All Equal In the End

[AboutAcans]

This might be the only post I ever START lol But I have a lot of people talk to me about this. Especially over the last hour.

Essentially everything costs the same in this industry, all of it. Doesn't matter whether you buy a full blown calcium reactor or dose your aquarium. Use halides or LEDs. Buy Ecotech pumps or Korallias. Jebaos or Ecotech returns. It's just a matter of what people want to fork over up front. Let me explain a bit further.

People would rather buy halides then LEDs because the cost is $200 less. Thing is over the course of 2 years someone is going to also pay for $200 in bulbs for halides. If someone wants to avoid the cost of a $500 calcium reactor package, take what you spend on additives and put the same amount in an account for a year - it'll usually equal that reactor. Buying a DC Jebao return pump (lol), might go through 2 or 3 of them before the warranty even gets near ending on an Ecotech. Same thing with Korallias.

Anytime someone saves money in the beginning, it's going to cost them the same amount of money over the course of 1-2 years to have just started with the better option in my experience. Even things like AP700s vs w360s - if you're a fragger it'll likely give twice the return on frag production. I talk about Kessils a lot because I really just don't care for any other light. Used to be a straight 400 watt DE HQI guy who fragged more corals than anyone on this planet. Took Kessil to to make me unleash my grip on halides.

Point is consider going with the better option and not the cheapest. Essentially it all ends up costing the same in the end and usually you'll get more use out of the higher quality stuff. In the fashion industry people pay for names. In the reef industry you pay for reliability and user friendliness.

[Sk8r]

In general you can get by with a 30 gallon tank and a Penguin filter and hydrometer IF you limit your choices to what marine life can be happy with that. Throwing more fragile specimens into a tank WITHOUT the equipment to provide the right environment just doesn't work out well for them or the owner. Be content with simple things at every level of your entry into the hobby, watch the antics of small critters and hardy fishes and corals and enjoy them, research what livestock you buy, so you never push it too far, and save up for the better equipment/larger tank that will support what you would like to have. The best way to economize is to buy what you can support and advance your skills along the way, so you know what equipment you do need.

[AboutAcans]

Originally Posted by Sk8r

In general you can get by with a 30 gallon tank and a Penguin filter and hydrometer IF you limit your choices to what marine life can be happy with that. Throwing more fragile specimens into a tank WITHOUT the equipment to provide the right environment just doesn't work out well for them or the owner. Be content with simple things at every level of your entry into the hobby, watch the antics of small critters and hardy fishes and corals and enjoy them, research what livestock you buy, so you never push it too far, and save up for the better equipment/larger tank that will support what you would like to have. The best way to economize is to buy what you can support and advance your skills along the way, so you know what equipment you do need.

With all due respect I completely disagree with this. I think creating an environment by restricting a budget to basic or cheap components is an insult to the industry. Creating a setting where a million different things could go wrong IMO is just straight irresponsible. I would rather not have a tank then hook a canister filter to a 30 gallon one. Reefing is an expensive hobby. I don't think anyone should attempt to make due with creating an environment that is sustained by things are barely meant for freshwater. Even some of the most well known companies in the industry have stated that reef organism are among the top 2 hardest things to keep alive in captivity. They deserve more than a canister filter and hydrometer out of respect.

[2smokes]

But if you buy the led lamp (wich is cheaper in the end than MH) then you will have to buy more corals to fill the aquarium because with the leds ,they wont grow as fast as with the halides .LPS corals are just as resistant as somme of the most resistant soft corals.Leds might be good for a LPS tank thogh as these corals grow mostly from food thats fed to them instead of good quality light.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by AboutAcans

With all due respect I completely disagree with this. I think creating an environment by restricting a budget to basic or cheap components is an insult to the industry. Creating a setting where a million different things could go wrong IMO is just straight irresponsible. I would rather not have a tank then hook a canister filter to a 30 gallon one. Reefing is an expensive hobby. I don't think anyone should attempt to make due with creating an environment that is sustained by things are barely meant for freshwater. Even some of the most well known companies in the industry have stated that reef organism are among the top 2 hardest things to keep alive in captivity. They deserve more than a canister filter and hydrometer out of respect.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you said, although I have yet to be convinced I can grow sps with leds (emphasis on the "I" there as I have seen people do it). However, I am a gear junkie in every hobby I'm in. Its really frustrating when I see people taking better pictures with an Iphone, playing better music on a squier, and having better reef tanks on a low budget when I spend the money on quality gear and do it "right" by our definition.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/9/aquarium

Humbling read if you haven't already seen it.

