TTM Question?

RayAllen3422 · 02/02/2016, 07:59 AM

I have been out of the hobby for several years and am getting back in. I am surprised with all the emphasis on TTM. I understand the necessity for QT procedures. It just seems like the TTM would cause more stress and potential for error matching salinity and temps. Why not just QT and if there is ich then do the TTM? It just seems like unnecessary work and potential stress when the fish may not even have ich.

I know this is probably a touchy subject but I would really like to know as I will be setting up my own QT practices soon. Thanks in advance.

scooter31707 · 02/02/2016, 08:47 AM

Personally, I like the method and it helps prevent ich if it is not present. Remember sometimes we cannot see ich as it can be in their gills, so we think they are ok. I like the fact that TTM will prevent another medicine going into my QT. In my QT, I treat with a round of (2nd round if necessary) Prazi-Pro for flukes. The process is not really hard at all. I brought 2 of the same pieces of equipment, so heat should be the same as you set the same heater to the same temp. You do 4 transfers which is 40 gallons of water which I make up at one time, so salinity is the same there. Hope that answers your question.

MondoBongo · 02/02/2016, 09:32 AM

the TTM protocol isn't really all that stressful if done right. low light is a good helper to keeping the fish calm while removing them for transfer. outside of the actual moves, they're just hanging out in the tank, so not too bad at all. just remember to use some large PVC pieces for hiding places.

there has been a bit of a learning curve for me with TTM. i have found that pre-calibrating my heaters, and testing salinity and temp a few times a day is very helpful. if you're siphoning and changing water regularly though, the evaporation loss isn't too bad, unless you happen to be in a dryer climate.

since the process is fairly straightforward, and i have the room for it, i find it to be a good prophylactic step. less stressful, and more effective, than using copper prophylactically. if your situation is different, then you must decide accordingly. any QT is better than no QT, so plan your protocol around what works for you and your setup. at the end of the day it is a risk mitigation strategy, some protocols provide better risk mitigation that others, but having something is far better than having nothing.

A.Astore · 02/02/2016, 03:14 PM

As a person that tried the Cupramine approach to ICH as well as the TTM for a fish from the start, I promise you that the TTM is MUCH less stress on the fish and person taking care of it. The TTM is actually really simple as long as you have a DT that you know does not have ICH (granted, if it does you will have it on the fish eventually anyway so I guess it doesn't matter right?). I take the water right from my display tank to fill my 10 gallon Tank A and have the QT to the same temp as the display. When I am ready to fill Tank B I again use the tank water. The beauty of this is that you get a X gallon water change to your DT every couple days while you are going through it AND when it comes times to move the fish to the display you already have them in the water so as long as you are able to keep temp (which should be easy) you have no acclimation concerns.

The other benefit is you can dose PraziPro for flukes and other internal junk when you flip into tank B both times.

There are a few things this won't get rid of by out running (Velvet being one of them) but you are able to still monitor so you are still at an advantage.

Once you get a rhythm in place it is not a pain. After dealing with monitoring copper and ammonia in a QT due to ICH I swore I would NEVER do it again. It was so much more stress on me and the fish. I have the exact same things for both of the TTM tanks so that when the fish gets flipped it is placed in the same exact setting. None of the fish even hide after the second transfer in my experience and just go about their day as usual.

The other benefit I have found is that ammonia isn't a major issue because they are in there less than 72 hours. You can still use products like Prime if you want though which you could not do with Cupramine. I laughed off the thought of TTM until I went through the first battle with ICH on a fish in QT and used a copper based med.

It is all preference and thoughts about meds in general. I think you will make more people just happy you are QTing around here than anything!

The good part is you can try it one way and if you don't like it you know to shift your approach.

jstack · 02/02/2016, 03:59 PM

do you have to use rodi or can i use cheap walmart ro or tap....I have an Aquatic buddy 50 gph .....plz no brs 4 stage sooooonnn precious

RayAllen3422 · 02/02/2016, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jstack

do you have to use rodi or can i use cheap walmart ro or tap....I have an Aquatic buddy 50 gph .....plz no brs 4 stage sooooonnn precious

I'm not really sure how this applies to my question but yes you should use RODI.

