Did not know about cycle until i got fishes

Takokok · 07/08/2015, 01:30 AM

So hey guys so i just discovered that i need to do a nitrogen cycle on my 40g salt water aquarium, i know that i was stupid to buy a fish right away,,, but hey im a beginner, so yeah i bought a pair of yellow tail damsels, 2 perc clown fish, 2 fire goby, 5 snails and 1 cleaner shrimp, im at my 8th day now, i have 2 large live rock about 7 pounds each, and sand corals, im just scared to lose all my fishes and cleaning crew, i mean damsels yeah they can go because they're aggressive. But not my nemo and firefish and cleaners. what should i do ? i saw a lot of thread that it is possible to do a cycle with fishes on them, but i dont know about having snails and a cleaner shrimp, im afraid that they might die from ammonia or nitrate ,nitrite. they're doing good though, eating normally

afrayler · 07/08/2015, 01:43 AM

How many days has it been? I'm surprised your LFS didn't give you advice or ask about your tank set up first. Just quickly off the top of my head I would think you need go juice to get bacteria in there to break everything down faster. I usually go an ounce per 10 gallons. I'm not sure if possible or not but if you could get the more important fish out (everything buy damsels) and let the store hold them or give you store credit it would let the bacteria work more efficiently while letting your tank cycle longer. The key in my experience with fish tanks is patience and knowing what your putting into the tank. I'm still no where near being an expert but I try and ask as much as I can before I do anything regarding my tanks.

Takokok · 07/08/2015, 01:58 AM

i guess the local fish store thought that i already have a normal functioning tank already because i was asking a lot of questions. my tank is going in 9 days now, i already added 20ml of bacteria food earlier, i'll try returning them for store credit, i hope i still get something

Isaacs55 · 07/08/2015, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afrayler

How many days has it been? I'm surprised your LFS didn't give you advice or ask about your tank set up first. Just quickly off the top of my head I would think you need go juice to get bacteria in there to break everything down faster. I usually go an ounce per 10 gallons. I'm not sure if possible or not but if you could get the more important fish out (everything buy damsels) and let the store hold them or give you store credit it would let the bacteria work more efficiently while letting your tank cycle longer. The key in my experience with fish tanks is patience and knowing what your putting into the tank. I'm still no where near being an expert but I try and ask as much as I can before I do anything regarding my tanks.

You would think that any LFS would do the right thing by telling you to do a nitrogen cycle and not SELL you something if you haven't cycled....what he needs to do is yes take everything back if he can...most likely not the case since his LFS is a doucher...if they won't take them back you need to do daily water changes or
1. As soon as you see Amonia in the tank do a water change....
2. Go buy a large bottle of bio Spira and add it to your tank
3. Go buy seachem Stability and dose accordingly as directed by the label.
4. Go buy seachem prime...
5. Test, test, and test your Amonia and Nitrite as much as you can
6. If you see Amonia or nitrites in your tank add Seachem prime to your tank immediately! Then do a water change...
7. After any water changes...Add Prime to your tank.
8. Keep doing this everyday until your take is finished cycling.

When your tank is finished cycling you should get some type of diatom bloom...although not everyone gets a diatom bloom after there cycle...it's just a sign that your headed in the right direction.

Nitrogen Cycle:
You have to get an Amonia and nitrite spike of at least 2ppm and have them go back down to zero with nitrates probably high around 20+ since you have fish in there already...

Bio Spira:
The bio Spira will help Jumpstart your cycle and speed up the growth of nitrifying bacteria that your tank needs in order to handle the fish that you put in.
So please take my advice only if your local fish store won't take the fish back...I'm sure other people will chime in also.
Hope this helps ...

Isaacs55 · 07/08/2015, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takokok

i guess the local fish store thought that i already have a normal functioning tank already because i was asking a lot of questions. my tank is going in 9 days now, i already added 20ml of bacteria food earlier, i'll try returning them for store credit, i hope i still get something

Have you tested your water to see where you are at with your cycle since you are on day 9?

If not please test for Amonia, nitrite and nitrates. ..then post them here so we can further diagnose where you are on your cycle.
Thanks
Isaac

criticalencore · 07/08/2015, 03:21 AM

A bacteria additive like brightwell mb7 says you can add fish on day 1 If you dose as per the directions. Seems a bit scary but I've seen it done. Was the rock you added to the tank "live" or was it dead dry rock? If it was out of a running system there may be enough bacteria on it to support your system. Is there brown dot looking algae everywhere? If not there may be enough bacteria to get you going. How do the fish look?

