TANK URGENT HELP PLEASE Flooding

HidingReefer · 08/01/2016, 05:49 AM

Hey guys, i am in a lot of trouble right now. So in the past two days ive changed up the plumbing in my reef tank, I added a ball valve to my tank, so that water doesnt drain from my display tank when i turn off my return pump. I also added a bunch of live rock rubble to my sump. Now its 4 am where im at and i went to go check on the tank after the new changes and im glas i did because the water level in my display tank was dangerously high. Almost close to spilling over. I started freaking out. Every since i added the new plumbing the display tank's water level has gone up, but never this high. I looked in my sump and the water level kept dropping. Soon water started spilling out of my main system. This is when I lost it. I turned off the return pump and closed the valve. The water level in my display tank is completely full still, and my sump is still completely full with water. Im freaking out right now, can some one help. My only idea is to siphon water from the main display, this has never happened before, any help would be appreciated
Thanks

HidingReefer · 08/01/2016, 05:53 AM

Also feel free to ask any questions, i' am gonna be here all morning, I am new at reefing so this is really freaking me out

MorganAtlanta · 08/01/2016, 05:59 AM

Is something plugging up your drain? Is your return pump too powerful for your drain to handle the flow?

Where did you put the ball valve? On the return or on the drain?

Did you remove a corresponding volume of water to what you added in rubble?

HidingReefer · 08/01/2016, 06:04 AM

I do not think the return pump is too strong ive been using it ever since the tanks been, up, its only after I added the new plumbing that the water in the DT rose almost to the top of the black overflow tower. Should I add a picture of what I did, again i'm new at this so what I did might be wrong

kmbyrnes · 08/01/2016, 06:06 AM

What are you using for an overflow - HOB or in tank?
Your sump level should be determined so that it can handle the residual water from the overflow and return until the siphon on the return breaks.
Why did you add the ball valve? This is restricting the flow from the tank to your sump. If you are seeing the water level in you DT rise and the level in your sump go down, this indicates that you are no longer draining as much water as you were prior to the changes. Open the ball valve wider, or remove it altogether and see if that helps.
How large a diameter is the drain line?
Pics might help.

kmbyrnes · 08/01/2016, 06:08 AM

Just saw your response.
What is the level of the drain line below the teeth of the overflow?
How far below the water level is the return line?

HidingReefer · 08/01/2016, 06:13 AM

I hope the picture showed up, but this what I did, the valve is completely open, this picture was taken before I added the rubble and before the tank started overflowing. However at this point the DT's water level did rise quite a bit. Enough to silence my silence my overflow.

HidingReefer · 08/01/2016, 06:19 AM

So I have two lines coming from my return pump into my DT, this is what you mean by return line I hope. Now while the DT was overflowing, the return lines, were approx. 4-5 inches under the water line, and yesterday they were 3 inches under roughly. Since i stopped my return pump now, the water in my DT dropped back down to what it was before I added the new plumbing. Before i added the new plumbing the return lines would sit a little above the water line

MorganAtlanta · 08/01/2016, 06:22 AM

You changed the capacity of your drain line with your changes in the plumbing. Did you also add the 90 degree elbow? It is quite possible you have air stuck in your drain line, which would reduce the flow. I would remove both the ball valve and the elbow.

In addition, I would never run a tank with a single drain line and no backup. You've seen the predictable result.

MorganAtlanta · 08/01/2016, 06:25 AM

Just looking at your picture again... is that ball valve the same internal diameter as the drain line before it? It looks smaller.

MiddletoM · 08/01/2016, 06:25 AM

as said before you aren't draining as fast as your return pump is filling.

You need to open the ballvalve more to drain the DT faster or turn down the return pump flow if its a DC pump!

Do you only have the 1 drain pipe from the DT to the sump? This is pretty risky as you are now finding out.

kmbyrnes · 08/01/2016, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorganAtlanta

You changed the capacity of your drain line with your changes in the plumbing. I would remove both the ball valve and the elbow.

This.

The ball valve is visibly smaller in diameter than the drain line. I can see you used a reducing bushing. Remove the whole thing and do some reading on setting sump levels to handle back siphon from your return. If you want to restrict your drain line, consider a gate valve instead.

