New and Need Help - Setting up a 120 gallon tank with a 30 gallon sump

Buddabelch · 09/14/2015, 03:08 PM

Hello All,

I am new to saltwater but not new to the aquarium life. I have managed a 55 gallon heavily planted aquarium for many years with a lot of success. But I find myself wanting more.

I have a 120 Gallon Display tank and a 30 gallon spare that will be used as a sump. I am confused by all the talk of what is the right way to plumb it all and what I would need to do it. So I thought I would ask those that have a lot of experience. It will start as a FOWLR and once I get the $$ to upgrade lighting and a few other things will turn into a Reef setup.

I was thinking about drilling 4 1" holes (1 on either end for drains, about 3 inches in from the sides and 2 at 2' from the ends for the returns). The height of where the holes will be drilled to where the sump will sit will be approx. 4 feet (give or take a few inches).

The Sump will be divided into 3 chambers. Water will flow into chamber 1, where it will be initially filtered and a protein skimmer will be there. The water will move to chamber 2 where I would like to setup a refugium (w/Live Sand or refugium mud, Live Rock, Macro Algae, copepods and amphipods...This would then flow into Chamber 3 where I will have the heater and return pump. in the main tank I planned on 2-3" of Live Sand and 100 lbs of Live rock.

I have attached a picture of the starting setup...Still have a ways to go though...

Will 1" holes be adequate?
What would be your advice on the proper size return pump?
Will I need to add ball valves to control flow to/from or both?

Is there anything that I may have missed.

Any recommendations for this newbie would be greatly appreciated...

Regards,

Kevin

stingeragent · 09/14/2015, 04:16 PM

Before you start drilling, figure out what type of overflow setup you want be it durso, herbie, bean

whosurcaddie · 09/14/2015, 04:34 PM

Have you looked at a coast to coast overflow. I personally like it better than an overflow thats drilled from the bottom.

thegrun · 09/14/2015, 06:38 PM

+1, I made a coast to coast for my new 120 and it works great. As far as holes go you need to drill the holes large enough to accept the bulkhead you are going to use, not the pipe size. Hole sizes can vary a little from one manufacturer to another and definitely from schedule 40 to schedule 80, so purchase your bulkhead before you drill.
I'm using an Eheim 1262 for a return pump on my 120 and also to run a carbon and GFO reactor. Here is a link to my build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2511132, there is a list on post #7 of all the equipment I used on my tank if that is any help to you. Run a search here on Reef Central for durso, herbie, bean overflows so you can decide which one works best for you.

billdogg · 09/15/2015, 06:15 AM

I use the same return pump as thegrun (eheim 1262) for my 120 and it's reactors as well and couldn't be happier with it.

Instead of a C2C, I went with the 1500gph overflow from www.glass-holes.com It comes with everything you need including the properly sized hole saw.

Shawn O · 09/15/2015, 06:34 AM

A home made c2c would be cheapest but if you want to save tank space, a Ghost Overflow with an external o-flow box is also a pretty nice setup. You could achieve both by making your own c2c and having it only an inch or so wide ( just enough to install your bulkheads). Holes drilled for 1/5" should work, 2" would be better. No need to drill for the returns, unless this is the desired look you are going for. Many people here just run the returns up and over the back glass.

In order to get good flow through the sump and still have slow flow through the refugium, another option is to have 75% of the drain water going into chamber one (filter socks, skimmer, temp probe) then into chamber 2 (return pump and heaters). 25% of your drain water going to section 3 (fuge) and then into section 2 (return pump, heaters)

DarthReefer27 · 09/15/2015, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegrun

+1, I made a coast to coast for my new 120 and it works great. As far as holes go you need to drill the holes large enough to accept the bulkhead you are going to use, not the pipe size. Hole sizes can vary a little from one manufacturer to another and definitely from schedule 40 to schedule 80, so purchase your bulkhead before you drill.
I'm using an Eheim 1262 for a return pump on my 120 and also to run a carbon and GFO reactor. Here is a link to my build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2511132, there is a list on post #7 of all the equipment I used on my tank if that is any help to you. Run a search here on Reef Central for durso, herbie, bean overflows so you can decide which one works best for you.

I wasn't sure from your pictures if you were running your BRS reactors from your main return pump. do you have a picture of how you have that set up? I wanted to do the same.

Cymonous · 09/15/2015, 08:26 AM

That stand needs better support. You need vertical support at all 4 corners of the tank.