Marchillo · 07/08/2015, 04:39 AM

Even if the lfs didn't know he was cycled yet after wanting to buy all those fish he should have asked a question like "wow that is a lot of fish at once, what sized tank do you have". Etc etc. If he won't take them back Id fine a new lfs and make it a point to tell him he lost a lot of business from you by not being more proactive with questions.

kmbyrnes · 07/08/2015, 06:17 AM

You need a new LFS regardless

homer1475 · 07/08/2015, 06:38 AM

Seachem stability dosed per instructions and everything should be ok. I do say "should be" but without a cycled tank, anything is a crapshoot at this point.

Seachem prime will help with any ammonia spike if your LFS won't take the fish back. With that large of a bioload, your more then likely to loose something if not all of your livestock.

A seachem ammonia badge will help for knowing when you have any ammonia present, and when to add some prime to combat that ammonia. Nitrites and nitrates aren't as harmful for your livestock, but can also adversely affect them.

gone fishin · 07/08/2015, 09:05 AM

Personally I would pull everything alive out of the tank and return it. The fish you have are common fish and will not be hard to replace after your cycled. 14 pounds of rock in a 40g is a bit on the low side for biological filtration.

I would suggest doing some more reading while your tank is cycling. like the link.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

assuming all the fish made it through the cycle. The 2 fire fish will become 1 eventually. There will most likely be aggression between the damsels and the clowns in a small tank. Use this link before you buy any fish.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2068112

Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck.

kenpau · 07/08/2015, 09:29 AM

yeah......the LFS shouldn't really have sold you the fish, having said that, it isn't their responsibility to ask every customer what stage their tank is at or what size it is or what livestock you have before each purchase. As reef keepers we are responsible for doing the best we can for the livestock we're purchasing.
Unfortunately in this case I have to say that you're very unprepared, I'm not trying to have a go but the nitrogen cycle is the very first thing you should be learning before you even put water in the tank, I hope it all works out for the best because I'd hate to see those fish/inverts die because of being introduced too early.
You'll learn very quickly in this hobby that rushing anything will more than likely end in disaster, the amazing reefs you see on here took years to build up, but that time spent, research and attention to detail is what makes them so amazing.
Welcome to the hobby, you'll be fine, but I would say get researching everything from nitrogen cycles, to fish compatibility and coral requirements, theres a lot to learn but take it slow and you'll be fine.

Takokok · 07/08/2015, 02:47 PM

YEAH I checked already and the nitrates,nitrites were a lil bit high not dangerous yet, the ammonia is the prob i need to get a tester first, i bought the 5 test stick, and ammonia wasnt there, there are some algae on my rock, i believe those algae came from the LFS, also i have a live rock, is it ok to put another live rock? and also is it ok to turn on my wave maker? its only 500

Sk8r · 07/08/2015, 03:11 PM

Your other course of action is to set up an uncycled qt, which you need anyway, put all livestock into it, keep it from cycling by frequent media changes, and just let the tank prepare itself via a regular cycle.

ericarenee · 07/08/2015, 03:22 PM

as others have said i would at the Busiest time take the fish back to the lfs and DEMAND THEY CREDIT YOU . I know here the lfs always ask people they do not know about there tank and even refuse to sell them that many fish at once and would def advise against that combination... The store did you wrong. to me its like a mechanic telling you your car needs a 50.00 part when its only a .50 cent fuse....
We as fish keepers have a responsibly to know what is right and wrong. but they people selling has a responsibility be sure they sell to responsible and capable people

kenpau · 07/08/2015, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericarenee

as others have said i would at the Busiest time take the fish back to the lfs and DEMAND THEY CREDIT YOU . I know here the lfs always ask people they do not know about there tank and even refuse to sell them that many fish at once and would def advise against that combination... The store did you wrong. to me its like a mechanic telling you your car needs a 50.00 part when its only a .50 cent fuse....
We as fish keepers have a responsibly to know what is right and wrong. but they people selling has a responsibility be sure they sell to responsible and capable people

