QT sailfin tang dead after 2 days..

[Mmfarm]

Hi all. First post and new to this. Two days ago I bought a sailfin tang and a purple dottyback. I placed both into my 10g quarantine tank that I setup using water from my 55g DT. DT has been cycled for 1.5 months or so. Has 2 damsels, 10 snails and 10 hermits. Live rock, one power head, and a hanging penguin 350 (I think). Water according to test kit has been "normal" for my DT tank. Zero ammonia, zero nitrites, 20 nitrates, alkalinity 300, ph 7.8 to 8.4.
QT tank is 10g, simple hanging filter no carbon, heater, air stone, and pvc at bottom.
The tang ate fine and was doing well the first day and a half. I then introduced copper yesterday morning 1 ml according to directions. Came home this afternoon and he was not doing well. Swimming on side. I did close to a 50% change using DT tank. Unfortunately a short while later I watched as he got a burst of energy and then died. I tested the water I pulled from DT and said copper levels were between .3 and .5. All other levels ammonia etc were similar to DT tank.
The dotty seems ok still. Any thoughts on what I did wrong? Got fish from lfs which is very respected in Atlanta. They do run small amounts of copper on all their fish. Hate to make the same mistake again. Appreciate the thoughts.

[Fitz19d]

So was still testing 0 ammonia on day 2? I dont see you saying you have anything as an actual bacterial filter, just a "filter" which I assume just the hob. Is it actually seeded with rock or a sponge from the main tank?

Just free floating water will not have the bacteria to keep the nitrogen cycle going on tiny tank with a couple fish.


Others can comment on medications and stuff, but that's my first thing I see.

[vhuang168]

What was the SG of the water from the LFS and what is the SG of your water? Acclimation procedure?

Alkalinity of 300ppm!?! That's 16.8dkh!

[Mmfarm]

It does not have any bacteria filter. I am working on a mesh filter in my main I could switch over after several weeks? I knew I would have to watch the water and may have to do more changes. The ammonia level was still zero after the fish died.

[MMacro]

Both the 10 gallon tank and the 55 gallon are extremely small for a sailfin tang. He may have died due to stress. Also, the alk seems to be very high...

[Mmfarm]

Originally Posted by vhuang168

What was the SG of the water from the LFS and what is the SG of your water? Acclimation procedure?

Alkalinity of 300ppm!?! That's 16.8dkh!

May have said that wrong? Easy strip tester said 300 for kh or total alkalinity. Said it was ideal? My sg is 1.024. I don't know lfs offhand but he told me he doesn't really run hypo salinity.

[vhuang168]

Originally Posted by Mmfarm

May have said that wrong? Easy strip tester said 300 for kh or total alkalinity. Said it was ideal? My sg is 1.024. I don't know lfs offhand but he told me he doesn't really run hypo salinity.

How did you acclimate?

Might want to get proper saltwater test kits.

[Mmfarm]

Originally Posted by vhuang168

How did you acclimate?

Might want to get proper saltwater test kits.

Only let the bag float for an hour before placing in the tank. Didn't do a drip or slow fill into bag..probably should have. Keep thinking it is related to adding copper but everything I read says copper should be fine?

[vhuang168]

I think that's the problem, you need to drip acclimate.

[Mmfarm]

Originally Posted by vhuang168

I think that's the problem, you need to drip acclimate.

Thanks. Don't know why I didn't do that! You think he would have lived the day and a half doing well if that was it?

[Mmfarm]

Originally Posted by Reeferplax

Both the 10 gallon tank and the 55 gallon are extremely small for a sailfin tang. He may have died due to stress. Also, the alk seems to be very high...

Appreciate the thoughts all...How do I lower alk levels?

[ca1ore]

Though its human nature I suppose to always look for the cause or the 'mistake', sometimes fish just die. A new fish is a highly stressed animal, so it could have been anything really. Of the things mentioned, I'd think it most likely that the LFS water was closer to 1.018 versus 1.024 - and that's a big difference, particularly when going up. So, that's probably it. Next time, adjust the salinity of your QT down to that of the incoming bag water, then all you have to do is float the bag for 15 mins or so. Over the course of a few weeks you can gradually bring it back up to 1.024.