Buddabelch · 09/15/2015, 08:30 AM

Thanks all for the quick response. I had my setup backwards...I was rushing my post as I had to go get my granddaughter from school. It should have been drains in the middle and returns on the outside ends.

After a little more looking, I found an old link that change my mind a bit....I want to keep things hidden as much as possible and this solution seems to be what I am looking for. Each Overflow is up to 1200 gph...As I want to set things up now for future tank changes, I was looking at putting 2 of these in the middle (2' from each end, as it will fall under the top bracing). It works with 1 1/2" plumbing (requiring a 2 3/8' hole for the bulkheads). The returns they use are 1/2" and I would still put in 2 (one on either end). Here is the link to the site and a video of it:

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBa8HIESdIw

Website: http://www.customaquariums.com/c-2-h2overflow.aspx

Now as this overflow setup will be at roughly 2400 gph, what size pump would I then need. In my simple thinking, something the same size is required....Any thoughts?

I am attaching a image of how I see the system plumbing...

Regards,

Kevin

Buddabelch · 09/15/2015, 08:32 AM

FYI - Stand is still work in progress. I am only in the beginning stages of getting this all going...Going to work on it more today...

stingeragent · 09/15/2015, 05:03 PM

I think 2400 gph is a tad high for a 120. That # is of course nominal, and will be reduced by plumbing resistance and what have you. You have 2 choices really. The return needs to be greater than than the drain, but have the ability to reduce it, or you need the ability to reduce the drain flow if you have a lesser return. If your return is too big, and you can't dial it down, then a flood is in order. If your return is too low, and you can't reduce the drain, your overflows will be sucking air/water which is loud.

Edit: Looking at your diagram, I think your returns should be at least 3/4 and not 1/2 in.

Edit 2: Just to add my own failure story, do as much research as you can, or wait for lots of replies on here before you finalize everything. I jumped the gun on my first sump/plumbing sizes and I ended up with a terrible flow rate. I did a herbie setup with 2 1/2in drains. My return was just a tad bigger than the 1/4. It worked ok but I had less than 100gph of flow. I upped my return size to 3/4 and then my two 1/2 in drains couldn't keep up anymore unless I severely dropped the flow rate from the return. I wish I would have poured over much more info than I did before I started drilling.

whosurcaddie · 09/15/2015, 05:12 PM

That overflow that sticks out over the tank might cause some shadowing issues.

thegrun · 09/15/2015, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarthReefer27

I wasn't sure from your pictures if you were running your BRS reactors from your main return pump. do you have a picture of how you have that set up? I wanted to do the same.

You can't see it in this photo, but there is a tee coming off the return riser (white pipe with blue tape at the back of the cabinet) that runs behind the emergency drain pipe (white pipe red tape) and then elbows out towards the front of the tank. From that header it then tees again and there is an elbow (white pipe blue tape) with both lines to the reactors controlled by valves (gray).

Buddabelch · 09/16/2015, 05:33 AM

So I ran over to a LFS....He should me many of their Store display setups and explained to me about turnover and GPH...I had looked at some other posts about they amount of turnover required for a simple FOWLER and REEF setups...People recommended 10 times turnover for FOWLER and if you were going to keep corals that should be upped to 20 times...Given a 120 gallon tank that is where my numbers came from. But what I did not realize is that it did not need to all come from the drain/return portion. It can also come from properly placed powerheads also...

I agree with you Stingeragent....I need to do more research before doing anything and trust me I am in no hurry or rush to get this going. I do want to get it right or close to right as I can. I also agree that 2 returns at 3/4" will do the trick. I will place ball valves on them in case I need to Dial them back. And in talking to the LFS, using one 1 1/2 in drain running at approx. 1200gph should be also sufficient. Again I can use powerheads to add the additional flow as needed.

@whosurcaddie, this overflow setup has options...You can turn it in any direction as needed. So it can be closer to the back if desired. As for shadowing, in my original configuration, it would have been placed under the existing tank top supports...so it really would not have added any more shadowing....

And thanks for all the advice.

thegrun · 09/16/2015, 10:22 AM

I would recommend 20 times your DT in flow for a fish only system, 30 times the DT for soft corals and at a minimum 40 times the DT for SPS corals. I like a minimum of 5 times the DT running through the sump, but I usually shoot for 8 times the DT when my sumps are proportionally large for better sump flow.

