I grabbed a piece of live rock from my LFS's tank heavily coated in Coraline and tossed that in as well.

I started by trying to kick off the cycle over a week ago by adding pure ammonia but something tells me it is very watered down as it took nearly 30mL (Over a matter of a few days) to bring the Ammonia levels to 1ppm. It has been holding steady at 1ppm for a few days with no shift, no Nitrites, and no Nitrates......

My ultimate plan is when the tank is finished cycling I am going to add the current live rock I have in the 10G (covered in corals so can’t do it now) and remove the media baskets to replace with a Skimmer & Floss Holder and Cheato, also a Dual Reactor will be in place as well.

The tank being much larger I would like to add some more live rock from the LFS tank as well but not sure when to do this, figured I would after the cycle in effort to preserve the beneficial hitchhikers instead of losing them to toxic conditions. So just curious what should I make of this ammonia holding constant? Is it possible there’s enough bacteria from that sand and the small Live Rock I added that’s holding that parm? Or should I double up with another 30mL of Ammonia to bring it to 2ppm? (actually I think it's 4X if I remember correctly) or just wait it out till I see the ammonia drop below 1ppm and get a Nitrite reading to ensure I'm on my way? What do you guys think?

xdestry · 06/25/2015, 03:51 AM

How much live rock do you have in there now? How long has it been since the ammonia has been present? I am sure if you just wait it out eventually the ammonia will drop.

Abstract3000 · 06/25/2015, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xdestry

How much live rock do you have in there now? How long has it been since the ammonia has been present? I am sure if you just wait it out eventually the ammonia will drop.

Just a small piece maybe 2lbs?

The Ammonia has been present for a week now, 1 day shy of the full 1ppm as I added those 30mL over a 3 day period shocked with the total amount it took to get it there I was expecting to add a lot less to get it in the 2ppm range but at that amount I didn't want to keep dumping more in if that makes sense.

scooter31707 · 06/25/2015, 05:46 AM

I am thinking that you don't have enough bacteria to eat up the ammonia.

Azedenkae · 06/25/2015, 06:22 AM

I agree, it may be that there is not enough bacteria present to quickly enough convert ammonia into nitrites and stuff.

[EDIT]

To be more precise, 'not enough space for bacteria to grow to numbers that can quickly convert ammonia into nitrite'.

Abstract3000 · 06/25/2015, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azedenkae

I agree, it may be that there is not enough bacteria present to quickly enough convert ammonia into nitrites and stuff.

[EDIT]

To be more precise, 'not enough space for bacteria to grow to numbers that can quickly convert ammonia into nitrite'.

Ok, I'm listening. Should I just continue to wait it out? Or add some rock to the tank?

scooter31707 · 06/25/2015, 06:53 AM

The rock that you have in the 10 gallon, does it look ok? meaning does it look like it has any signs of Dinos or anything else, pest wise? I would stick the live rock(only) into the cycling tank.

scooter31707 · 06/25/2015, 06:55 AM

Sorry, I realized that rock has coral on it. You may think about using some Seacheam Stability or Biospira to get some bacteria in there.

Abstract3000 · 06/25/2015, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooter31707

Sorry, I realized that rock has coral on it. You may think about using some Seacheam Stability or Biospira to get some bacteria in there.

I guess I'm confused with that in the sense if I don't have enough surface for the bacteria to adhere to, where would the liquid bacteria I introduce go? I'm patient when it comes to my reef tanks, I don't mind waiting at all, I'm just finding it rather strange it's still sitting at 1 and doing nothing else and was hoping I didn't do anything wrong to begin with.

Abstract3000 · 06/25/2015, 07:04 AM

Also As I mentioned before I intend to purchase more LR from the LFS, should I just go ahead and do that and add it to the tank? This LR would not have corals like the rock I have had established for 4 1/2 years

Dkuhlmann · 06/25/2015, 07:12 AM

Yes add 15lbs or so fresh lr from the lfs to your new tank. Then add more ammonia to bring to 2ppm then ghost feed daily as if you have fish in it. Once your ammonia is 0 bring your ammonia back to 2ppm again and see if it is processed in a 24 hour period back to 0. Once this happens you can put your lr from the old tank into the new one and transfer your fish and corals, depending on how many fish you have

Abstract3000 · 06/25/2015, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dkuhlmann

Yes add 15lbs or so fresh lr from the lfs to your new tank. Then add more ammonia to bring to 2ppm then ghost feed daily as if you have fish in it. Once your ammonia is 0 bring your ammonia back to 2ppm again and see if it is processed in a 24 hour period back to 0. Once this happens you can put your lr from the old tank into the new one and transfer your fish and corals, depending on how many fish you have

Thanks, That was what I was going for but I got oddly confused when people were stating it should only be a few drops per gallon to get the Ammonia up, after putting 100 drops in over the course of a day and not even registering 1ppm I got really frustrated let it sit over night and then started adding via 10 mL syringe, I figured at about 30mL in a 30 Gallon was overdoing it but wasnt sure if the $1.00 bottle of ammonia I bought was 99% water lol.