A.Astore · 02/02/2016, 04:44 PM

Hmm, good question and I never really thought about it because I always just take it from my tank. I would think the Walmart RO would be okay and tap water I don't see hurting so long as you use the de-chlorinator stuff. People say they use their tap water all the time (we used it with our 55 gallon a few years ago with no issue). Obviously that is pending the fact you don't live in an area with water that you should not even be bathing in...

snorvich · 02/02/2016, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.Astore

Hmm, good question and I never really thought about it because I always just take it from my tank. I would think the Walmart RO would be okay and tap water I don't see hurting so long as you use the de-chlorinator stuff. People say they use their tap water all the time (we used it with our 55 gallon a few years ago with no issue). Obviously that is pending the fact you don't live in an area with water that you should not even be bathing in...

Take water from your tank only if you can guarantee it is parasite free.

kmbyrnes · 02/04/2016, 05:47 AM

Even though I know my tanks are parasite free ( thanks to proper QT ), I always use new water. I figure that's one less source of possible cross contamination.

SouthFla · 02/04/2016, 06:23 AM

Recently got back into reefing after quite a few years. Never really followed any QT protocol in the past. Learned about TTM here (THANK YOU RC), and while the science was sound the practice seemed a bit clunky and a PITA. However, once i got setup w/2 10G tanks and the minimal amount of equip needed, and figured out the TTM routine, and saw the 100% success (for me with 7 healthy fish, including Angels, tangs a wrasses now in my DT), I WILL NEVER NOT DO TTM!

THANK YOU to all of the folks here who repeatedly/insistently/naggingly promote this procedure-it has made this wonderful hobby SO much more enjoyable and successful

JMorris271 · 02/04/2016, 08:33 AM

Taking the water from the DT for TTM will require new water to replace the water removed for the water change. Doing this will entail remaking and adding new water to the DT every three days anyway. Is that correct? In my setup, if I remove 10 gals of water my overflow dries up.

RayAllen3422 · 02/04/2016, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMorris271

Taking the water from the DT for TTM will require new water to replace the water removed for the water change. Doing this will entail remaking and adding new water to the DT every three days anyway. Is that correct? In my setup, if I remove 10 gals of water my overflow dries up.

Correct. Anytime water comes out it has to be replaced to get parameters steady and keep the system functioning i.e. Return pumps not dry pumping or an ATO filling what was taken out.

02/02/2016, 07:59 AM	#1
RayAllen3422 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Winchester, VA Posts: 403	TTM Question? I have been out of the hobby for several years and am getting back in. I am surprised with all the emphasis on TTM. I understand the necessity for QT procedures. It just seems like the TTM would cause more stress and potential for error matching salinity and temps. Why not just QT and if there is ich then do the TTM? It just seems like unnecessary work and potential stress when the fish may not even have ich. I know this is probably a touchy subject but I would really like to know as I will be setting up my own QT practices soon. Thanks in advance.

02/02/2016, 09:32 AM	#3
MondoBongo Obligate Feeder Obsessed Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 4,061	the TTM protocol isn't really all that stressful if done right. low light is a good helper to keeping the fish calm while removing them for transfer. outside of the actual moves, they're just hanging out in the tank, so not too bad at all. just remember to use some large PVC pieces for hiding places. there has been a bit of a learning curve for me with TTM. i have found that pre-calibrating my heaters, and testing salinity and temp a few times a day is very helpful. if you're siphoning and changing water regularly though, the evaporation loss isn't too bad, unless you happen to be in a dryer climate. since the process is fairly straightforward, and i have the room for it, i find it to be a good prophylactic step. less stressful, and more effective, than using copper prophylactically. if your situation is different, then you must decide accordingly. any QT is better than no QT, so plan your protocol around what works for you and your setup. at the end of the day it is a risk mitigation strategy, some protocols provide better risk mitigation that others, but having something is far better than having nothing. __________________ [Citation Needed] "You don't use science to show that you're right, you use science to become right" - xkcd Current Tank Info: A rectangular shaped money pit.