CStrickland · 09/16/2015, 11:01 AM

I like 40x in the dt from powerheads and 5x through the sump, so pretty close to grun. I'm trying to have all the poop stay flying around so it goes down my overflow instead of settling in the tank and rotting.

I don't need as much flow in my sump cause I don't have a fuge so there's no light to cause cyano issues. Re: sumps I think the miracle mud is a ripoff. Algae and live sand and pods etc. are more of a personal choice, I think it's easier to keep the water on point with a clean tank so I don't bother with any off that cause it's easier to clean it if there's not a bunch of stuff in there. The sump is just a tool, how you set it up depends on what job you want it to do.

Id start over using this stand template http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1169964

Those overflows look like they will be very loud. It's an issue to have water and air banging in the pipe, take another look at the bean animals which use a full siphon to avoid that, and use an emergency drain for flood protection.

Just some opinions, as I'm sure you're noticing there are a lot of them

good luck!

KStatefan · 09/16/2015, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddabelch

Thanks all for the quick response. I had my setup backwards...I was rushing my post as I had to go get my granddaughter from school. It should have been drains in the middle and returns on the outside ends.

After a little more looking, I found an old link that change my mind a bit....I want to keep things hidden as much as possible and this solution seems to be what I am looking for. Each Overflow is up to 1200 gph...As I want to set things up now for future tank changes, I was looking at putting 2 of these in the middle (2' from each end, as it will fall under the top bracing). It works with 1 1/2" plumbing (requiring a 2 3/8' hole for the bulkheads). The returns they use are 1/2" and I would still put in 2 (one on either end). Here is the link to the site and a video of it:

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBa8HIESdIw

How much noise will these make when flowing 2400 gph? I would be concerned about this.

I do not think two 1/2 return lines is enough for 2400 gph.

Website: http://www.customaquariums.com/c-2-h2overflow.aspx

Now as this overflow setup will be at roughly 2400 gph, what size pump would I then need. In my simple thinking, something the same size is required....Any thoughts?

I am attaching a image of how I see the system plumbing...

Regards,

Kevin

CStrickland · 09/16/2015, 12:59 PM

Also, the pump needs to account for "head loss" from pushing uphill and resistance in the pipes so it will be stronger than the flow you want through the sump

Staisman · 09/16/2015, 01:21 PM

Here is very simple and reliable overflow option.

More here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHn7_ZqZljs

RocketEngineer · 09/16/2015, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staisman

Here is very simple and reliable overflow option.

More here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHn7_ZqZljs

I disagree. Despite being simple, its actually a pretty poor design. I could never push the volume through mine that I can with my coast-to-coast.

OP: Research the BeanAnimal Drain setup. It is simply the best way to plumb a reasonably large setup (i.e. 90g+) as well as being totally silent when properly adjusted and fail safe. The like you posted is nothing but a fancy screen with very limited surface skimming potential which is the entire purpose of an overflow. And 1200gph through one of those things is both laughable and would be very noisy. After enough time has gone by, you won't even see the overflow as its encrusted with coraline algae.

Staisman · 09/16/2015, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RocketEngineer

I disagree. Despite being simple, its actually a pretty poor design. I could never push the volume through mine that I can with my coast-to-coast.

The volume will be set by the pipe size you are going to use. I have two 1" pipe on each side. If you need more you can use bigger pipe. I have more than enough flow for my 75 G.

The benefits are: quiet, reliable, simple, doesn't use much space in the tank, big skimming area.

RocketEngineer · 09/16/2015, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staisman

The volume will be set by the pipe size you are going to use. I have two 1" pipe on each side. If you need more you can use bigger pipe. I have more than enough flow for my 75 G.

The benefits are: quiet, reliable, simple, doesn't use much space in the tank, big skimming area.

My 75g was set up that way. I was able to push maybe 200gph through it. The surface skimming was limited because the water in the middle of the slit pipe never made it down the drain.

My 125g uses a BeanAnimal design and pushes 1000gph. I get water pulled from the entire 42" of my internal box. By having an external box with all the plumbing, the two are comparable in how much room they take up.

I've used both. I will never go back as the coast-to-coast overflow combined with a BeanAnimal drain is so much more capable. Sure the cut pipe works, its just far from the best option available.

