Fish dying slowly one by one - ich?

[Oceanguyjamie]

I am posting this thread and confessing to my stupidity. I am doing this in the hope that I can spare someone else from making the mistakes I made. Or perhaps someone will have some sage advice for me. I hope that advice isn't "get out of the hobby you are marine terrorist," though right now I feel I deserve that.

I have successfully had a beautiful amazing tank for over a year now. Photo attached.

But over the course of a week I sadly have lost almost every single fish in my tank. I chalk it up to an irresponsible decision I made to introduce a Porcupine Puffer last Sunday. But it is possible that had nothing do with it, or everything to do with it. In any event, I am providing you with as much detail so perhaps I can spare others from making the same mistakes.

If I have learned one thing from this, it is definitely something I read sometime ago, maybe you even said it but something along the lines of "a marine aquarium is an incredibly fragile ecosystem than can crash at any moment."

Mine did this week and I am baffled as to why.

In any event, everything was going very well in my tank. I had a major green hair algae outbreak a couple months ago. Persistence and determination and deep cleaning cured it finally and my tank has been free of the pesky stuff for a couple months now. My water parameters have also been perfect for several months, nitrates and phosphates low, water crystal clear, everything perfect, or so one would assume.

But Sunday I bought a new porcupine puffer. I have wanted one for quite some time and finally my aquarium store called me and said they had one that cleared their quarantine. They quarantine all new fish for three weeks in a quarantine tank treated with copper and I have never had an issue with any fish I have bought from them.

They had some concerns over the fact that I had a dwarf lion and a yellow longhorn boxfish also purchased from them, but advised me to keep an eye on them and if any issues bring him back.

I introduced him to the tank and all was well. No aggression, no issues, everyone seemed happy and seemed like they were getting along.

The next night (Monday) all of sudden I heard a sound at 2 AM. Of course I investigated and what to my wondering eyes did appear, Wanda, my box fish was sitting on my dogs couch. She apparently jumped from the tank and landed on his dog bed. Soft fall, but none the less. I quickly grabbed her and put her back in my tank. She seemed to be fine though stunned and dazed. After about an hour or so, she returned to being her old jovial self.

The next morning I woke up and found one of my butterfly tangs had died. A single incident but I questioned, remembering box fish can emit a toxin and I've read mixed reports on the internet to say they can wipe out your tank and others have said, never a problem. I figured if she had emitted a toxin because she was stressed it would have killed everything immediately.

Over the course of the next few days however, one by one, at a rate of 2-3 per day, I began losing more and more of my fish. Would go bed, everything seemed fine, to wake up with them dead at the bottom of the tank.

I moved Wanda (my boxfish) to my quarantine tank, did a 50% water change and carbon change and hoped that would take care of it.

Not so. Yesterday my lion fish and my porcupine puffer both died. I noticed over the course of the week that the eyes on many of my fish in the tank clouded over. In addition, white spots were forming on all my fish. Very rapidly over the course of this past week completely covering most of the fish in my tank.

Ich?

Now my blue tang and a couple other fish are exhibiting signs of dying. It looks like I am going to lose every fish in my tank.

I am baffled. But have a theory I am sending your way to see if anyone thinks it has any merit.

I can only surmise: the introduction of the porcupine puffer stressed my box fish. She released her deadly "nightshade" after making a suicidal leap and surviving by me putting her right back. I think this may have weakened and stressed the fish in the tank, those that it didn't immediately kill. (found 1-2 dead the next morning). In their stressed state, ich propagated, rapidly, killing them one by one over the course of a week. Have read that stress can cause this, but can ich be deadly in a matter of days?

Is there any merit to that theory? Curious if any of you have any thoughts. Is something else possibly going on?

Lesson learned: "When everything is stable, don't change it. Don't mix incompatible fish. And lastly, Jamie, you have a lot still to learn if you are going to be successful at this hobby."

It is heart wrenching. I value life, all life, and it kills me to think my decisions may have wiped out my entire collection of fish.

On a positive note, my corals and my tank have never looked better. But one by one, I am losing all my fish and don't know why?

Feel free to tear me apart or offer your two cents. Either way I am all ears and open. I don't want this to happen again. At this point going to try to move the few remaining fish I have to a quarantine tank and treat with copper. Not sure if it is too late or that's the answer, but willing to try.