02/04/2016, 05:47 AM	#9
kmbyrnes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 2,055	Even though I know my tanks are parasite free ( thanks to proper QT ), I always use new water. I figure that's one less source of possible cross contamination. __________________ 125g Mixed Reef 5/26/2015; 350 Butterfly Dominated FOWLR 11/26/2015 - 11/17/20217 & 07/31/18 to ??? ; 100g Mixed Reef 11/16/2013 to 06/16/2017 Current Tank Info: Too small

02/04/2016, 06:23 AM	#10
SouthFla Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Miami, Florida USA Posts: 256	Recently got back into reefing after quite a few years. Never really followed any QT protocol in the past. Learned about TTM here (THANK YOU RC), and while the science was sound the practice seemed a bit clunky and a PITA. However, once i got setup w/2 10G tanks and the minimal amount of equip needed, and figured out the TTM routine, and saw the 100% success (for me with 7 healthy fish, including Angels, tangs a wrasses now in my DT), I WILL NEVER NOT DO TTM! THANK YOU to all of the folks here who repeatedly/insistently/naggingly promote this procedure-it has made this wonderful hobby SO much more enjoyable and successful __________________ 125g mixed reef, Apex controlled, 30g sump, RO 150sss skimmer, Eheim 1262 return, NextReef MR1 reactor w/Rox C, (2) EcoDrift 8.0 1K-2K GPH, (2) Jebao PP8 1K-2K GPH, (5) 80W ATI T5s Current Tank Info: 125G reef, Alk ~8.1, Ca 410, Mg 1350, 1.025SG

02/04/2016, 08:33 AM	#11
JMorris271 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Foothills of SC Posts: 2,010	Taking the water from the DT for TTM will require new water to replace the water removed for the water change. Doing this will entail remaking and adding new water to the DT every three days anyway. Is that correct? In my setup, if I remove 10 gals of water my overflow dries up. __________________ 120 gal mixed tank. Lightly stocked now but....

02/02/2016, 08:47 AM	#2
scooter31707 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Virginia Posts: 4,971	Personally, I like the method and it helps prevent ich if it is not present. Remember sometimes we cannot see ich as it can be in their gills, so we think they are ok. I like the fact that TTM will prevent another medicine going into my QT. In my QT, I treat with a round of (2nd round if necessary) Prazi-Pro for flukes. The process is not really hard at all. I brought 2 of the same pieces of equipment, so heat should be the same as you set the same heater to the same temp. You do 4 transfers which is 40 gallons of water which I make up at one time, so salinity is the same there. Hope that answers your question.

02/02/2016, 03:14 PM	#4
A.Astore Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Waynesboro, VA Posts: 418	As a person that tried the Cupramine approach to ICH as well as the TTM for a fish from the start, I promise you that the TTM is MUCH less stress on the fish and person taking care of it. The TTM is actually really simple as long as you have a DT that you know does not have ICH (granted, if it does you will have it on the fish eventually anyway so I guess it doesn't matter right?). I take the water right from my display tank to fill my 10 gallon Tank A and have the QT to the same temp as the display. When I am ready to fill Tank B I again use the tank water. The beauty of this is that you get a X gallon water change to your DT every couple days while you are going through it AND when it comes times to move the fish to the display you already have them in the water so as long as you are able to keep temp (which should be easy) you have no acclimation concerns. The other benefit is you can dose PraziPro for flukes and other internal junk when you flip into tank B both times. There are a few things this won't get rid of by out running (Velvet being one of them) but you are able to still monitor so you are still at an advantage. Once you get a rhythm in place it is not a pain. After dealing with monitoring copper and ammonia in a QT due to ICH I swore I would NEVER do it again. It was so much more stress on me and the fish. I have the exact same things for both of the TTM tanks so that when the fish gets flipped it is placed in the same exact setting. None of the fish even hide after the second transfer in my experience and just go about their day as usual. The other benefit I have found is that ammonia isn't a major issue because they are in there less than 72 hours. You can still use products like Prime if you want though which you could not do with Cupramine. I laughed off the thought of TTM until I went through the first battle with ICH on a fish in QT and used a copper based med. It is all preference and thoughts about meds in general. I think you will make more people just happy you are QTing around here than anything! The good part is you can try it one way and if you don't like it you know to shift your approach.

02/02/2016, 03:59 PM	#5
jstack Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: abq,nm Posts: 290	do you have to use rodi or can i use cheap walmart ro or tap....I have an Aquatic buddy 50 gph .....plz no brs 4 stage sooooonnn precious

02/02/2016, 04:44 PM	#7
A.Astore Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Waynesboro, VA Posts: 418	Hmm, good question and I never really thought about it because I always just take it from my tank. I would think the Walmart RO would be okay and tap water I don't see hurting so long as you use the de-chlorinator stuff. People say they use their tap water all the time (we used it with our 55 gallon a few years ago with no issue). Obviously that is pending the fact you don't live in an area with water that you should not even be bathing in...