Staisman · 09/16/2015, 02:30 PM

I didn't say it's the best, I said it's simple and reliable

Which it is. I dunno why you disagree on that one.

stingeragent · 09/16/2015, 08:49 PM

Budda, yes your total flow comes from everything, not just your sump setup. In just my experience, once you have what you want, and your ready to drill, double check it all again 1 more time. When I first setup my sump, I loved it. Was my first time drilling a tank, and I didn't crack the glass which was a big plus for me. It worked as intended, but it wasn't until I upgraded my return plumbing to the proper size that I realized I effed the whole thing up originally. If anything, I'd say to lean towards the size of too big and put a valve on there than go to small. Another lesson learned for me was don't use teflon tape if any of your pvc is threaded. Get the paste type stuff instead , otherwise it will leak. It may take a month, but it will leak.

09/15/2015, 06:15 AM	#5
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	I use the same return pump as thegrun (eheim 1262) for my 120 and it's reactors as well and couldn't be happier with it. Instead of a C2C, I went with the 1500gph overflow from www.glass-holes.com It comes with everything you need including the properly sized hole saw. __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

09/15/2015, 06:34 AM	#6
Shawn O Registered Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: People's Communist Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 1,474	A home made c2c would be cheapest but if you want to save tank space, a Ghost Overflow with an external o-flow box is also a pretty nice setup. You could achieve both by making your own c2c and having it only an inch or so wide ( just enough to install your bulkheads). Holes drilled for 1/5" should work, 2" would be better. No need to drill for the returns, unless this is the desired look you are going for. Many people here just run the returns up and over the back glass. In order to get good flow through the sump and still have slow flow through the refugium, another option is to have 75% of the drain water going into chamber one (filter socks, skimmer, temp probe) then into chamber 2 (return pump and heaters). 25% of your drain water going to section 3 (fuge) and then into section 2 (return pump, heaters) __________________ "55gal glass box full of water, rocks and some not-so-amused little fishes" 2x Occellaris, 1 Pajama, 1 Neon Dottyback. Current Tank Info: 55gal tank, sumpless, ReefOctopus Classic 90, Twin bulb T5.

09/15/2015, 08:26 AM	#8
Cymonous My Clown Attacks Me Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,105	That stand needs better support. You need vertical support at all 4 corners of the tank. __________________ 100 Gallon Long with 20L sump 10 Gallon Office Tank Current Tank Info: 2 False Percula Clowns, One Spot Foxface, Diamond Watchman Goby, Yellow Tail Damsel, Engineer Goby

09/15/2015, 05:03 PM	#11
stingeragent Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,032	I think 2400 gph is a tad high for a 120. That # is of course nominal, and will be reduced by plumbing resistance and what have you. You have 2 choices really. The return needs to be greater than than the drain, but have the ability to reduce it, or you need the ability to reduce the drain flow if you have a lesser return. If your return is too big, and you can't dial it down, then a flood is in order. If your return is too low, and you can't reduce the drain, your overflows will be sucking air/water which is loud. Edit: Looking at your diagram, I think your returns should be at least 3/4 and not 1/2 in. Edit 2: Just to add my own failure story, do as much research as you can, or wait for lots of replies on here before you finalize everything. I jumped the gun on my first sump/plumbing sizes and I ended up with a terrible flow rate. I did a herbie setup with 2 1/2in drains. My return was just a tad bigger than the 1/4. It worked ok but I had less than 100gph of flow. I upped my return size to 3/4 and then my two 1/2 in drains couldn't keep up anymore unless I severely dropped the flow rate from the return. I wish I would have poured over much more info than I did before I started drilling. Last edited by stingeragent; 09/15/2015 at 05:08 PM.

09/16/2015, 11:01 AM	#16
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	I like 40x in the dt from powerheads and 5x through the sump, so pretty close to grun. I'm trying to have all the poop stay flying around so it goes down my overflow instead of settling in the tank and rotting. I don't need as much flow in my sump cause I don't have a fuge so there's no light to cause cyano issues. Re: sumps I think the miracle mud is a ripoff. Algae and live sand and pods etc. are more of a personal choice, I think it's easier to keep the water on point with a clean tank so I don't bother with any off that cause it's easier to clean it if there's not a bunch of stuff in there. The sump is just a tool, how you set it up depends on what job you want it to do. Id start over using this stand template http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1169964 Those overflows look like they will be very loud. It's an issue to have water and air banging in the pipe, take another look at the bean animals which use a full siphon to avoid that, and use an emergency drain for flood protection. Just some opinions, as I'm sure you're noticing there are a lot of them good luck! __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

09/14/2015, 04:16 PM	#2
stingeragent Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,032	Before you start drilling, figure out what type of overflow setup you want be it durso, herbie, bean

09/14/2015, 04:34 PM	#3
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	Have you looked at a coast to coast overflow. I personally like it better than an overflow thats drilled from the bottom.