In a perfect world this would be the case, however I know that in the biggest LFS in my area they probably have about 25 staff all up. It is impossible for every staff member to remember every person that comes through the door. It is a busy store so to start questioning every customer and then offering subsequent advice would be very time consuming for everyone involved. I agree it would be great if that was the case, unfortunately business relies on serving as many customers as possible. For this reasons they have signs up everywhere saying to consider your purchases carefully and know the requirements of the fish you are choosing.
If it was a 5 year old asking to buy a clownfish then of course they would ask questions, but we are all grown adults and have to take responsibility for our own actions instead of blaming the LFS for our lack of research and poor judgement.

ericarenee · 07/08/2015, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kenpau

In a perfect world this would be the case, however I know that in the biggest LFS in my area they probably have about 25 staff all up. It is impossible for every staff member to remember every person that comes through the door. It is a busy store so to start questioning every customer and then offering subsequent advice would be very time consuming for everyone involved. I agree it would be great if that was the case, unfortunately business relies on serving as many customers as possible. For this reasons they have signs up everywhere saying to consider your purchases carefully and know the requirements of the fish you are choosing.

I see you're point but still they should have trained people only in marine sales .guess things will slip through .I sometimes get carried away with mistakes like this that should have safe guards in place to prevent.

kenpau · 07/08/2015, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericarenee

I see you're point but still they should have trained people only in marine sales .guess things will slip through .I sometimes get carried away with mistakes like this that should have safe guards in place to prevent.

For me Liveaquaria is a really useful tool. The staff in LFS aren't marine biologists, there is some great experience there but also some new staff that may get the information they provide slightly wrong. For this reason I'll just read up on my phone in the store about my intended purchase....it's saved me from making a mistake a few times now.

Takokok · 07/08/2015, 05:57 PM

I got it from petco, and i came back again yesterday and they told me that the person who sold it to me was new, ofcourse i know their just lying, they said no refund on salt water, and i didnt buy the fish the same time, the clown fish was like 4 days ago

kenpau · 07/08/2015, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takokok

I got it from petco, and i came back again yesterday and they told me that the person who sold it to me was new, ofcourse i know their just lying, they said no refund on salt water, and i didnt buy the fish the same time, the clown fish was like 4 days ago

In fairness I can completely understand the no returns policy. Imagine the amount of stressed fish that would come back to a LFS if they allowed everyone to take a fish home, throw it about in the bag, put it into an aquarium without proper acclimatisation, decide they don't want it, net it, throw it in a bucket then take it back to the store for a refund. It all comes back to proper research for the species and having the correct system and water parameters before you purchase.

cherryfox22 · 07/08/2015, 10:54 PM

Welcome to the forums! You've taken a good step, by posting here for advice. We've all made mistakes before, so do not feel alone.

Honestly, if I was you, I would call around and find an actual aquarium store to take back your fish. Tell them what happened, and I'm sure somewhere will work with you to take them back. Maybe they could even hold them for you while your tank cycles, and then give you back the ones that will be compatible after the tank cycles. They acquire a customer, it's a win win.

An in fish cycle is brutal on the fish. They can end up with ammonia burns among other health issues, and if you aren't doing proper/enough water changes/prime adding/etc, they will be swimming in toxic water. You need proper readings on the toxin level of the water at least daily (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

The way that I think of it, is imagine that burning feeling you get when smelling the ammonia of urine while cleaning a cat box out. They are basically living in that, intensified. Thats cruel in my opinion.

If a different fish store won't give you credit for the fish, then I would still give them to them for free for the poor fishes sake. You may be out a $100 or so, but there is a good chance they get sick or die, and they lose their lives as a result. Even if you don't like a fish, doesn't mean that it's okay to sacrifice and let it die.

Even Petco should take the fish back for free. The ones that I go to have fish for adoption in the planted tanks from people who have brought them in, I'm sure they have something for saltwater.

Also, you mention 5 in 1 dip strips. Those are HIGHLY inaccurate typically. Nor do they have ammonia, unless you got a different one then the one I'm thinking about. You want at the very least a master API kit in my opinion for accurate results. Red Sea is the best, but API is better than none.

toothybugs · 07/09/2015, 06:25 AM

No self-respecting LFS is going to take Petco fish

I like and fully second Sk8r's idea to set up a QT on the side and let the cycle complete. That's what I was going to suggest anyway. That way no one is out anything and the fish are protected too. (Just keep an eye on ammonia build up. QT water changes are sinfully easy.)

