Kole tang scratching

Bent · 09/11/2016, 02:41 PM

So what gives here? I've had this Kole tang for a few months and he occasionally scratches himself on the rocks or the sand. It's not often and some days I won't see him do it at all. As I type this I'm watching him scratch.

Does he just itch for no reason or is something bothering him. He doesn't seem especially stressed or bothered. No visible signs of anything, he looks pretty healthy other than the scratching.

He went through QT with prazi-pro, metronidazole, and TTM. He also had this behavior in QT.

Should I be worried here or is this behavioral rather than a disease process?

csb123 · 09/11/2016, 09:05 PM

Only time will tell. You did all the right things to prevent an out break.

Bent · 09/12/2016, 04:52 AM

It's so odd. I've googled till I can't think of anymore key words and I can't find anyone with similar behaviors.

I'm real tempted to prazi the display tank...

Silly clownfish · 09/12/2016, 02:22 PM

Saltwater makes my skin itchy...

My dog likes to roll on his back in the grass, and my horse does the same in the dirt (grr) just because scratching their backs feels good. Maybe it is just a quirk. You did everything right to avoid parasites, and I have noticed enough of your posts to know that you are knowledgeable. I would just keep an eye on it.

I used to have a cherub angel that would squeeze through small holes in my rockwork and occassionally got scratches on his side, but they always healed up quickly. I would be concenred if your tang scratches enough to leave marks and they don't heal up in a couple of days.

Kim

Brieninsac · 09/12/2016, 03:04 PM

I've found a skunk cleaner shrimp and neon goby do a good job of keeping my DT livestock pest free.

Bent · 09/12/2016, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly clownfish

Saltwater makes my skin itchy...

My dog likes to roll on his back in the grass, and my horse does the same in the dirt (grr) just because scratching their backs feels good. Maybe it is just a quirk. You did everything right to avoid parasites, and I have noticed enough of your posts to know that you are knowledgeable. I would just keep an eye on it.

I used to have a cherub angel that would squeeze through small holes in my rockwork and occassionally got scratches on his side, but they always healed up quickly. I would be concenred if your tang scratches enough to leave marks and they don't heal up in a couple of days.

Kim

No he doesn't have anything on him as far as scratches and stuff, but it's real hard to see him. He swims so fast it's hard to say. But unless they are pretty minute, I don't see anything.

I guess I'll keep watching until I see someone else doing it or like you say, he gets visible marks on him.

Shrug.

Apotack · 09/14/2016, 03:21 PM

Stray voltage?

Breakthecycle2 · 09/14/2016, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brieninsac

I've found a skunk cleaner shrimp and neon goby do a good job of keeping my DT livestock pest free.

They do not eat marine Crypto or velvet parasites.

Breakthecycle2 · 09/14/2016, 04:46 PM

ICH can harbor in the gills for weeks, which is why a month of observation is needed after TTM. Copper is a much better treatment option for 30 days. I can almost guarantee, your fish has ICH in its gills.

Bent · 09/15/2016, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakthecycle2

ICH can harbor in the gills for weeks, which is why a month of observation is needed after TTM. Copper is a much better treatment option for 30 days. I can almost guarantee, your fish has ICH in its gills.

I severely doubt that. He went through TTM which is gold standard crypto treatment these days, much moreso than copper. It's been in the DT for months now after a 12 week QT. If there was going to be a outbreak it would have happened by now no? Plus no other fish displays this behavior. If crypto was carried in by it, you would think the other animals would be symptomatic.

Dkuhlmann · 09/16/2016, 05:49 AM

Whenever my fish start to scratch themselves on rock or sand even if it's just one fish, I put one drop of Kent garlic concentrate per 10 gallons of water and it usually stops them from scratching in a matter of an hour or less. I don't advocate using garlic long term but for a once a day treatment for a day or two won't hurt anything and frankly IMO and IME it gets rid of this scratching that you are describing. There was a time where I used it daily for about two weeks and now I haven't used it in several months. It's worth a shot IMO

snorvich · 09/16/2016, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brieninsac

I've found a skunk cleaner shrimp and neon goby do a good job of keeping my DT livestock pest free.