[Mmfarm]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Though its human nature I suppose to always look for the cause or the 'mistake', sometimes fish just die. A new fish is a highly stressed animal, so it could have been anything really. Of the things mentioned, I'd think it most likely that the LFS water was closer to 1.018 versus 1.024 - and that's a big difference, particularly when going up. So, that's probably it. Next time, adjust the salinity of your QT down to that of the incoming bag water, then all you have to do is float the bag for 15 mins or so. Over the course of a few weeks you can gradually bring it back up to 1.024.

Appreciate everyone's comments. Will take the advice and hope for better luck.

[jacyn]

From personal experience and research on the subject I've learned that you must slowly introduce the copper treatment over 5 days or longer before reaching the effective copper level. If you follow the directions on the bottle your risk of fish death rises. Copper is great but it is strong even for fish. They will tolerate and they will do much better if they can adjust to it slowly. I have not lost a fish since doing this. I add the Cuperamine first at half of the half beginning dosage its says to use. Then slowly raise it over a period of a week. If you added the copper all at once or over one to two days it's probably what did him in. Acclimation is also important as was said.

[gone fishin]

Originally Posted by jacyn

From personal experience and research on the subject I've learned that you must slowly introduce the copper treatment over 5 days or longer before reaching the effective copper level. If you follow the directions on the bottle your risk of fish death rises. Copper is great but it is strong even for fish. They will tolerate and they will do much better if they can adjust to it slowly. I have not lost a fish since doing this. I add the Cuperamine first at half of the half beginning dosage its says to use. Then slowly raise it over a period of a week. If you added the copper all at once or over one to two days it's probably what did him in. Acclimation is also important as was said.

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Though its human nature I suppose to always look for the cause or the 'mistake', sometimes fish just die. A new fish is a highly stressed animal, so it could have been anything really. Of the things mentioned, I'd think it most likely that the LFS water was closer to 1.018 versus 1.024 - and that's a big difference, particularly when going up. So, that's probably it. Next time, adjust the salinity of your QT down to that of the incoming bag water, then all you have to do is float the bag for 15 mins or so. Over the course of a few weeks you can gradually bring it back up to 1.024.

I agree with both of these statements.

[kmbyrnes]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Though its human nature I suppose to always look for the cause or the 'mistake', sometimes fish just die. A new fish is a highly stressed animal, so it could have been anything really. Of the things mentioned, I'd think it most likely that the LFS water was closer to 1.018 versus 1.024 - and that's a big difference, particularly when going up. So, that's probably it. Next time, adjust the salinity of your QT down to that of the incoming bag water, then all you have to do is float the bag for 15 mins or so. Over the course of a few weeks you can gradually bring it back up to 1.024.

Agreed. Fish die from the whole catching/shipping process. If one fish dies but the other seem healthy, it may not be anything you did wrong.
Good on you for doing QT. Check with your LFS on what they say the salinity is and set your QT to the same. Double check at the store, Then just temp acclimate.

[CuzzA]

I can't add much, good advice already above. But I would reconsider putting a sailfin tang or nearly any tang for that matter in a 55 gallon tank.

[BrianD]

^Yes

[jayball]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

I can't add much, good advice already above. But I would reconsider putting a sailfin tang or nearly any tang for that matter in a 55 gallon tank.

Yeah, take a look here for recommended tank sizes http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1946079

you might get away with a kole or other bristle tooth but it will likely be extra aggressive, as an owner of a maladjusted kole (in a 90 gallon) I would not recommend it.

[Mmfarm]

Thanks. More good advice. Will let the dolly ride out the QT before I try another fish and will slow down on copper and ensure acclimation. What do you think about keeping the sailfin in a 55 until it gets "too big" then give it back to lfs at a small buy back? Or is even a small sailfin not good for a 55g?