HidingReefer · 08/01/2016, 06:35 AM

Thanks for all the advice guys, so my first step now should be to take the plumbing apart? Lucky me I still kept the old pipe. Now that you guys mention it yes this was all my fault. I didn't even realize that my new PVC pipes were smaller, and yes MorganAtlanta since you mention it ya the ball valve is smaller than the pipe before it. So since there is excess water in my system should I siphon that first then start working, and when I turn everything on again, I can add water if I need too. And yes in the future I will definitely keep a backup, I couldn't imagine what it would have felt like waking up to a flooded living room. If you guys could help me out with the next step that would be great thank you so much for all of your help!

MorganAtlanta · 08/01/2016, 06:45 AM

Put the old pipe back on. Do not reduce the size of your drain line below what the size of the bulkhead is. Just keep the water level in your sump such that it will not overflow when you cut off power.

There is no need for a ball valve on the drain. Valves on drains are only useful when you have multiple drain lines and are trying to tune the capacity of one so that it always runs at full siphon as in a Herbie or BeanAnimal setup.

If you want to reduce back flow into your sump when the power is cut off, you can add a check valve on your return line, but you still need to keep your sump level able to handle the full amount of water as if the check valve was not there, because eventually it will fail.

HidingReefer · 08/01/2016, 06:59 AM

Alright I think I am going to do just that, next time i am definitely going to do my research before jumping into something like this
Again can't thank you guys enough, you were very quick to respond, and pretty much saved me from a disaster at 4 am (cali time).

splix · 08/01/2016, 07:04 AM

If you want a ball valve on your drain, thats fine. I have them, but they're for siphon tuning purposes.
The whole issue with your tank now is that 90 elbow as well as the adapter going from 1" to 3/4". Never ever ever put a 90 on your drain!!! Drains are gravity fed and a 90 drastically reduces the flow, even more so if it's not pressurized like a return pump would be. I'm betting the max flow through that drain line is around 200 gph with the ball valve and the 90.

Based on your pic, slide the sump over if you can. That will make a huge difference in drain speed if you can have everything just drop straight down. If you cant...plumbing with a ball valve should be: (all 1") 45 street fitting, to 2" long piece of pvc, street fit both sides ball valve, pvc leaving ball valve long enough to bring the end to the drain, then do another 45 street to angle it vertically down into your sump. You can then add another couple inch long pvc to attach the corrugated line into your sump.

The rule is that the drain should be able to easily overpower your return and you use the ball valve to tune the drain back so you dont get gurgling in the siphon. While tuning the valve, once the water goes silent but looks like it's boiling from the top your set. If it's not "boiling" your drain is too slow and you'll have the same issue as tonight.

fishgate · 08/01/2016, 07:41 AM

Do you have an ATO? If so, it sounds like it kept filling the tank as well as it was dumping into the display tank accounting for the extra system volume. Probably should check your salinity.

Grayhead · 08/01/2016, 08:28 AM

Before you attempt to tackle the plumbing again, I would consult some of the knowledgeable folks here. Some things that need to be determined for others to help.
Tank and sump size.
Type of drain you are looking to achieve ( Herbie, duros, bean animal for example)
Distance from display to sump, also any obstructions you are working thru
Size of return pump

Plumbing drains have many options as shown above. An emergency drain is critical for most applications. Don't feel bad about seeking advise.

SNAKEMANVET · 08/01/2016, 08:30 AM

I remove the 90 and ball valve on your drain.You can put a ball valve on your retun line to help control the flow rate of the pump.

steallife904 · 08/01/2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SNAKEMANVET

I remove the 90 and ball valve on your drain.You can put a ball valve on your retun line to help control the flow rate of the pump.

do this!

pretty much what everyone else said, you slowed the drain down slower than the return is pumping water in.

amcvay1979 · 08/01/2016, 09:15 AM

I use a gate valve on my drain and a ball valve on my return in case I need to custom tune the output/flow of either. I have both of them wide open and then I added a check valve on the return that just failed last week after over a year in service. Took it off, cleaned it out and it's working fine. Just need to clean it every 6 months or so. That's about as fool proof as you can make it so you won't overflow your tank, or your sump. But like anything, failure will eventually happen and all you can do is prepare and take precautions.