Neither does anything for common parasites.

snorvich · 09/16/2016, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

I severely doubt that. He went through TTM which is gold standard crypto treatment these days, much moreso than copper. It's been in the DT for months now after a 12 week QT. If there was going to be a outbreak it would have happened by now no? Plus no other fish displays this behavior. If crypto was carried in by it, you would think the other animals would be symptomatic.

This. Copper is last century treatment.

snorvich · 09/16/2016, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakthecycle2

ICH can harbor in the gills for weeks, which is why a month of observation is needed after TTM. Copper is a much better treatment option for 30 days. I can almost guarantee, your fish has ICH in its gills.

The month of observation after TTM is because TTM only removes cryptocaryon irritans and has no effect on other parasites.

Bent · 09/16/2016, 10:15 AM

I'm starting to wonder if maybe some flukes survived the prazi-pro treatment.

One would think that gill flukes would have either killed the fish or spread to other animals by now.

Maybe he's trying to stir up stuff to eat?

I got nothing.

Bent · 09/16/2016, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dkuhlmann

Whenever my fish start to scratch themselves on rock or sand even if it's just one fish, I put one drop of Kent garlic concentrate per 10 gallons of water and it usually stops them from scratching in a matter of an hour or less. I don't advocate using garlic long term but for a once a day treatment for a day or two won't hurt anything and frankly IMO and IME it gets rid of this scratching that you are describing. There was a time where I used it daily for about two weeks and now I haven't used it in several months. It's worth a shot IMO

Thanks, I think I will.

Any idea how that works?

snorvich · 09/16/2016, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

Thanks, I think I will.

Any idea how that works?

Garlic is bad for fish long term and provides no health benefit. On the other hand, it is excellent on steak.

Bent · 09/16/2016, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Garlic is bad for fish long term and provides no health benefit. On the other hand, it is excellent on steak.

Japanese steak house steak and rice.

Yes please.

snorvich · 09/16/2016, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

Japanese steak house steak and rice.

Yes please.

I am now officially hungry.

JonezNReef · 09/16/2016, 02:32 PM

My Kole Tang did this too every once and a while. Then one day I found him on the euro brace cooked under the lights after jumping out of the tank. I always suspected he might have been getting harassed by the Scopas.

Ohh and thanks now I want steak for dinner LOL

Dkuhlmann · 09/16/2016, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

Thanks, I think I will.

Any idea how that works?

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

Garlic is bad for fish long term and provides no health benefit. On the other hand, it is excellent on steak.

Steve I said that in my post it's not a long term thing.

I have no idea how it works, I just know it works.

Breakthecycle2 · 09/16/2016, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bent

I severely doubt that. He went through TTM which is gold standard crypto treatment these days, much moreso than copper. It's been in the DT for months now after a 12 week QT. If there was going to be a outbreak it would have happened by now no? Plus no other fish displays this behavior. If crypto was carried in by it, you would think the other animals would be symptomatic.

Not necessarily. TTM is not bullet proof for the reason I gave you. It can stay in the gills for a long time and there are cases where it actually encysts and releases more.

Breakthecycle2 · 09/16/2016, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snorvich

The month of observation after TTM is because TTM only removes cryptocaryon irritans and has no effect on other parasites.

TTM does not guarantee ICH will removed.

snorvich · 09/17/2016, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakthecycle2

TTM does not guarantee ICH will removed.

Actually, it does. The front end of the cryptocaryon irritans life cycle is highly deterministic. TTM exploits that. Other treatment focus on the back end of the life cycle which is highly variable.

snorvich · 09/17/2016, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breakthecycle2

Not necessarily. TTM is not bullet proof for the reason I gave you. It can stay in the gills for a long time and there are cases where it actually encysts and releases more.

Ich in the gills acts the same as ich in any other location, and is still subject to the front end of the life cycle. TTM exploits that determinism.