[d-man]

Ich itself doesnt kill fish. It will stress them out which will allow other problems to arise. Now there are some theories of different strains of ich though.
My guess is velvet. U didn't QT the puffer and introduced velvet into the tank, which is extremely deadly. Many times over it will and has wiped out entire tanks full of livestock, including my own at one point.
Now you will have to stay fish free for 3 months to be safe all will die.
2nd, if you don't QT you risk reintroduction. At least QT with observation in a sperate tank from now on. Therefore if the new addition does have velvet it will not wipe out the other fish. Some fish, like puffers cannot tolerate copper, but I am unsure of cupramine.
Sorry for your loss, but as you stated, you confessed your stupity. Which at one point or another, either with velvet, AEFW, monti eating nudis, red bugs or other, we have all made the mistake. Just learn, progress and cross your fingers

[OrQidz]

I think you know why the fish are dying - or at least your assessment of the situation seems appropriate. Don't beat yourself up. You made a mistake, a very costly one, but you were taking a risk with not QT'ing and having a boxfish which are known to wipe out tanks. I think your plan is good, remove the fish, treat them, hopefully save a few...let the tank go fallow and start up again when it's ready.

Honestly, you are distressed by the situation and can see your mistakes and want to learn from them. That's more than some people can manage so don't be too hard on yourself!

[Bent]

I was always under the impression that crypto could actually kill the fish by suffocating it.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by Bent

I was always under the impression that crypto could actually kill the fish by suffocating it.

Not in the short run; it can eventually over whelm fish, however. Mortality time line is not definitive.

[Martini5788]

If you have another fish die, place the body in freshwater and see if any flukes come out. Puffers are loaded with parasites. How many times was the porky treated with prazi before being introduced into the display? Do you have any
Pictures of the fish? I was under the impression that boxfish toxin will also kill corals, so the fact that those are still fine is a little confusing. I think the differential will be ick, velvet, flukes. The cloudy eyes makes me worry about flukes. Could also be from the boxfish toxin. Either way, I am very sorry. That's a very hard experience.

[oseymour]

I'm sorry to hear, I've that certain boxfish can release a toxin that can wipe out a tank really quick. I think that's what happened to you.

[ca1ore]

Progression of fish losses doesn't sound like poisoning to me. Agree with an earlier post on velvet, though a picture of an afflicted fish would help with diagnosis. I think you will find a lot of threads here on RC suggesting that LFS quarantine is unlikely to be effective. That fish bought prior were fine has no bearing really. I always use the analogy to playing in traffic. That one does it without getting hurt does not mean it's a sensible thing to do. If you have a QT system, use it. If you don't have a QT system, get one!

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Progression of fish losses doesn't sound like poisoning to me. Agree with an earlier post on velvet, though a picture of an afflicted fish would help with diagnosis. I think you will find a lot of threads here on RC suggesting that LFS quarantine is unlikely to be effective. That fish bought prior were fine has no bearing really. I always use the analogy to playing in traffic. That one does it without getting hurt does not mean it's a sensible thing to do. If you have a QT system, use it. If you don't have a QT system, get one!

I agree mostly. No LFS properly quarantines.

[Oceanguyjamie]

Was able to get a scraping and my aquarium store indicated it was velvet. See photos attached. Unreal how quickly it took. In under a week I've lost 90 percent of my fish. Last night my beautiful longhorn cow died. Today it will be my hippo tang. The puffer died during the week. I post this for all, if your fish start slowly dying one by one. It likely is velvet ich. Still uncertain how we got it. The puffer was in copper quarantine at my aquarium dealer for 4 weeks. My guess is it was present in the tank and introducing the puffer caused stress weakening the immune system of the fish and once infected it went downhill from there. Also one side not my hippo apparently has head and line lateral disease. Likely from overdosing of carbon. I run carbon heavily because I've read it's a good thing on tanks with a heavy bio load. Have also read you can't overdose carbon. Those articles are wrong. So we conclude after all this. I have a lot to still learn. Hope somebody benefits from my mistakes. I feel so terrible. Putting remaining fish in quarantine and copper. Likely too late to save them. Then it is 3 months of a fish less tank to try and get things back to some level of stability when I try again. Learned a lot from this. Don't make the same mistakes I made.

[Nina51]

Originally Posted by Oceanguyjamie

The puffer was in copper quarantine at my aquarium dealer for 4 weeks.

many places run low level copper in their tanks to ward off symptoms of the disease. unless the fish was qt'ed at the proper dose for the proper length of time, it might as well have not been treated at all.

so sorry for your losses. it's a hard lesson to learn and most people don't learn until a situation such as yours. i have qt'ed every fish that has gone into my tank and done ttm/observation for weeks before it went into my dt. patience is the key. moving too fast is almost always a recipe for disaster.

