Dual return pump?

roostertech · 05/17/2016, 12:45 PM

I'm thinking about running two smaller return pumps instead of one big one to minimize risk of pump failure. Would a simple T back into return pipe do the trick?

JammyBirch · 05/17/2016, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roostertech

I'm thinking about running two smaller return pumps instead of one big one to minimize risk of pump failure. Would a simple T back into return pipe do the trick?

couldn't you just have a back up in case of a failure? Personally I think an assembly of pipe and two return pumps could be noisy and a pain to fix. The other thing to consider is if one pump fails the remaining pump could provide flow out of the dead pump...since it won't require lifting the water that dead pump could become the path of least resistance, unless you put in a check valve...

Is there a particular reason you're worried about a failure?

billdogg · 05/17/2016, 12:47 PM

IMHO, no. They will be fighting each other. If one does fail, the water will take the path of least resistance and go right back into the sump through the dead pump. Way better to get one properly sized pump and stay on top of maintenance, or get two and keep one as a spare.

GimpyFin · 05/17/2016, 12:52 PM

+1. I'd just keep a spare on hand rather than trying to hook up two.

Greybeard · 05/17/2016, 01:07 PM

Redundancy is good, but honestly, buy a good quality return pump, and it'll last you a long, long time. I've got a mag 1200 that I bought like 20 years ago that still powers the water slide on my swimming pool. I replaced the impeller once, about 10 years back.

If you do decide to go with two return pumps, I suggest that you plumb them independently. T'ing them together just adds complexity that you really don't need. You'd have to rely on anti-back flow valves on both sides of the 'T', which need to be serviced from time to time...

BlackTip · 05/17/2016, 01:12 PM

I have dual return pumps. Each one is connected to it's own return pipe. They are working great. They are working in redundancy not as backup.

The other day, I took one out for cleaning, and I left the other running. You will get loud sounds while one is off, but that is normal.

roostertech · 05/17/2016, 01:56 PM

I'm trying to cover all the case of possible catastrophe and return pump failing would be on the list. I would hate to go on vacation and come back to a dead tank because the pump somehow failed.

As for quality pump, what would be a reliable pump that is apex compatible. I like the M1 but it doesn't play nice with Apex.

SFish · 05/17/2016, 02:13 PM

The M1 doesn't need apex it has its own system. Would an Eheim work with Apex? As for running two pumps I think that's a waste of energy and unnecessary. Also a waste of money. Nothing is full proof. To be honest I'd worry more about a heater going out then a good return pump. Also T ing the outputs together would add friction to both pumps and you have no way to tune them. I would think they would run like crap.

roostertech · 05/17/2016, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFish

The M1 doesn't need apex it has its own system. Would an Eheim work with Apex? As for running two pumps I think that's a waste of energy and unnecessary. Also a waste of money. Nothing is full proof. To be honest I'd worry more about a heater going out then a good return pump. Also T ing the outputs together would add friction to both pumps and you have no way to tune them. I would think they would run like crap.

I would have gone with M1 if I were to go with Vortech to have all pump control in one spot. But I can't use Vortech because of toddlers in the house, that dry side sticking out of the tank will get yanked off soon enough.

Also I want to use DC pump which really limit my options:
- Ecotech M1 : doesn't play nice with Apex
- Waveline DC : apex ready, but reviews look like trash
- Jebao: cheap and reviews sound good, play nice with Apex if you get the older version, but I do believe you get what you pay for
- Reef Octopus VarioS-x: less popular pump? Apex supported, looks solid. I might end up going with this.
- Neptune COR: ???? no info yet, if WAV is any indication, they will have reliability issue to iron out.

