"Made in China" a Warning Label?

[Buzz1329]

Anyone read the latest issue of Coral Magazine (Sept/Oct 2016)?

BTW, a great magazine – love the full-color hard copy – what a concept!

Owner of Triton testing contends/suggests that Chinese pumps are causing spikes in tungsten levels in reef aquaria due to use of cheaper material used to manufacture pump shafts. Article says that the problem is not limited to cheap pumps -- even moderately priced pumps made in China cause same problems. Symptoms cited in article include bare patches on Acropora and paleness of some Monty coral.

Main evidence offered:

(1) Triton switched from 2 moderately-priced corroded Chinese-made pumps to new Venotec Abyzz pumps in their “reference tank” and T levels dropped dramatically without water changes; and

(2) water samples of customers reporting damaged/corroded pumps had high levels of T. But aside from an aquarium in London -- which apparently used same Chinese pumps that Triton was using with similar results (not clear if results refer to tungsten levels or symptoms of coral damage) – the article does not say that pumps at issue were made in China?

As a result Triton is including tungsten analysis in its testing protocol.

But I’m wondering:

1. Absent evidence that customers with high tungsten levels were using Chinese pumps, not sure replacement of two corroded Chinese pumps with new non-Chinese pumps is sufficient to conclude that Chinese pumps generally elevate tungsten levels. Am I missing something?

2. Article contends that its findings support using pumps from “established” manufacturers with extensive engineering departments.” OK, but how are consumers to know that established manufacturers are not outsourcing production of pumps to China? Seems like an awful lot of European and American-branded reef products are made in China. E.G., the Vertex Omega 130 skimmer I run on my 75 (which BTW I LOVE!) says that it is German engineered but made in China. Do "established" Western mfrs. certify that their pumps are made in America/Germany? If so, I withdraw this paragraph.

3. Don’t see in article any evidence that any non-Chinese mfr is producing pumps that do not have same alleged problem as Chinese pumps. And Venotec pumps are apparently new, so how do we know that Venotec pumps won't degrade and cause elevated tungsten levels?

Full disclosure: I have used Jabao wavemaker pumps for several years in 2 tanks. I don’t see symptoms article describes nor have I tested for tungsten yet. After reading article I may well send water samples to Triton for testing, and if I see elevated Tugsten levels, would likely replace pumps. I have had long-standing issues with nuisance algae in both tanks (which have -- thank you Jebus! -- been in abeyance for several months now) but that does not seem to relevant to tungsten issue).

My major beef with Jabao is that it and its retailer make no attempt to communicate in English, which I find to be insulting and infuriating. Product manuals, website descriptions and emails are written in words that technically qualify as English but are otherwise largely unintelligible.

Please feel free to settle my hash.

Mike

[lokmar]

Made in china has been a warning label for years no matter what kind of product you're talking about. I'm in the trucking and automotive industry and the cheap and substandard stuff always comes from china. For instance, brake rotors from china are junk while those made in Brazil and Canada are better and yes, more expensive. Same goes for components made from 4340 steel. You'd think any steel of a certain rating would be the same in the entire universe. Not so. I dont see why aquarium products would be any different.

[SeaCucumberFan]

Everything Made In China is bad.



Except Chinese food

[C.Eymann]

Originally Posted by SeaCucumberFan

Everything Made In China is bad.



Except Chinese food

Agreed! Hate mass produced, sub quality stuff from China, but love me some take out peking duck smothered in plum sauce

[mcgyvr]

Does Triton measure for molybdenum?
China tends to use more Tungsten vs Molybdenum as an alloy in steel vs other countries due to the fact that China has a ton of Tungsten and is the leading supplier to the rest of the world..
While the largest supplier of Molybdenum is a mine in the US..

Its all about supply/demand.. China as access to more Tungsten so they use that.. US,etc.. have access to more moly so they use that..

Is there any proof that X amount of tungsten is really a/the problem?
Is there any proof that X amount of molybdenum is a problem?

Sadly though "cost" is the #1 driving factor in consumer purchasing so China is and will continue to be the super power there... There are only a few exceptions and thats "brand" recognition for a few specific markets.. Like Apple customers... They must have an Apple and will pay 7-10x the price.. Very few if any other industries/products have that..