[Martini5788]

Originally Posted by Oceanguyjamie

Was able to get a scraping and my aquarium store indicated it was velvet. See photos attached. Unreal how quickly it took. In under a week I've lost 90 percent of my fish. Last night my beautiful longhorn cow died. Today it will be my hippo tang. The puffer died during the week. I post this for all, if your fish start slowly dying one by one. It likely is velvet ich. Still uncertain how we got it. The puffer was in copper quarantine at my aquarium dealer for 4 weeks. My guess is it was present in the tank and introducing the puffer caused stress weakening the immune system of the fish and once infected it went downhill from there. Also one side not my hippo apparently has head and line lateral disease. Likely from overdosing of carbon. I run carbon heavily because I've read it's a good thing on tanks with a heavy bio load. Have also read you can't overdose carbon. Those articles are wrong. So we conclude after all this. I have a lot to still learn. Hope somebody benefits from my mistakes. I feel so terrible. Putting remaining fish in quarantine and copper. Likely too late to save them. Then it is 3 months of a fish less tank to try and get things back to some level of stability when I try again. Learned a lot from this. Don't make the same mistakes I made.

If you have chloroquine phosphate you might. It's called ick shield powder and I was able to save several fish with it last summer. It's a med that I will always keep on hand no matter what after that experience. Very sorry for your loss.

[ca1ore]

That sounds about right, bummer though. Velvet makes ich seem like the proverbial walk in the park. I've had it a couple of times in QT (fish died), but never in the display thankfully. In fact, I've caught velvet twice, ich a dozen times or so, uronema at least once and flukes a few times in QT. Perhaps explains why I'm such a stickler for it .

[CStrickland]

Kind of a moot point now, but I thought puffers don't tolerate copper at the proper dose. Anybody know if that's just a rumor?
Would make sense like if the lfs was running a low enough dose that the puffer did ok with it, that it wasn't enough to kill the disease.

Sorry you had to learn all this the hardest way
Next time will be better

[Martini5788]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

Kind of a moot point now, but I thought puffers don't tolerate copper at the proper dose. Anybody know if that's just a rumor?
Would make sense like if the lfs was running a low enough dose that the puffer did ok with it, that it wasn't enough to kill the disease.

Sorry you had to learn all this the hardest way
Next time will be better

This is true about puffers and copper.

[Oceanguyjamie]

I have heard the same about copper and puffers, however I do want to emphasize a couple things. Many replies on how I should have quarantined the puffer. But the reality is, fish started dying less than 24 hours after the puffer was introduced. So I have to say, don't think my aquarium store is at fault. I don't think velvet could attack and kill that quickly. I am guessing the ice was present before and it was just bad timing that it all went down hill after the puffer was introduced. Has anyone had that fast of a velvet outbreak, less than 24 hours, after introducing a new fish?

Regarding copper and puffers, I learned he was actually in quarantine for 5 weeks in copper before I bought him. This is standard practice for the store I buy my fish from. It did not harm him so not sure copper is harmful. They do this with all their fish.

In addition, there are still many fish that were in the same tank at the store when I went back one week after to get a microscopic diagnosis of one of my fish. No issues with any of the other fish in the QT at the store. I am fairly certain if this was the cause, all the fish in the stores' QT would have been dead as well.

It had to come in some other way. But I will also say, insane how quickly it wiped out my entire tank. And the death was unbearable. Had to watch my fish one by one, lay on their side, respiration excessive and slowly asphyxiate. A couple times I thought of pulling them out and dropping them in boiling water. Such a horrible way to go.

Below is a photo as seen under a microscope confirming velvet, the large round circular cell in the photo.

[Martini5788]

Originally Posted by Oceanguyjamie

I have heard the same about copper and puffers, however I do want to emphasize a couple things. Many replies on how I should have quarantined the puffer. But the reality is, fish started dying less than 24 hours after the puffer was introduced. So I have to say, don't think my aquarium store is at fault. I don't think velvet could attack and kill that quickly. I am guessing the ice was present before and it was just bad timing that it all went down hill after the puffer was introduced. Has anyone had that fast of a velvet outbreak, less than 24 hours, after introducing a new fish?



Regarding copper and puffers, I learned he was actually in quarantine for 5 weeks in copper before I bought him. This is standard practice for the store I buy my fish from. It did not harm him so not sure copper is harmful. They do this with all their fish.



In addition, there are still many fish that were in the same tank at the store when I went back one week after to get a microscopic diagnosis of one of my fish. No issues with any of the other fish in the QT at the store. I am fairly certain if this was the cause, all the fish in the stores' QT would have been dead as well.



It had to come in some other way. But I will also say, insane how quickly it wiped out my entire tank. And the death was unbearable. Had to watch my fish one by one, lay on their side, respiration excessive and slowly asphyxiate. A couple times I thought of pulling them out and dropping them in boiling water. Such a horrible way to go.



Below is a photo as seen under a microscope confirming velvet, the large round circular cell in the photo.

Velvet is a completely separate organism than ich. Velvet will kill that fast. Copper is toxic to puffers. Your fish store probably doesn't keep the copper at therapeutic levels and was able to keep the velvet from spreading and can mask it, but when introduced into your tank with no copper, the population exploded and killed everything off. Puffers can tolerate lower levels of copper for some time, but at the dose to actually eradicate ich and velvet, it is normally fatal.