So I guess I'll keep adding after i put in some more LR but does it not sound strange to you It took that much to read the 1ppm? I would try something besides API's kit but I don't believe salifert's as all inclusive as API which is both 3 & 4

Dkuhlmann · 06/25/2015, 09:06 AM

Do the ammonia addition all at one time. Now you have an idea of how much it takes to get to 1ppm but since you did it over an extended period of time maybe do that all at once and see where you are. Even if you screw up and hit 5ppm you are fine.

Just remember to ghost feed daily as if you had the load of fish you intend on getting every day. IF that is 2 pinches of pellets do that. If it's one cube of mysis do that. Very important to get the bacteria up to what you intend on in the end. Of course you can do it to a lesser degree say feeding a pair of clowns needs per day. Once they are in the tank you can over feed them a bit to get that bacteria load enough to handle the next two fish etc. The fish and left over food will be enough production of ammonia on their own to continue to feed that bacteria so it can handle the bioload your tank inhabitants produce.

Dkuhlmann · 06/25/2015, 09:07 AM

Use the ammonia and nitrite/nitrate kits you have for now, not as important during the cycle as they are later when they need to count. So you can buy the better test kits later after these are used up or until you add your fish, cuc etc.

Abstract3000 · 06/25/2015, 09:20 AM

Cool Thanks for the tip! In the past I typically just dump a bunch of established live rock into the tank and wait a couple weeks without any issues, In the 90's it was the use of Damsels and I once used a shrimp, and lets just say the wife won't be having that again! So Given my rocks are covered in corals and coraline I wanted to give the pure ammonia method a shot and this is where I'm at. It appears red sea makes a kit that test for both NH3 & NH4 but Ill consider that down the road with all the other Red Sea tests, and hanna checkers Iv'e spent enough on test kits in the past, I just really hate that the API Color shade for 0 Ammonia is blatantly wrong, the rest of their kits are fine but that one is just off.

Dkuhlmann · 06/25/2015, 10:10 AM

Sounds like you have the right idea. Yep I was an old school reefer too and just recently came back to having a small reef. Going to get a 40b from the Petco $ per gal sale that starts this weekend. 40b to me is the perfect size small reef that shows much bigger than it really is

Abstract3000 · 07/05/2015, 02:28 AM

Alright, So Last week I introduced 18lbs of Live rock into the 30G Tank (Straight from the LFS Sump) I noticed raising the ammonia to 2ppm zeros out in 2-3 Days, just raised it to 2ppm again today. The only problem is I have had absolutely no nitrites so I suspected it was being converted directly to Nitrates and that checks at only 10? No algae blooms or diatoms either.... I have a good feeling within the next week its going to be zeroing out the Ammonia within 24 hours indicating there's enough beneficial bacteria but I'm a little worried about not seeing nitrites or a large spike in nitrates....

ZeeSparrow · 07/05/2015, 04:00 AM

I didn't see nitrites in mine. Just straight to nitrates. I kept adding ammonia and testing but never saw nitrites. Nitrates on the other hand... by the time I was satisfied the cycle was complete, they were up to 40.

Dkuhlmann · 07/05/2015, 04:38 AM

It makes no sense to me not to see nitrites as they are what eats the ammonia and are an integral part of the nitrogen cycle. I'd pickup another or different brand of nitrite kit and see what you get.

Ammonia has to be processed from 2 ppm down to 0 in 24 hours if it isn't then the cycle isn't completed. If you are showing ammonia after 24 hours but reduced number you will have nitrites, you have to.

criticalencore · 07/05/2015, 04:46 AM

I'd say wait it out. With the existing LR you had plus the piece from the LFS I wouldn't have added any ammonia. There was already the bacteria you needed on the rock and the live rock would have cycled the tank faster without the added ammonia I believe.

