Oceanic Reef Setup - a bio balls question...

[MarsRover]

All,



I have recently acquired a used Oceanic ~40 Gal reef ready setup with a ~10-15 gal reef ready sump.



I ran it for about a week with vinegar (4.5 gals) and fresh water, scrubbed and rinsed thoroughly, ran with fresh water and drained yesterday.



Filled it with saltwater last night and about 20lbs of live rock. Going to add some aragonite sand tonight and possibly pick up some more live rock today.



My question now is with Bio balls. I have read peoples opinions about them starting a "nitrate factory" but i have also read, and am more inclined to believe, that they generally tend to do this if detritus gets entrapped in the bioballs.



I'd like to keep the bio balls out of the sump and convert it into a refugium with cheato and LR. Attached is a picture of my sump setup with the bioball box empty.



I think the additional surface area of bioballs is still beneficial if used properly however. So here's what i'm thinking:



Why not toss the bioballs into the overflow box? Making it more of a wet/dry filter? Also the turbulent flow over the bioballs will prevent detritus from getting stuck?



One concern i had was it might plug the drain hole so i plunked one in there (fits perfectly.............) and added a few more back there to float around for solidarity and i am currently awaiting any filling up of the over flow box (been about 10 minutes now and nothing noticeable yet).



I'm thinking about getting some eggcrate and putting a platform at the just above the level of the drain hole. I think this will further reduce the likely hood of a nitrate factory and in a way produce a wet/dry filter. Additionally i'll be adding a mechanical filter sponge to pre filter the water after it pours over the over flow, prior to it reaching the balls.



This all serves the added benefit of quieting the slosh noise as the water pours over into the box.





Thoughts??



Thanks!

[thegrun]

The problem with bioballs beyond trapping detritus is that they are too efficient at converting ammonia to nitrates, especially when used in a wet/dry application. With live rock you get some denitrifing bacteria to help limit the amount of nitrates at the end of the cycle. With bio balls you have no denitrifing bacteria and thus end up with higher nitrates. I would not use the bio balls (in fact I thew all the old ones I had years ago).

[Dogshowgrl]

If you use bio balls I am going to recommend you put them in three mesh bags so you can pull one bag out every few months to rinse out and not lose all of your bacteria by washing all of them. I don't run bio balls, I like the media blocks they tend to trap less and have more surface area and if you have room for the large block it has all the perks of a deep sand bed with out stress of a rock fall BC it's protected in the sump. I have seen bio balls run on beautiful successful tanks I just think they are more work than they are worth, but if you are more comfortable with them use them. I would not put them in my overflows though, if something happens they would a pain to work with and keep an eye on, and if a cuc or fish gets in there it would be a serious endeavor to recover.

[Luke Schnabel]

I have the media balls in my sump and they are doing great. Zero nitrates thus far.

[CStrickland]

IDK why people think they need more surface area in their tanks.

Is the idea that the rock gets "full" of bacteria and no more can grow there? I've never seen any indication that this is the case. I kinda think that if it were, the rocks would be covered in slimy floc like when you overdose carbon and have a bacteria bloom.

IMO these products are a solution looking for a problem, and they do more harm than good.


@OP the "turbulence" interferes with the proper balance of bacteria, inhibiting denitrification, That's why most don't use wet/drys anymore.

[Reef Frog]

Even modest amounts of live rock and sand can host all the bacteria you will ever need. Bacteria will also grow on filter pads, media and every other surface in the aquarium. Of course maximum efficiency takes a while to achieve as the tank matures.

Personally I wouldn't want to block an overflow in any way. It sounds like that could go wrong some day.

[MarsRover]

Thanks for the helpful replys everyone. Confirmed some suspicions i had.

Originally Posted by thegrun

The problem with bioballs beyond trapping detritus is that they are too efficient at converting ammonia to nitrates, especially when used in a wet/dry application. With live rock you get some denitrifing bacteria to help limit the amount of nitrates at the end of the cycle. With bio balls you have no denitrifing bacteria and thus end up with higher nitrates. I would not use the bio balls (in fact I thew all the old ones I had years ago).

So, i am definitely having liverock, no question. Both in my Display and in my refugium/sump. I presently have quite a bit of LR in my tank (see image attached. Not reef-scaped yet, just dumped in there for the cycleing.

Part of my motivation for optimizing the use of the limited sump space by utilizing the massive overflow area for bioballs and mechanical (sponge) filtration is to maximize filtration for the overall system.

Originally Posted by CStrickland

IDK why people think they need more surface area in their tanks.

Is the idea that the rock gets "full" of bacteria and no more can grow there? I've never seen any indication that this is the case. I kinda think that if it were, the rocks would be covered in slimy floc like when you overdose carbon and have a bacteria bloom.

IMO these products are a solution looking for a problem, and they do more harm than good.


@OP the "turbulence" interferes with the proper balance of bacteria, inhibiting denitrification, That's why most don't use wet/drys anymore.

I think the idea is [more surface area] = [more bacteria] and that can never be a bad thing and bioballs are "supposed to be" a solution that attempts to maximize surface area vs volume and mass.