09/14/2015, 06:38 PM	#4
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	+1, I made a coast to coast for my new 120 and it works great. As far as holes go you need to drill the holes large enough to accept the bulkhead you are going to use, not the pipe size. Hole sizes can vary a little from one manufacturer to another and definitely from schedule 40 to schedule 80, so purchase your bulkhead before you drill. I'm using an Eheim 1262 for a return pump on my 120 and also to run a carbon and GFO reactor. Here is a link to my build: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2511132, there is a list on post #7 of all the equipment I used on my tank if that is any help to you. Run a search here on Reef Central for durso, herbie, bean overflows so you can decide which one works best for you.

09/15/2015, 08:32 AM	#10
Buddabelch Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 5	FYI - Stand is still work in progress. I am only in the beginning stages of getting this all going...Going to work on it more today...

09/15/2015, 05:12 PM	#12
whosurcaddie Registered Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,354	That overflow that sticks out over the tank might cause some shadowing issues.

09/16/2015, 05:33 AM	#14
Buddabelch Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 5	So I ran over to a LFS....He should me many of their Store display setups and explained to me about turnover and GPH...I had looked at some other posts about they amount of turnover required for a simple FOWLER and REEF setups...People recommended 10 times turnover for FOWLER and if you were going to keep corals that should be upped to 20 times...Given a 120 gallon tank that is where my numbers came from. But what I did not realize is that it did not need to all come from the drain/return portion. It can also come from properly placed powerheads also... I agree with you Stingeragent....I need to do more research before doing anything and trust me I am in no hurry or rush to get this going. I do want to get it right or close to right as I can. I also agree that 2 returns at 3/4" will do the trick. I will place ball valves on them in case I need to Dial them back. And in talking to the LFS, using one 1 1/2 in drain running at approx. 1200gph should be also sufficient. Again I can use powerheads to add the additional flow as needed. @whosurcaddie, this overflow setup has options...You can turn it in any direction as needed. So it can be closer to the back if desired. As for shadowing, in my original configuration, it would have been placed under the existing tank top supports...so it really would not have added any more shadowing.... And thanks for all the advice.

09/16/2015, 10:22 AM	#15
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	I would recommend 20 times your DT in flow for a fish only system, 30 times the DT for soft corals and at a minimum 40 times the DT for SPS corals. I like a minimum of 5 times the DT running through the sump, but I usually shoot for 8 times the DT when my sumps are proportionally large for better sump flow.

09/16/2015, 12:59 PM	#18
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	Also, the pump needs to account for "head loss" from pushing uphill and resistance in the pipes so it will be stronger than the flow you want through the sump __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

09/16/2015, 01:21 PM	#19
Staisman Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: NY, Long Island Posts: 313	Here is very simple and reliable overflow option. More here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHn7_ZqZljs __________________ My build (75 gal DT with 55 gal sump/refugium): http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2442383 Current Tank Info: 75 gal with 55 gal sump/refugium

09/16/2015, 02:30 PM	#23
Staisman Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: NY, Long Island Posts: 313	I didn't say it's the best, I said it's simple and reliable Which it is. I dunno why you disagree on that one. __________________ My build (75 gal DT with 55 gal sump/refugium): http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2442383 Current Tank Info: 75 gal with 55 gal sump/refugium

09/16/2015, 08:49 PM	#24
stingeragent Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,032	Budda, yes your total flow comes from everything, not just your sump setup. In just my experience, once you have what you want, and your ready to drill, double check it all again 1 more time. When I first setup my sump, I loved it. Was my first time drilling a tank, and I didn't crack the glass which was a big plus for me. It worked as intended, but it wasn't until I upgraded my return plumbing to the proper size that I realized I effed the whole thing up originally. If anything, I'd say to lean towards the size of too big and put a valve on there than go to small. Another lesson learned for me was don't use teflon tape if any of your pvc is threaded. Get the paste type stuff instead , otherwise it will leak. It may take a month, but it will leak.