SFish · 05/18/2016, 02:00 AM

What are trying to do with the return pump? Why does it need to be on the apex? Normally that pump just runs.

kmbyrnes · 05/18/2016, 04:42 AM

Pumps Tee'd together won't work. They need to be on separate return lines or water will just take the path of least resistance.
When I switched to energy efficient DC pumps, I made sure that all the tanks are plumbed the same where the pumps join the return line.
I have the 2 old energy hungry pumps that can be dropped into place in a couple of minutes if needed in an emergency.

homer1475 · 05/18/2016, 03:22 PM

I don't know what reviews you read, but the waveline was highly recommended to me when I wanted to switch to a DC pump that was apex compatible. I saw mostly positive reviews on the wavline brand. The waveline is apex ready not just compatible. Mine runs great with no noise, just a slight humming.

Any pump is apex compatible if all you want is simple on/off cycles. The wavleine being apex ready just allows for apex to control the output(not just simple on/off cycles) rather then its own controller.

roostertech · 05/18/2016, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFish

What are trying to do with the return pump? Why does it need to be on the apex? Normally that pump just runs.

* To have a unified feed/maintenance mode
* To have different flow rate throughout the day

As for the review, I looked at the DC6000 and DC2500 on BRS

thegrun · 05/18/2016, 08:17 PM

If you want a bullet proof field tested pump with many running for over 20 years get an Eheim hobby pump. Not quite as energy efficient as the DC pumps but close. 5 or 10 years from now we will see which DC pumps withstood the test of time, but if you want a reliable efficient quiet pump an Eheim 1260 or 1262 would be my recommendation. Plug it into your Apex and forget about it.

roostertech · 05/19/2016, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegrun

If you want a bullet proof field tested pump with many running for over 20 years get an Eheim hobby pump. Not quite as energy efficient as the DC pumps but close. 5 or 10 years from now we will see which DC pumps withstood the test of time, but if you want a reliable efficient quiet pump an Eheim 1260 or 1262 would be my recommendation. Plug it into your Apex and forget about it.

Eheim 1262 takes 80w to pump 900gph
Waveline dc6000 takes 48w to pump 1585gph

So I think in term of efficiency the gap is quite huge. I agree that the jury is still out on reliability of DC pump. Would AC pump stand up well against being turned off and on multiple times a day for feeding?

SFish · 05/19/2016, 07:47 AM

Feed mode is nice but not necessary. There is no real reason to have the return pump have a different flow rate through out the day that's what power heads are for. All your doing with the return pump is moving water through your filter.

thegrun · 05/19/2016, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roostertech

Eheim 1262 takes 80w to pump 900gph
Waveline dc6000 takes 48w to pump 1585gph

So I think in term of efficiency the gap is quite huge. I agree that the jury is still out on reliability of DC pump. Would AC pump stand up well against being turned off and on multiple times a day for feeding?

Agreed there is a gap but you forgot to include the wattage the power converter uses in your total (about 10 watts).

HippieSmell · 07/08/2016, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmbyrnes

Pumps Tee'd together won't work. They need to be on separate return lines or water will just take the path of least resistance.
When I switched to energy efficient DC pumps, I made sure that all the tanks are plumbed the same where the pumps join the return line.
I have the 2 old energy hungry pumps that can be dropped into place in a couple of minutes if needed in an emergency.

Nah, you can. The pump manufacturer might not recommend it, but some do. Plumbed in parallel you'll get more flow. Plumbed in series you'll get more pressure.

05/17/2016, 12:45 PM	#1
roostertech Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 148	Dual return pump? I'm thinking about running two smaller return pumps instead of one big one to minimize risk of pump failure. Would a simple T back into return pipe do the trick?