I've always said that once China gets their quality/corruption issues under control that the prospect for growing manufacturing in the rest of the world is going to be hopeless..

[Dmorty217]

Interesting that when you have children and people in labor camps making your sub par crap without any Quality Control the problems you will have with the products. I can assure you that the Abyzz pumps won't have any of the problems the lesser made chinese stuff does and will.

[D-Nak]

I don't think we can ever get around the "Made in China" issue, including equipment we use in our tanks. The problem is sourcing of parts, not where it's manufactured. For example, if something is made in the US, then parts could still very well come from China. In other words, it could be well built, but with crappy parts (if the assumption here is that Chinese manufactured parts are crap).

Venotec may have gone the extra mile to ensure that all of their parts -- down to the screws -- are made in Germany and don't leach metals and other chemicals, but the price of their pumps is reflective of that. Most of us will have a hard time paying over $1k on a pump that otherwise performs the same as a moderately priced pump.

Abyzz pumps are not new. They've been around a few years now. I don't think we hear much about them because they serve a niche market, just like Royal Exclusiv.

Regarding Jebao and other Chinese companies, generically speaking it's a difference in culture. Their main goal is typically to offer a decent pump for cheap. It's reflective of a smaller R&D budget because many of these pumps are copies of existing designs. They find ways to save the consumer money, typically with cheaper parts, and as you mentioned, lack of localized support (US website and instructions).

Here's the problem: if consumers continue to buy these types of products, then they'll keep making them. Therefore, we really can't complain (well, of course we can! We can say whatever we want!!!) about cheap Chinese products because we know what we're getting (and not getting) for the price.

[mpyers]

To expand on D-nak's parts argument. Even if they use American made parts. The American made parts manufacturer may use Chinese steel. As it is increasingly being imported. And even if it's American steel. It may very well be made with Chinese raw materials. (I.e. Vanadium) and so still has possible issues. Solution, buy pumps with ceramic or Teflon shafts. Or it should be easy enough to purchase a ceramic or Teflon rod and replace the shaft. (I don't know that though. Ive never done it)

[Ebisan]

Originally Posted by SeaCucumberFan

Everything Made In China is bad.



Except Chinese food

Look up fake eggs china, fake rice china, fake meat china in youtube.

[snorvich]

Buy cheap, buy often.

[C.Eymann]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Buy cheap, buy often.

Short but true. When it comes to equipment purchasing in this hobby, this is a blunt, but accurate statement.
I guess do it right the first time would also apply.

[SeaCucumberFan]

Originally Posted by Ebisan

Look up fake eggs china, fake rice china, fake meat china in youtube.

Oh, I see... you don't like peking duck

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by snorvich

Buy cheap, buy often.

Words from a seasoned vet. Laminate it!

[D-Nak]

Originally Posted by SeaCucumberFan

Oh, I see... you don't like peking duck

Peking duck is my death row meal.

[C.Eymann]

Originally Posted by D-Nak

Peking duck is my death row meal.

Yaaaaaaassss, peking duck smothered in plum sauce, okay getting off topic


Back on topic:if it's made in Germany, in this hobby, its usually the best of the best.

Just my .02

[Ebisan]

My death row last meal would be a nice bowl of pho. Mmmm

[C.Eymann]

Originally Posted by Ebisan

My death row last meal would be a nice bowl of pho. Mmmm

Hipster, lol JK

[2_zoa]

Originally Posted by D-Nak

Here's the problem: if consumers continue to buy these types of products, then they'll keep making them. Therefore, we really can't complain (well, of course we can! We can say whatever we want!!!) about cheap Chinese products because we know what we're getting (and not getting) for the price.

I blieve the problem is GREED. If I can send raw "American " products to China on a boat and have them processed/assembled in China. Then placed back on a boat and sent back to me for less money then if I'd just had things done here in the US..........that's a problem.

Keeping up with the jones has changed the fundamentals of "life". Gotta have this or gotta have that. It's ridiculous. New things coming out every 6 months. Heck, you can't even buy parts to fix our cars anymore. Go buy a ball joint for a Chevy truck. They'll sell you a whole new A arm cause the ball joint isn't a serviceable part anymore. Put a a darned grease fitting in the stupid thing. Come on.
EVERYTHING has a built in life span today. We must make more money to replace what was once fixable. Life is so fast paced these days it's crazy. Stop and think back just 10 years ago. Unreal.