07/08/2015, 01:30 AM	#1
Takokok Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 5	Did not know about cycle until i got fishes So hey guys so i just discovered that i need to do a nitrogen cycle on my 40g salt water aquarium, i know that i was stupid to buy a fish right away,,, but hey im a beginner, so yeah i bought a pair of yellow tail damsels, 2 perc clown fish, 2 fire goby, 5 snails and 1 cleaner shrimp, im at my 8th day now, i have 2 large live rock about 7 pounds each, and sand corals, im just scared to lose all my fishes and cleaning crew, i mean damsels yeah they can go because they're aggressive. But not my nemo and firefish and cleaners. what should i do ? i saw a lot of thread that it is possible to do a cycle with fishes on them, but i dont know about having snails and a cleaner shrimp, im afraid that they might die from ammonia or nitrate ,nitrite. they're doing good though, eating normally

07/08/2015, 06:17 AM	#8
kmbyrnes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 2,055	You need a new LFS regardless __________________ 125g Mixed Reef 5/26/2015; 350 Butterfly Dominated FOWLR 11/26/2015 - 11/17/20217 & 07/31/18 to ??? ; 100g Mixed Reef 11/16/2013 to 06/16/2017 Current Tank Info: Too small

07/08/2015, 06:38 AM	#9
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	Seachem stability dosed per instructions and everything should be ok. I do say "should be" but without a cycled tank, anything is a crapshoot at this point. Seachem prime will help with any ammonia spike if your LFS won't take the fish back. With that large of a bioload, your more then likely to loose something if not all of your livestock. A seachem ammonia badge will help for knowing when you have any ammonia present, and when to add some prime to combat that ammonia. Nitrites and nitrates aren't as harmful for your livestock, but can also adversely affect them. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

07/08/2015, 09:05 AM	#10
gone fishin Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Wyocena Wi Posts: 6,936	Personally I would pull everything alive out of the tank and return it. The fish you have are common fish and will not be hard to replace after your cycled. 14 pounds of rock in a 40g is a bit on the low side for biological filtration. I would suggest doing some more reading while your tank is cycling. like the link. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074 assuming all the fish made it through the cycle. The 2 fire fish will become 1 eventually. There will most likely be aggression between the damsels and the clowns in a small tank. Use this link before you buy any fish. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2068112 Just my 2 cents worth. Good luck. __________________ Tony Current Tank Info: 180gal DT, BM NAC77 skimmer,3 Maxspect razors, Maxspect Gyre 150, 30g QT

07/08/2015, 09:29 AM	#11
kenpau Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: South Perth, Western Australia Posts: 844	yeah......the LFS shouldn't really have sold you the fish, having said that, it isn't their responsibility to ask every customer what stage their tank is at or what size it is or what livestock you have before each purchase. As reef keepers we are responsible for doing the best we can for the livestock we're purchasing. Unfortunately in this case I have to say that you're very unprepared, I'm not trying to have a go but the nitrogen cycle is the very first thing you should be learning before you even put water in the tank, I hope it all works out for the best because I'd hate to see those fish/inverts die because of being introduced too early. You'll learn very quickly in this hobby that rushing anything will more than likely end in disaster, the amazing reefs you see on here took years to build up, but that time spent, research and attention to detail is what makes them so amazing. Welcome to the hobby, you'll be fine, but I would say get researching everything from nitrogen cycles, to fish compatibility and coral requirements, theres a lot to learn but take it slow and you'll be fine. __________________ Current tank - 220 gallon mixed reef..Many thanks to Waterbox, Ecotech Marine, Neptune Systems, Pax Bellum, Nyos, Eheim and Hailea for creating my system..and making me poor!! Current Tank Info: 220 Gallon mixed reef

07/08/2015, 01:43 AM	#2
afrayler Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 8	How many days has it been? I'm surprised your LFS didn't give you advice or ask about your tank set up first. Just quickly off the top of my head I would think you need go juice to get bacteria in there to break everything down faster. I usually go an ounce per 10 gallons. I'm not sure if possible or not but if you could get the more important fish out (everything buy damsels) and let the store hold them or give you store credit it would let the bacteria work more efficiently while letting your tank cycle longer. The key in my experience with fish tanks is patience and knowing what your putting into the tank. I'm still no where near being an expert but I try and ask as much as I can before I do anything regarding my tanks.