05/17/2016, 12:47 PM	#3
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	IMHO, no. They will be fighting each other. If one does fail, the water will take the path of least resistance and go right back into the sump through the dead pump. Way better to get one properly sized pump and stay on top of maintenance, or get two and keep one as a spare. __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

05/17/2016, 12:52 PM	#4
GimpyFin Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 2,032	+1. I'd just keep a spare on hand rather than trying to hook up two. __________________ Brian Current Tank Info: 110 gallon

05/17/2016, 01:12 PM	#6
BlackTip Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 1,598	I have dual return pumps. Each one is connected to it's own return pipe. They are working great. They are working in redundancy not as backup. The other day, I took one out for cleaning, and I left the other running. You will get loud sounds while one is off, but that is normal. __________________ 325G DT. 100G sump. In-sump refugium. SRO-5000SSS. 2 Gyres 150. 2 Water Blaster HY-5000. 2 Razor 320W. Apex Gold. MR2 GFO. 2 800W Heaters. Tunze Osmolater. 2 20g-long QT tanks. Geo 624 CA. 80W UV

05/17/2016, 02:13 PM	#8
SFish Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,062	The M1 doesn't need apex it has its own system. Would an Eheim work with Apex? As for running two pumps I think that's a waste of energy and unnecessary. Also a waste of money. Nothing is full proof. To be honest I'd worry more about a heater going out then a good return pump. Also T ing the outputs together would add friction to both pumps and you have no way to tune them. I would think they would run like crap. Last edited by SFish; 05/17/2016 at 02:33 PM.

05/17/2016, 01:07 PM	#5
Greybeard Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Buffalo, MO Posts: 651	Redundancy is good, but honestly, buy a good quality return pump, and it'll last you a long, long time. I've got a mag 1200 that I bought like 20 years ago that still powers the water slide on my swimming pool. I replaced the impeller once, about 10 years back. If you do decide to go with two return pumps, I suggest that you plumb them independently. T'ing them together just adds complexity that you really don't need. You'd have to rely on anti-back flow valves on both sides of the 'T', which need to be serviced from time to time...

05/17/2016, 01:56 PM	#7
roostertech Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 148	I'm trying to cover all the case of possible catastrophe and return pump failing would be on the list. I would hate to go on vacation and come back to a dead tank because the pump somehow failed. As for quality pump, what would be a reliable pump that is apex compatible. I like the M1 but it doesn't play nice with Apex.

05/18/2016, 02:00 AM	#10
SFish Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,062	What are trying to do with the return pump? Why does it need to be on the apex? Normally that pump just runs.

05/18/2016, 04:42 AM	#11
kmbyrnes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 2,055	Pumps Tee'd together won't work. They need to be on separate return lines or water will just take the path of least resistance. When I switched to energy efficient DC pumps, I made sure that all the tanks are plumbed the same where the pumps join the return line. I have the 2 old energy hungry pumps that can be dropped into place in a couple of minutes if needed in an emergency. __________________ 125g Mixed Reef 5/26/2015; 350 Butterfly Dominated FOWLR 11/26/2015 - 11/17/20217 & 07/31/18 to ??? ; 100g Mixed Reef 11/16/2013 to 06/16/2017 Current Tank Info: Too small

05/18/2016, 03:22 PM	#12
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	I don't know what reviews you read, but the waveline was highly recommended to me when I wanted to switch to a DC pump that was apex compatible. I saw mostly positive reviews on the wavline brand. The waveline is apex ready not just compatible. Mine runs great with no noise, just a slight humming. Any pump is apex compatible if all you want is simple on/off cycles. The wavleine being apex ready just allows for apex to control the output(not just simple on/off cycles) rather then its own controller. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

05/18/2016, 08:17 PM	#14
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	If you want a bullet proof field tested pump with many running for over 20 years get an Eheim hobby pump. Not quite as energy efficient as the DC pumps but close. 5 or 10 years from now we will see which DC pumps withstood the test of time, but if you want a reliable efficient quiet pump an Eheim 1260 or 1262 would be my recommendation. Plug it into your Apex and forget about it.

05/19/2016, 07:47 AM	#16
SFish Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 2,062	Feed mode is nice but not necessary. There is no real reason to have the return pump have a different flow rate through out the day that's what power heads are for. All your doing with the return pump is moving water through your filter.