08/01/2016, 05:49 AM	#1
HidingReefer Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 259	TANK URGENT HELP PLEASE Flooding Hey guys, i am in a lot of trouble right now. So in the past two days ive changed up the plumbing in my reef tank, I added a ball valve to my tank, so that water doesnt drain from my display tank when i turn off my return pump. I also added a bunch of live rock rubble to my sump. Now its 4 am where im at and i went to go check on the tank after the new changes and im glas i did because the water level in my display tank was dangerously high. Almost close to spilling over. I started freaking out. Every since i added the new plumbing the display tank's water level has gone up, but never this high. I looked in my sump and the water level kept dropping. Soon water started spilling out of my main system. This is when I lost it. I turned off the return pump and closed the valve. The water level in my display tank is completely full still, and my sump is still completely full with water. Im freaking out right now, can some one help. My only idea is to siphon water from the main display, this has never happened before, any help would be appreciated Thanks

08/01/2016, 06:06 AM	#5
kmbyrnes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 2,055	What are you using for an overflow - HOB or in tank? Your sump level should be determined so that it can handle the residual water from the overflow and return until the siphon on the return breaks. Why did you add the ball valve? This is restricting the flow from the tank to your sump. If you are seeing the water level in you DT rise and the level in your sump go down, this indicates that you are no longer draining as much water as you were prior to the changes. Open the ball valve wider, or remove it altogether and see if that helps. How large a diameter is the drain line? Pics might help. __________________ 125g Mixed Reef 5/26/2015; 350 Butterfly Dominated FOWLR 11/26/2015 - 11/17/20217 & 07/31/18 to ??? ; 100g Mixed Reef 11/16/2013 to 06/16/2017 Current Tank Info: Too small

08/01/2016, 06:08 AM	#6
kmbyrnes Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Mesa AZ Posts: 2,055	Just saw your response. What is the level of the drain line below the teeth of the overflow? How far below the water level is the return line? __________________ 125g Mixed Reef 5/26/2015; 350 Butterfly Dominated FOWLR 11/26/2015 - 11/17/20217 & 07/31/18 to ??? ; 100g Mixed Reef 11/16/2013 to 06/16/2017 Current Tank Info: Too small

08/01/2016, 07:41 AM	#17
fishgate Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Damascus, MD Posts: 3,340	Do you have an ATO? If so, it sounds like it kept filling the tank as well as it was dumping into the display tank accounting for the extra system volume. Probably should check your salinity. __________________ 125RR in-wall, 40B Sump, CS180 BM Skimmer, ATI 4x80 watt, eheim 1262, custom wrap around rock wall, ReefKeeper Elite 120g in-wall, 40B Sump, PC 54wx4, Jabao DC-6000 (full siphon), future seahorse t Current Tank Info: 125g, 120g, 2x40b sumps, ATI 4x80 T5HO

08/01/2016, 05:53 AM	#2
HidingReefer Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 259	Also feel free to ask any questions, i' am gonna be here all morning, I am new at reefing so this is really freaking me out

08/01/2016, 05:59 AM	#3
MorganAtlanta Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 146	Is something plugging up your drain? Is your return pump too powerful for your drain to handle the flow? Where did you put the ball valve? On the return or on the drain? Did you remove a corresponding volume of water to what you added in rubble?

08/01/2016, 06:04 AM	#4
HidingReefer Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 259	I do not think the return pump is too strong ive been using it ever since the tanks been, up, its only after I added the new plumbing that the water in the DT rose almost to the top of the black overflow tower. Should I add a picture of what I did, again i'm new at this so what I did might be wrong

08/01/2016, 06:19 AM	#8
HidingReefer Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 259	So I have two lines coming from my return pump into my DT, this is what you mean by return line I hope. Now while the DT was overflowing, the return lines, were approx. 4-5 inches under the water line, and yesterday they were 3 inches under roughly. Since i stopped my return pump now, the water in my DT dropped back down to what it was before I added the new plumbing. Before i added the new plumbing the return lines would sit a little above the water line

08/01/2016, 06:22 AM	#9
MorganAtlanta Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 146	You changed the capacity of your drain line with your changes in the plumbing. Did you also add the 90 degree elbow? It is quite possible you have air stuck in your drain line, which would reduce the flow. I would remove both the ball valve and the elbow. In addition, I would never run a tank with a single drain line and no backup. You've seen the predictable result.

08/01/2016, 06:25 AM	#10
MorganAtlanta Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 146	Just looking at your picture again... is that ball valve the same internal diameter as the drain line before it? It looks smaller.