07/08/2015, 01:58 AM	#3
Takokok Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 5	i guess the local fish store thought that i already have a normal functioning tank already because i was asking a lot of questions. my tank is going in 9 days now, i already added 20ml of bacteria food earlier, i'll try returning them for store credit, i hope i still get something

07/08/2015, 03:21 AM	#6
criticalencore Registered Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 381	A bacteria additive like brightwell mb7 says you can add fish on day 1 If you dose as per the directions. Seems a bit scary but I've seen it done. Was the rock you added to the tank "live" or was it dead dry rock? If it was out of a running system there may be enough bacteria on it to support your system. Is there brown dot looking algae everywhere? If not there may be enough bacteria to get you going. How do the fish look?

07/08/2015, 04:39 AM	#7
Marchillo Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,178	Even if the lfs didn't know he was cycled yet after wanting to buy all those fish he should have asked a question like "wow that is a lot of fish at once, what sized tank do you have". Etc etc. If he won't take them back Id fine a new lfs and make it a point to tell him he lost a lot of business from you by not being more proactive with questions.

07/08/2015, 02:47 PM	#12
Takokok Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 5	YEAH I checked already and the nitrates,nitrites were a lil bit high not dangerous yet, the ammonia is the prob i need to get a tester first, i bought the 5 test stick, and ammonia wasnt there, there are some algae on my rock, i believe those algae came from the LFS, also i have a live rock, is it ok to put another live rock? and also is it ok to turn on my wave maker? its only 500

07/08/2015, 03:11 PM	#13
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Your other course of action is to set up an uncycled qt, which you need anyway, put all livestock into it, keep it from cycling by frequent media changes, and just let the tank prepare itself via a regular cycle. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

07/08/2015, 03:22 PM	#14
ericarenee Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Louisville Kentucky Posts: 3,110	as others have said i would at the Busiest time take the fish back to the lfs and DEMAND THEY CREDIT YOU . I know here the lfs always ask people they do not know about there tank and even refuse to sell them that many fish at once and would def advise against that combination... The store did you wrong. to me its like a mechanic telling you your car needs a 50.00 part when its only a .50 cent fuse.... We as fish keepers have a responsibly to know what is right and wrong. but they people selling has a responsibility be sure they sell to responsible and capable people

07/08/2015, 05:57 PM	#18
Takokok Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 5	I got it from petco, and i came back again yesterday and they told me that the person who sold it to me was new, ofcourse i know their just lying, they said no refund on salt water, and i didnt buy the fish the same time, the clown fish was like 4 days ago

07/08/2015, 10:54 PM	#20
cherryfox22 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2015 Posts: 16	Welcome to the forums! You've taken a good step, by posting here for advice. We've all made mistakes before, so do not feel alone. Honestly, if I was you, I would call around and find an actual aquarium store to take back your fish. Tell them what happened, and I'm sure somewhere will work with you to take them back. Maybe they could even hold them for you while your tank cycles, and then give you back the ones that will be compatible after the tank cycles. They acquire a customer, it's a win win. An in fish cycle is brutal on the fish. They can end up with ammonia burns among other health issues, and if you aren't doing proper/enough water changes/prime adding/etc, they will be swimming in toxic water. You need proper readings on the toxin level of the water at least daily (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). The way that I think of it, is imagine that burning feeling you get when smelling the ammonia of urine while cleaning a cat box out. They are basically living in that, intensified. Thats cruel in my opinion. If a different fish store won't give you credit for the fish, then I would still give them to them for free for the poor fishes sake. You may be out a $100 or so, but there is a good chance they get sick or die, and they lose their lives as a result. Even if you don't like a fish, doesn't mean that it's okay to sacrifice and let it die. Even Petco should take the fish back for free. The ones that I go to have fish for adoption in the planted tanks from people who have brought them in, I'm sure they have something for saltwater. Also, you mention 5 in 1 dip strips. Those are HIGHLY inaccurate typically. Nor do they have ammonia, unless you got a different one then the one I'm thinking about. You want at the very least a master API kit in my opinion for accurate results. Red Sea is the best, but API is better than none. Last edited by cherryfox22; 07/08/2015 at 10:59 PM.

07/09/2015, 06:25 AM	#21
toothybugs In Memoriam Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: The smallest county in Illinois Posts: 1,986	No self-respecting LFS is going to take Petco fish I like and fully second Sk8r's idea to set up a QT on the side and let the cycle complete. That's what I was going to suggest anyway. That way no one is out anything and the fish are protected too. (Just keep an eye on ammonia build up. QT water changes are sinfully easy.)