[AboutAcans]

Originally Posted by 2smokes

But if you buy the led lamp (wich is cheaper in the end than MH) then you will have to buy more corals to fill the aquarium because with the leds ,they wont grow as fast as with the halides .LPS corals are just as resistant as somme of the most resistant soft corals.Leds might be good for a LPS tank thogh as these corals grow mostly from food thats fed to them instead of good quality light.

This is a myth. People talk about how nothing will ever replicate halides. About heat, slower growth, etc. Only truth is heat. I have been growing and fragging corals for more than 25 years. You'll rarely see me identify a coral on here because I can't mash by thumb into the skeletal structure and tell what it actually is (meandroid, phaceloid, plocoid, cerioid, flabelloid etc.). It's almost impossible to do from a picture.

I kinda said my piece when it comes to what I think, and that I believe that everything is basically the same cost in the end. Trying to maybe help a few people out and get them to think what they might spend over the long run as opposed to shopping for right now; and the potential harm it could cause to a tank. No difference between a hurricane power outage and an unreliable pump breaking IMO

[AboutAcans]

Originally Posted by pisanoal

I tend to agree with a lot of what you said, although I have yet to be convinced I can grow sps with leds (emphasis on the "I" there as I have seen people do it). However, I am a gear junkie in every hobby I'm in. Its really frustrating when I see people taking better pictures with an Iphone, playing better music on a squier, and having better reef tanks on a low budget when I spend the money on quality gear and do it "right" by our definition.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2014/9/aquarium

Humbling read if you haven't already seen it.

I've read it before. And let me explain that I have no dog in this race and really am not out to prove someone wrong or whatever. There's simply just a difference in opinion. Like I would never keep any form of angelfish in a reef tank. I disagree with that article as well. I think the lighting has come along with over the last 3-4 years.

[AboutAcans]

Let me add this cause it's kind of funny. I won't go throwing around names but I ran my Hamiltons into the ground. I was going with E-ballasts, I had 27 400 watt DE HQI fixtures, 14k. The things ran for 15 years until the rivets holding in the reflector were completely rusted and they were hanging by rock climbing rope because I got tired of chains rusting. Took one HECK of a deal to get me over to Kessils. When I did switch, my growth easily went up by 15%. There's just so many different settings and blah blah blah I just have way too many frag tanks and too many decades where I enjoy explaining and sharing, but the last thing it is is argumentative.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by AboutAcans

I've read it before. And let me explain that I have no dog in this race and really am not out to prove someone wrong or whatever. There's simply just a difference in opinion. Like I would never keep any form of angelfish in a reef tank. I disagree with that article as well. I think the lighting has come along with over the last 3-4 years.

Everyone is entitled to their own .

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[heathlindner25]

This is a glass box with circulation and a hob skimmer. ....should I tear it down?
Doesn't have a sump or fancy equipment.

[pisanoal]

Originally Posted by AboutAcans

Let me add this cause it's kind of funny. I won't go throwing around names but I ran my Hamiltons into the ground. I was going with E-ballasts, I had 27 400 watt DE HQI fixtures, 14k. The things ran for 15 years until the rivets holding in the reflector were completely rusted and they were hanging by rock climbing rope because I got tired of chains rusting. Took one HECK of a deal to get me over to Kessils. When I did switch, my growth easily went up by 15%. There's just so many different settings and blah blah blah I just have way too many frag tanks and too many decades where I enjoy explaining and sharing, but the last thing it is is argumentative.