08/01/2016, 06:25 AM	#11
MiddletoM Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Posts: 147	as said before you aren't draining as fast as your return pump is filling. You need to open the ballvalve more to drain the DT faster or turn down the return pump flow if its a DC pump! Do you only have the 1 drain pipe from the DT to the sump? This is pretty risky as you are now finding out.

08/01/2016, 06:35 AM	#13
HidingReefer Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 259	Thanks for all the advice guys, so my first step now should be to take the plumbing apart? Lucky me I still kept the old pipe. Now that you guys mention it yes this was all my fault. I didn't even realize that my new PVC pipes were smaller, and yes MorganAtlanta since you mention it ya the ball valve is smaller than the pipe before it. So since there is excess water in my system should I siphon that first then start working, and when I turn everything on again, I can add water if I need too. And yes in the future I will definitely keep a backup, I couldn't imagine what it would have felt like waking up to a flooded living room. If you guys could help me out with the next step that would be great thank you so much for all of your help!

08/01/2016, 06:45 AM	#14
MorganAtlanta Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 146	Put the old pipe back on. Do not reduce the size of your drain line below what the size of the bulkhead is. Just keep the water level in your sump such that it will not overflow when you cut off power. There is no need for a ball valve on the drain. Valves on drains are only useful when you have multiple drain lines and are trying to tune the capacity of one so that it always runs at full siphon as in a Herbie or BeanAnimal setup. If you want to reduce back flow into your sump when the power is cut off, you can add a check valve on your return line, but you still need to keep your sump level able to handle the full amount of water as if the check valve was not there, because eventually it will fail.

08/01/2016, 06:59 AM	#15
HidingReefer Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 259	Alright I think I am going to do just that, next time i am definitely going to do my research before jumping into something like this Again can't thank you guys enough, you were very quick to respond, and pretty much saved me from a disaster at 4 am (cali time).

08/01/2016, 07:04 AM	#16
splix Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 374	If you want a ball valve on your drain, thats fine. I have them, but they're for siphon tuning purposes. The whole issue with your tank now is that 90 elbow as well as the adapter going from 1" to 3/4". Never ever ever put a 90 on your drain!!! Drains are gravity fed and a 90 drastically reduces the flow, even more so if it's not pressurized like a return pump would be. I'm betting the max flow through that drain line is around 200 gph with the ball valve and the 90. Based on your pic, slide the sump over if you can. That will make a huge difference in drain speed if you can have everything just drop straight down. If you cant...plumbing with a ball valve should be: (all 1") 45 street fitting, to 2" long piece of pvc, street fit both sides ball valve, pvc leaving ball valve long enough to bring the end to the drain, then do another 45 street to angle it vertically down into your sump. You can then add another couple inch long pvc to attach the corrugated line into your sump. The rule is that the drain should be able to easily overpower your return and you use the ball valve to tune the drain back so you dont get gurgling in the siphon. While tuning the valve, once the water goes silent but looks like it's boiling from the top your set. If it's not "boiling" your drain is too slow and you'll have the same issue as tonight.

08/01/2016, 08:28 AM	#18
Grayhead Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 581	Before you attempt to tackle the plumbing again, I would consult some of the knowledgeable folks here. Some things that need to be determined for others to help. Tank and sump size. Type of drain you are looking to achieve ( Herbie, duros, bean animal for example) Distance from display to sump, also any obstructions you are working thru Size of return pump Plumbing drains have many options as shown above. An emergency drain is critical for most applications. Don't feel bad about seeking advise.

08/01/2016, 08:30 AM	#19
SNAKEMANVET PREMIUM MEMBER Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: TRENTON Tn Posts: 4,486	I remove the 90 and ball valve on your drain.You can put a ball valve on your retun line to help control the flow rate of the pump.

08/01/2016, 09:15 AM	#21
amcvay1979 Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Iowa Posts: 426	I use a gate valve on my drain and a ball valve on my return in case I need to custom tune the output/flow of either. I have both of them wide open and then I added a check valve on the return that just failed last week after over a year in service. Took it off, cleaned it out and it's working fine. Just need to clean it every 6 months or so. That's about as fool proof as you can make it so you won't overflow your tank, or your sump. But like anything, failure will eventually happen and all you can do is prepare and take precautions.