Abstract3000 · 07/06/2015, 08:16 AM

Alright, So Checked today the Ammonia Levels are back to 0, The Nitrites at 0 and Nitrates are between 20-40, I adjusted the Kessil A360 to brighten it up and quickly realized I had diatoms covering everything. I'm going to suspect my Nitrites test is bad, and my Cycle is pretty much done. I'm going out of town for a few days so a good time to let it sit, when I get back I'll just double check everything; I imagine the Nitrates will go up some more and from there get a huge amount of the water changed and should be good.

06/25/2015, 03:43 AM	#1
Abstract3000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 50	Advice on current cycle Ok so in no way new to Saltwater just a bit new to the way in which I am cycling a tank right now and looking for a bit of advice. first I had a 12G for 4 1/2 years but after getting infested with Dinos I setup a 10G filled with water from the 12 and moved just the Live Rock/Fish & Corals. I disposed of the sandbed and saw this as a good time to upgrade. I got the JBJ 30RL and have it set up as of now, I used about 10lbs of CaribSea Ocean Direct Live Sand, & filled with Red Sea Coral Pro Salt Mix. I have left both the media baskets with the Floss/Carbon/Ceramic Rings in tact for beneficial bacteria to grow on and lastly I grabbed a piece of live rock from my LFS's tank heavily coated in Coraline and tossed that in as well. I started by trying to kick off the cycle over a week ago by adding pure ammonia but something tells me it is very watered down as it took nearly 30mL (Over a matter of a few days) to bring the Ammonia levels to 1ppm. It has been holding steady at 1ppm for a few days with no shift, no Nitrites, and no Nitrates...... My ultimate plan is when the tank is finished cycling I am going to add the current live rock I have in the 10G (covered in corals so can’t do it now) and remove the media baskets to replace with a Skimmer & Floss Holder and Cheato, also a Dual Reactor will be in place as well. The tank being much larger I would like to add some more live rock from the LFS tank as well but not sure when to do this, figured I would after the cycle in effort to preserve the beneficial hitchhikers instead of losing them to toxic conditions. So just curious what should I make of this ammonia holding constant? Is it possible there’s enough bacteria from that sand and the small Live Rock I added that’s holding that parm? Or should I double up with another 30mL of Ammonia to bring it to 2ppm? (actually I think it's 4X if I remember correctly) or just wait it out till I see the ammonia drop below 1ppm and get a Nitrite reading to ensure I'm on my way? What do you guys think?

06/25/2015, 03:51 AM	#2
xdestry SPS Addict Join Date: May 2014 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 662	How much live rock do you have in there now? How long has it been since the ammonia has been present? I am sure if you just wait it out eventually the ammonia will drop. __________________ 100 gallon MIXED / SPS frag dominant Current Tank Info: 100 Gallon + 40G Sump, ATI Sunpower Dimmable 8x39 (B+,C+,B+.Act.B+.P+.Gieseman Super Act, B+), 2x MP40QD, Aquamaxx Q2 + ConeS CO1 Skimmers

06/25/2015, 07:12 AM	#11
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Yes add 15lbs or so fresh lr from the lfs to your new tank. Then add more ammonia to bring to 2ppm then ghost feed daily as if you have fish in it. Once your ammonia is 0 bring your ammonia back to 2ppm again and see if it is processed in a 24 hour period back to 0. Once this happens you can put your lr from the old tank into the new one and transfer your fish and corals, depending on how many fish you have __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

06/25/2015, 09:06 AM	#13
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Do the ammonia addition all at one time. Now you have an idea of how much it takes to get to 1ppm but since you did it over an extended period of time maybe do that all at once and see where you are. Even if you screw up and hit 5ppm you are fine. Just remember to ghost feed daily as if you had the load of fish you intend on getting every day. IF that is 2 pinches of pellets do that. If it's one cube of mysis do that. Very important to get the bacteria up to what you intend on in the end. Of course you can do it to a lesser degree say feeding a pair of clowns needs per day. Once they are in the tank you can over feed them a bit to get that bacteria load enough to handle the next two fish etc. The fish and left over food will be enough production of ammonia on their own to continue to feed that bacteria so it can handle the bioload your tank inhabitants produce. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

06/25/2015, 09:07 AM	#14
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Use the ammonia and nitrite/nitrate kits you have for now, not as important during the cycle as they are later when they need to count. So you can buy the better test kits later after these are used up or until you add your fish, cuc etc. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

06/25/2015, 05:46 AM	#4
scooter31707 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 4,971	I am thinking that you don't have enough bacteria to eat up the ammonia.