I wish I could have that success with kessils. I love the lights, but I couldn't make them work for me.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

[bizacon]

Originally Posted by heathlindner25

This is a glass box with circulation and a hob skimmer. ....should I tear it down?
Doesn't have a sump or fancy equipment.

Yes, yes you should and bring it to my house!

Looks great

[heathlindner25]

Another one of my cheap setups.......no sump,cheap powerheads and lights.

[ReefsandGeeks]

Originally Posted by bizacon

Yes, yes you should and bring it to my house!

Looks great

How dare you keep those poor fish and coral in that tank! Don't you know that these fish will all be picked on by other fish for being "lower class" when they go to school? I think all fish should have their own personal cleaner shrimp, a custom built cave, and most importantly you have to have a sump or else they can't brag about "system volume" instead of display tank volume.

(hope you can read that with sarcasm, nice looking tank.)

[homer1475]

I really wish the whole MH Vs T5's Vs. LED's debate would die out. It's been proven time and time again that LED's grow corals just as well if not better(when set up properly) then MH's and T5's.

In the long run LED's end up costing less as they use less energy to run, they produce far less heat, leading to possibly not needing a chiller(depending on your climate), and you don't have to replace bulbs every few months.

One thing I will disagree with is the buying a name brand thinking because it has a name brand it must be better. I had rapid LED's on my biocube and they grew my corals great. New tank has Chinese black box LED's and my corals are growing even faster even though they cost about 1/3 of the price. Some name brand products are worth buying simply because of the reliability(ecotech pumps, certain name brand skimmers, etc, etc), but for most in this hobby their time is very limited and spending 400$ on a pump Vs 100$ is often the deciding factor on how long they are in the hobby when the 100$ pump breaks in a couple months.

[2smokes]

Leds are made of plastic so they cant make light in the uvc and uvb spectrum because thoos particular vavelengths will fry the plastic led fast.Only light source that can produce the UVC-UVB are made of real glass like T5 and MH.Sps corals get hit by a lot of UV radiation in nature wich is absolutely inexistent in all led light fixtures.For LPS and soft corals ,deeper water corals ,LED light is good but for high light sps led are worthless.If somme acropora survives with led light that doesnt mean it thrive like with the MH and T5.

[heathlindner25]

I have seen plenty of sps tanks, including acros, lit with leds..............

[homer1475]

Originally Posted by 2smokes

Leds are made of plastic so they cant make light in the uvc and uvb spectrum because thoos particular vavelengths will fry the plastic led fast.Only light source that can produce the UVC-UVB are made of real glass like T5 and MH.Sps corals get hit by a lot of UV radiation in nature wich is absolutely inexistent in all led light fixtures.For LPS and soft corals ,deeper water corals ,LED light is good but for high light sps led are worthless.If somme acropora survives with led light that doesnt mean it thrive like with the MH and T5.

And yet there are plenty of SPS dominated tanks around here that are absolutely thriving under LED's.

[2smokes]

There are plenty of sps aquariums lighted with leds but the best sps +led tanks i suspect they look good because thoose corals were put allready big in the tank not growed from small frags .Thoose UV (UVB and UVC) spectrum radiation in my opinion are the key for a good light for shallow water sps,especially acropora. In humans,without the vitamin D made by these ,,harmfull,, radiation there will be no bone growth.I think its similar to somme corals too.Even the guys that grow snakes in a terrarium have a uvb bulb for the snake to get suntan when it needs and is an essential radiation for manny forms of life .

[AboutAcans]

Originally Posted by heathlindner25

I have seen plenty of sps tanks, including acros, lit with leds..............

I think you missed the point of my post. My point was that all this stuff ends up costing the same in the end. To consider this when starting a tank. To give the critters the best set up you can and don't cut costs just to have some eye candy for a bit. I'm saying CHEAP set ups should not be made. That is a canister filter connected to a 30. That doesn't fall along the lines of a good HOB skimmer and a large amount of live rock. That's essentially a display sump. Now if you're saying the lights over the thing are T5s, then I'd say that's not a good thing. But I doubt they are based on the growth of the hard corals in that tank.