09/11/2016, 02:41 PM	#1
Bent I got nothin' Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The anals Posts: 6,420	Kole tang scratching So what gives here? I've had this Kole tang for a few months and he occasionally scratches himself on the rocks or the sand. It's not often and some days I won't see him do it at all. As I type this I'm watching him scratch. Does he just itch for no reason or is something bothering him. He doesn't seem especially stressed or bothered. No visible signs of anything, he looks pretty healthy other than the scratching. He went through QT with prazi-pro, metronidazole, and TTM. He also had this behavior in QT. Should I be worried here or is this behavioral rather than a disease process? __________________ Quitters never lose. [QUOTE=CStrickland]Who gets mad at a starfish?[/QUOTE] Current Tank Info: 75g DT, 30G refugium, 10g chaeto tank, 50g stock tank basement sump

09/12/2016, 04:52 AM	#3
Bent I got nothin' Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The anals Posts: 6,420	It's so odd. I've googled till I can't think of anymore key words and I can't find anyone with similar behaviors. I'm real tempted to prazi the display tank... __________________ Quitters never lose. [QUOTE=CStrickland]Who gets mad at a starfish?[/QUOTE] Current Tank Info: 75g DT, 30G refugium, 10g chaeto tank, 50g stock tank basement sump

09/12/2016, 02:22 PM	#4
Silly clownfish Registered Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Southeast Pennsylvania Posts: 488	Saltwater makes my skin itchy... My dog likes to roll on his back in the grass, and my horse does the same in the dirt (grr) just because scratching their backs feels good. Maybe it is just a quirk. You did everything right to avoid parasites, and I have noticed enough of your posts to know that you are knowledgeable. I would just keep an eye on it. I used to have a cherub angel that would squeeze through small holes in my rockwork and occassionally got scratches on his side, but they always healed up quickly. I would be concenred if your tang scratches enough to leave marks and they don't heal up in a couple of days. Kim __________________ 75g mixed reef, 20g sump, ocelaris clownfish (20+yrs old), flame hawk, one spot foxface rabbitfish, green mandarin, Bicolor Blenny, Coral Beauty;30g sumpless with Spotcinctus pair with RBTA Current Tank Info: 75g mixed reef, 20g sump, ocelaris clownfish (20+yrs old), flame hawk, one spot foxface rabbitfish, green mandarin, Bicolor Blenny, Coral Beauty;30g sumpless with Spotcinctus pair

09/12/2016, 03:04 PM	#5
Brieninsac Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 782	I've found a skunk cleaner shrimp and neon goby do a good job of keeping my DT livestock pest free. __________________ Red Sea Reefer 350 (73gal/18gal sump) / Kessil a360WE Lights

09/14/2016, 03:21 PM	#7
Apotack Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: New York Posts: 297	Stray voltage? __________________ Adam Current Tank Info: 125gal

09/11/2016, 09:05 PM	#2
csb123 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: minnesota Posts: 104	Only time will tell. You did all the right things to prevent an out break.

09/14/2016, 04:46 PM	#9
Breakthecycle2 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Hasbrouck Heights, NJ Posts: 261	ICH can harbor in the gills for weeks, which is why a month of observation is needed after TTM. Copper is a much better treatment option for 30 days. I can almost guarantee, your fish has ICH in its gills.

09/16/2016, 05:49 AM	#11
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Whenever my fish start to scratch themselves on rock or sand even if it's just one fish, I put one drop of Kent garlic concentrate per 10 gallons of water and it usually stops them from scratching in a matter of an hour or less. I don't advocate using garlic long term but for a once a day treatment for a day or two won't hurt anything and frankly IMO and IME it gets rid of this scratching that you are describing. There was a time where I used it daily for about two weeks and now I haven't used it in several months. It's worth a shot IMO __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

09/16/2016, 10:15 AM	#15
Bent I got nothin' Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: The anals Posts: 6,420	I'm starting to wonder if maybe some flukes survived the prazi-pro treatment. One would think that gill flukes would have either killed the fish or spread to other animals by now. Maybe he's trying to stir up stuff to eat? I got nothing. __________________ Quitters never lose. [QUOTE=CStrickland]Who gets mad at a starfish?[/QUOTE] Current Tank Info: 75g DT, 30G refugium, 10g chaeto tank, 50g stock tank basement sump

09/16/2016, 02:32 PM	#20
JonezNReef Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 782	My Kole Tang did this too every once and a while. Then one day I found him on the euro brace cooked under the lights after jumping out of the tank. I always suspected he might have been getting harassed by the Scopas. Ohh and thanks now I want steak for dinner LOL