[CuzzA]

Here's the problem with that... Tangs grow pretty fast. Most tangs are large fish and require large tanks. I had a blue hippo go from an inch to 6 inches in one year. Everyone says they'll just trade them in, but it usually doesn't happen until it's too late. Why? Because catching fish in a mature tank stocked with expensive corals sucks!!! It's not easy, you risk damaging your corals, scratching your tank and killing other inhabitants. It's easy to put fish in a tank, not so much when you're trying to get them out. So what happens? It's put off and put off and it never happens until the fish dies or starts wrecking the tank with aggression.

So you have to ask yourself, why bother. Why not accept the fact you have a tank that can only support certain species and leave the big ones for those with big tanks. Or upgrade your tank. There's also the moral issue here. We don't breed most marine species like we do cats, dogs and even freshwater fish. There is not an unlimited supply like pigs, cows and chickens. So being a responsible hobbyist we all should make smart choices.

That's my take anyway. It's really none of my business what you do, you'll be the one that has to live with the decision down the road. There are plenty of excellent options for your size tank. Beautiful fish that will do very well, a tang isn't one of them.

[Mmfarm]

Originally Posted by CuzzA

Here's the problem with that... Tangs grow pretty fast. Most tangs are large fish and require large tanks. I had a blue hippo go from an inch to 6 inches in one year. Everyone says they'll just trade them in, but it usually doesn't happen until it's too late. Why? Because catching fish in a mature tank stocked with expensive corals sucks!!! It's not easy, you risk damaging your corals, scratching your tank and killing other inhabitants. It's easy to put fish in a tank, not so much when you're trying to get them out. So what happens? It's put off and put off and it never happens until the fish dies or starts wrecking the tank with aggression.

So you have to ask yourself, why bother. Why not accept the fact you have a tank that can only support certain species and leave the big ones for those with big tanks. Or upgrade your tank. There's also the moral issue here. We don't breed most marine species like we do cats, dogs and even freshwater fish. There is not an unlimited supply like pigs, cows and chickens. So being a responsible hobbyist we all should make smart choices.

That's my take anyway. It's really none of my business what you do, you'll be the one that has to live with the decision down the road. There are plenty of excellent options for your size tank. Beautiful fish that will do very well, a tang isn't one of them.

Fair enough!

[Sk8r]

SUggest also---your own refractometer, your own test kits, incl. alkalinity. Always double-check salinity when about to move a fish. Rather than drip acclimate, you should pre-set the qt salinity to match that of the fish, so that you don't need to acclimate except a 15 minute float of the still-sealed bag to equalize temperature.

Test salinity, temperature, and alkalinity at least once weekly. If your salinity is changing, an Autotopoff is a must.

[kmbyrnes]

Originally Posted by Mmfarm

What do you think about keeping the sailfin in a 55 until it gets "too big" then give it back to lfs at a small buy back? Or is even a small sailfin not good for a 55g?

The problem with your thinking is this: Everyone else has the same thought.

As beautiful as these fish are, they are not suited to such a small tank. As a newbie I had a 3" sailfin in a 110. That lasted about 2 months. I was lucky enough to find him a home in a nice 600 gallon tank.
The LFS doesn't have room for large fish any more than you do, And the number of large tank owners that will buy full grown fish is small. After all, part of the fun is watching them grow.

Please be responsible and only buy fish whose adult size is compatible with your CURRENT tank, not the one you plan to upgrade to next year. Life happens.

[bat21]

Ignoring that it was the wrong fish for your tank, the takeaway for you is to be much more vigilant about salinity. Ask your LFS what level they keep their system, and match that with your QT. But test the bag water after you get home to make sure. Sometimes it isn't what you expect. I don't drip acclimate. I just make sure the salinity is within .001, and after floating the bag, just put the fish in. Works as well or better than drip acclimating. Acclimation or not, a fish going from 1.020 to 1.026 in a half hour is rough on their system.