[Buzz1329]

Originally Posted by C.Eymann

Yaaaaaaassss, peking duck smothered in plum sauce, okay getting off topic


Back on topic:if it's made in Germany, in this hobby, its usually the best of the best.

Just my .02

Yep. I always swore by Eheim. But their "compact" pumps are absolutely pathetic -- are they made in Germany I wonder?

Tunze pumps seem to be indestructible.

And there are probably scores of other German manufactured pumps that I have never tried that support your opinion.

Mike

[Reel North]

See my sig. Nuff said.

Never tried Peking duck.

[C.Eymann]

Originally Posted by Reel North

See my sig. Nuff said.

Never tried Peking duck.

Well said my friend

[Ron Reefman]

Many/most of you may be too young to remember this. But before China was even doing any serious exporting, about 50 years ago, there was another Asian country that had the exact same reputation for lack of quality that China has today. In the 1950's, 60's and into the 70's "Made in Japan" was an insult because all the goods imported into the US from Japan was cheap and of very poor quality. Sound familiar?

Well look at Japan now. The US struggled through the 90's and into the 21st century to make cars that are as good as those from Japan. Oh, and TV's and radios, and phonographs (I know, half of you don't even know what a phonograph was!), and CD players and cameras... the list goes on and on.

Soap Box Mode: on

So just because 'Made in China' is mostly a black mark against a brand today, don't expect it to be that way is 10 or 20 years. They are already adjusting to the world economy and the appetite for cheap products. And no matter how much you wish things were different, just look at this board and how many reefers are using equipment made in China. Jebao, EverGrow, MarsAqua, ReefBreeders, OceanRevive and so many more brands are now very popular here. And as China's manufacturing ability expands, and the look for new markets, they see that western cultures like better quality and China is moving in that direction.

Fifteen years ago Jebao was already selling pumps in the US, mostly for use in ponds. And their first aquarium sump pumps were really junk. And China's first led fixtures 5 years ago were really junk (and so were most of the ones made in the US as well). But Jebao has come a long way. I have 3 original DC12000 sump pumps that have been running full speed since a couple of months after they became available. And I have both a Maxspect Gyre and a Jebao Crossflow, honestly, I think the Crossflow is better built and at less than half the price! I bought EverGrow leds almost 4 years ago when they first entered the aquarium market. They were a late entry and came in with a pretty well made fixture at a very reasonable price. Mine 5 fixtures all worked fine and I just bought a new tank and needed a new fixture so I got 1 ReefBreeder Photon 50 V2 for less than what 1 EcoTech Radion would have cost... and over a 59" tank I would have needed 3 of them! $610 vs $2250. Now it isn't an equal to the Radion, but it's way, WAY closer than $1640 of my dollars is worth.

My point here guys, isn't that you are wrong to bash China. There are lots and lots of really crappy products coming here from China. But the tide is changing. Big companies in China see the trend. Now that they have the capacity to make it all, they will start to make it better and the US, Germany and Japan had all better keep their eye on the big picture. The future is globalization and there is no way to stop it short of some apocalyptic event.

Soap Box Mode: off

[hartin461]

Well said..

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by D-Nak

Here's the problem: if consumers continue to buy these types of products, then they'll keep making them.

That's exactly right, and a basic tenant of supply/demand. Consumers want cheap, and routinely fail to understand that it's not just about the initial purchase price but the useful lifetime as well.

BTW, the reason that things are cheaper from China isn't necessarily about the inherent quality of components (though there is a lot of crap), it's about labor arbitrage. As labor rates invariably equalize over time, Chinese mfg. will lose much of this cost advantage.

[moondoggy4]

Originally Posted by Buzz1329

Yep. I always swore by Eheim. But their "compact" pumps are absolutely pathetic -- are they made in Germany I wonder?

Tunze pumps seem to be indestructible.

And there are probably scores of other German manufactured pumps that I have never tried that support your opinion.

Mike

The Eheim Compact pumps are made by Eden and they are Italian I believe, but who knows the where the parts are sourced. A lot of companies have burned by cheap parts sourced from somewhere else.