But my oldest tank is 27 years old with acros hanging out of the surface.

[cleverbs]

Originally Posted by AboutAcans

This might be the only post I ever START lol But I have a lot of people talk to me about this. Especially over the last hour.

Essentially everything costs the same in this industry, all of it. Doesn't matter whether you buy a full blown calcium reactor or dose your aquarium. Use halides or LEDs. Buy Ecotech pumps or Korallias. Jebaos or Ecotech returns. It's just a matter of what people want to fork over up front. Let me explain a bit further.

People would rather buy halides then LEDs because the cost is $200 less. Thing is over the course of 2 years someone is going to also pay for $200 in bulbs for halides. If someone wants to avoid the cost of a $500 calcium reactor package, take what you spend on additives and put the same amount in an account for a year - it'll usually equal that reactor. Buying a DC Jebao return pump (lol), might go through 2 or 3 of them before the warranty even gets near ending on an Ecotech. Same thing with Korallias.

Anytime someone saves money in the beginning, it's going to cost them the same amount of money over the course of 1-2 years to have just started with the better option in my experience. Even things like AP700s vs w360s - if you're a fragger it'll likely give twice the return on frag production. I talk about Kessils a lot because I really just don't care for any other light. Used to be a straight 400 watt DE HQI guy who fragged more corals than anyone on this planet. Took Kessil to to make me unleash my grip on halides.

Point is consider going with the better option and not the cheapest. Essentially it all ends up costing the same in the end and usually you'll get more use out of the higher quality stuff. In the fashion industry people pay for names. In the reef industry you pay for reliability and user friendliness.

While I will agree that many times when we buy cheap we end up having to replace. I 1000% disagree with your logic about lighting. People who buy Metal halides or T5ho fixtures like myself dont do it because its "Cheaper" we all know we are spending $100's each year on bulbs its in no way cheaper. We buy metal halide or t5hos because its tride and true and works. LED's in the past year have been getting there but they still do not stand up in an sps tank like a halide or t5ho fixture does. IMO and i say IMO LED's do not belong over SPS tanks.

A better comparison would be buying the cheap ebay led over the ecotech radion.

[Wazzel]

Often when you cheap out you cost yourself more with having to replace down the line. The most expensive gear is usually not necessary and you are just over spending for the name. Not unique to this hobby.

As far as the LED issue, it needs to just go away. LEDs work well and every bit as good as the other light choices for any coral. All my pieces were grown from frags under nothing but LED for the last 2.5 years. My tank is about 80% SPS.

[boxfishpooalot]

Two things which your talking about here. Effciecy and quality.

I dont use technology anymore i hate it. The more parts to break, the more likely my tank will fail.

No gfo, i use an algae turf scrubber. Zero po4 zero no3.

I will not be using lights anymore, soon to switch to a sun pipe or solatube to use the sun.

I dont use ro/di anymore soon, ill be using distilled water from the sun in the summer and winter i will collect snow freshly fallen with 0tds, that i filter through carbon and sediment filters.

In the end my tank will use only a gyre to move water, and a heater if my house doestnt keep it stable.

[ca1ore]

Well, of course things don't all end up costing the same literally, but I take the point that many folks evaluate cost differences based only on initial acquisition costs and not on 'lifetime' cost. Trying to evaluate net cost differences between LED and MH. as example, is elusive at best. About all one can say is that LEDs are more efficient at turning input energy into light output. Simply putting one's hand under the light quickly confirms this. But, for folks that live in a cooler climate, that heat can mean you don't run your purpose heaters as often.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by Wazzel

As far as the LED issue, it needs to just go away. LEDs work well and every bit as good as the other light choices for any coral. All my pieces were grown from frags under nothing but LED for the last 2.5 years. My tank is about 80% SPS.

Couldn't agree more! I've been keeping and growing SPS under LED only for a couple of years now. Why some folks are not successful I cannot say, though I would suspect either 'user error' or complex interactions.