Originally Posted by Reef Frog

Personally I wouldn't want to block an overflow in any way. It sounds like that could go wrong some day.

As for "blocking the overflow", i have instituted some egg-crate to prevent anything from blocking the overflow tube. (see attached image)

Presently there are about 30 bioballs on top of this eggcrate, with another layer of eggcrate on top. I think i might go ahead and remove the bioballs all together. Debating if i want to replace the bioballs with media in a bag.

I'm going to have some mechanical filtering sponges at the top of the filter stack in the overflow to slow the flow as it drops down to the drain, I suspect this will aid in preventing

Originally Posted by CStrickland

@OP the "turbulence" interferes with the proper balance of bacteria, inhibiting denitrification, That's why most don't use wet/drys anymore.

which i assume is still an issue with porous media... no?


Lastly, what do you all think about keeping cheato in the sump (i guess that then it becomes a refuge once i add cheato and a light) in the bioballs basket (which is now empty since the bioballs aren't in there....) again, trying to maximize the utilization of the limited space. Perhaps even throw some smaller pieces of LR in the bottom of the basket, then top with cheato. Thinking this allows a way for me to "shake" the LR every once in a while and dislodge any detritus that may have gotten down there, and it leaves the small section between the basket and the odd, flow/sponge/filter thing (i don't know what to call it..... i guess this keeps media etc from coming into the area with the return pump) for other things ..... comments?

Thanks folks

[CStrickland]

the issue with trying to maximize space this way is that by cluttering it up you provide a place for detritus to accumulate in a turbulent area. Because the denitrifying bacteria cannot populate that space you wind up with an unbalanced system. The nitrogen cycle is halted at nitrates, rather than completing to nitrous oxide gas, and the nitrates fuel algae and irritate inverts. Your bacteria population is determined by the food available to it. Left to its own devices it will grow denitrifiers right underneath the nitrifying bacteria in the DT Rock and sand and on the glass etc, and keep the water clean. By tweaking it, that process is disrupted in a way that is detrimental to the system. This is why filter sponges and bioballs are called "nitrate factories"

In the early years of the hobby a lot of people were using wet dry setups because they were so successful for freshwater tanks. they stopped doing that because nitrates were too difficult to control. But still, the folks that sell bioballs and media bags and other stuff you can fill up your sump with persist in touting the benefits. In fact, this products more often create a problem than solve one by encouraging people to maximize space.

The benefits of a sump are: a place to keep unsightly equipment, increased water volume to dilute pollution, and if desired a refugium to culture live food for predators. A nice clean sump can add a lot to a reef tank, a dirty one does not. Since a cluttered sump traps extra detritus and is difficult to clean, it tends to be a net loss.

[MarsRover]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

the issue with trying to maximize space this way is that by cluttering it up you provide a place for detritus to accumulate in a turbulent area. Because the denitrifying bacteria cannot populate that space you wind up with an unbalanced system. The nitrogen cycle is halted at nitrates, rather than completing to nitrous oxide gas, and the nitrates fuel algae and irritate inverts. Your bacteria population is determined by the food available to it. Left to its own devices it will grow denitrifiers right underneath the nitrifying bacteria in the DT Rock and sand and on the glass etc, and keep the water clean. By tweaking it, that process is disrupted in a way that is detrimental to the system. This is why filter sponges and bioballs are called "nitrate factories"

In the early years of the hobby a lot of people were using wet dry setups because they were so successful for freshwater tanks. they stopped doing that because nitrates were too difficult to control. But still, the folks that sell bioballs and media bags and other stuff you can fill up your sump with persist in touting the benefits. In fact, this products more often create a problem than solve one by encouraging people to maximize space.

The benefits of a sump are: a place to keep unsightly equipment, increased water volume to dilute pollution, and if desired a refugium to culture live food for predators. A nice clean sump can add a lot to a reef tank, a dirty one does not. Since a cluttered sump traps extra detritus and is difficult to clean, it tends to be a net loss.

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense.

So then do you recommend not having any sponges for filtering macro-detritus at all? just let it all flow through the system and get picked up by inverts that eat it?

What do you all do to keep your overflow from being so darn noisy! when water plummets over into the overflow box it hits the bottom, and any water down in there, and makes quite a lot of noise.

[CStrickland]

I do use mechanical filtration. I have a bunch of filter socks so I can pop a new one on every other day, that way I don't have stuff collecting in it and rotting. I soak them in bleach and wash in hot water when I get to the last one. I like it cause it won't restrict flow as it clogs, and I was able to sew up a bunch myself for like $12 and it's easy to switch. The easier maintenance is the more apt I am to actually do it
But some people do just let stuff fly around until it gets broken down by the tanks ecosystem. Other people build in "settling areas" for detritus to land in where the water moves slow and be vacuumed out. Etc etc.

Is your drain just on the floor of the overflow? That will be noisy. There are a few standpipe designs that can help a lot. Try googling "stockman" "durso" and "herbie" drains. I use a herbie design and like it a lot, but from your pics it looks like you'd have to switch your return to come over the rim of the tank, since it needs two pipes. Sorry I missed that the first time around, I wasn't looking for it but instead picturing a diff design.