06/25/2015, 06:22 AM	#5
Azedenkae Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,196	I agree, it may be that there is not enough bacteria present to quickly enough convert ammonia into nitrites and stuff. [EDIT] To be more precise, 'not enough space for bacteria to grow to numbers that can quickly convert ammonia into nitrite'.

06/25/2015, 06:53 AM	#7
scooter31707 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 4,971	The rock that you have in the 10 gallon, does it look ok? meaning does it look like it has any signs of Dinos or anything else, pest wise? I would stick the live rock(only) into the cycling tank.

06/25/2015, 06:55 AM	#8
scooter31707 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 4,971	Sorry, I realized that rock has coral on it. You may think about using some Seacheam Stability or Biospira to get some bacteria in there.

06/25/2015, 07:04 AM	#10
Abstract3000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 50	Also As I mentioned before I intend to purchase more LR from the LFS, should I just go ahead and do that and add it to the tank? This LR would not have corals like the rock I have had established for 4 1/2 years

06/25/2015, 09:20 AM	#15
Abstract3000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 50	Cool Thanks for the tip! In the past I typically just dump a bunch of established live rock into the tank and wait a couple weeks without any issues, In the 90's it was the use of Damsels and I once used a shrimp, and lets just say the wife won't be having that again! So Given my rocks are covered in corals and coraline I wanted to give the pure ammonia method a shot and this is where I'm at. It appears red sea makes a kit that test for both NH3 & NH4 but Ill consider that down the road with all the other Red Sea tests, and hanna checkers Iv'e spent enough on test kits in the past, I just really hate that the API Color shade for 0 Ammonia is blatantly wrong, the rest of their kits are fine but that one is just off.

06/25/2015, 10:10 AM	#16
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Sounds like you have the right idea. Yep I was an old school reefer too and just recently came back to having a small reef. Going to get a 40b from the Petco $ per gal sale that starts this weekend. 40b to me is the perfect size small reef that shows much bigger than it really is __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

07/05/2015, 02:28 AM	#17
Abstract3000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 50	Alright, So Last week I introduced 18lbs of Live rock into the 30G Tank (Straight from the LFS Sump) I noticed raising the ammonia to 2ppm zeros out in 2-3 Days, just raised it to 2ppm again today. The only problem is I have had absolutely no nitrites so I suspected it was being converted directly to Nitrates and that checks at only 10? No algae blooms or diatoms either.... I have a good feeling within the next week its going to be zeroing out the Ammonia within 24 hours indicating there's enough beneficial bacteria but I'm a little worried about not seeing nitrites or a large spike in nitrates....

07/05/2015, 04:00 AM	#18
ZeeSparrow Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Spokane Valley, WA Posts: 788	I didn't see nitrites in mine. Just straight to nitrates. I kept adding ammonia and testing but never saw nitrites. Nitrates on the other hand... by the time I was satisfied the cycle was complete, they were up to 40. __________________ Build thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2499447 Current Tank Info: 75G w/29G sump, Reefbreeders Photon 48, RO Classic 110-INT, Jebao DCT-8000, 2xJebao RW-8, 2xEheim Jager 150W heaters, Tunze Osmolator ATO, TLF GFO

07/05/2015, 04:38 AM	#19
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	It makes no sense to me not to see nitrites as they are what eats the ammonia and are an integral part of the nitrogen cycle. I'd pickup another or different brand of nitrite kit and see what you get. Ammonia has to be processed from 2 ppm down to 0 in 24 hours if it isn't then the cycle isn't completed. If you are showing ammonia after 24 hours but reduced number you will have nitrites, you have to. __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

07/05/2015, 04:46 AM	#20
criticalencore Registered Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 381	I'd say wait it out. With the existing LR you had plus the piece from the LFS I wouldn't have added any ammonia. There was already the bacteria you needed on the rock and the live rock would have cycled the tank faster without the added ammonia I believe.

07/06/2015, 08:16 AM	#21
Abstract3000 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 50	Alright, So Checked today the Ammonia Levels are back to 0, The Nitrites at 0 and Nitrates are between 20-40, I adjusted the Kessil A360 to brighten it up and quickly realized I had diatoms covering everything. I'm going to suspect my Nitrites test is bad, and my Cycle is pretty much done. I'm going out of town for a few days so a good time to let it sit, when I get back I'll just double check everything; I imagine the Nitrates will go up some more and from there get a huge amount of the water changed and should be good.