anyone ever see this problem, or have the answer? with pics

[cncguy]

I'm not new to the hobby, (had SW tanks for about 15yrs and started trying reef about 5 or 6 years ago), but obviously an amateur with the given problem. I've posted on here a few times before, and some lengthy, so I'll try and keep it as short as I can, but please don't pass me by if it looks to long just wanna be descriptive, as I'm OVERLY frustrated!

Problem- Corals Won't Grow!!!!!!!!!! (including coralline)

Is there ANY chance my water can be bad or not good enough even with RO/DI that has new filters????? And how would I know???

Alk-10. Salifert
Calcium- 450 Salifert
SG- 1.025 refractometer
Nitrate- between 5 and 10 ( I hate color charts!!!) Salifert
Mag- ran out of tests, but almost always at 1350 Salifert

FTS shows everything. As you can see I have NO problem with Xenia. Those Xenia started as a frag 1-1/2 yrs ago. Good right? No, it's the same time I got the Nepthea {pic 3}, and the purple montipora {pic 2 against glass}, which have not grown AT ALL!!!

The frogspawn {pic 5} is about 3 or 4 years old. Never grown

The colt coral, {pic 4} is probably 3 years old, and just SLOWLY keeps getting smaller

The pink montipora {pic 2 and 5}is about 6mos old with NO growth, if not receding.

lost pipe organ, trumpets, and GSP just recedes

RARELY (basically never) have a problem with fish or inverts

I have literally tried about everything suggested aside from start over.

I've tried (probably won't remember it all):
New bulbs
Added LEDs
Less light
Less photoperiod
More photoperiod
GFO
Carbon
GFO and Carbon
No GFO or Carbon
Different salt mix I use Reef Crystals, but tried RSCP
Regularly change RO/DI filters
Feeding corals Reef snow and Reef Chili
Not feeding corals
More flow
Less flow
kalk
no kalk
More water changes (15% bi-weekly)
Less water changes (20% every month or 2)

I know I said I'd try n keep it short, but I know you'll also probably like to know the setup.......

90gal
20 gal sump with live rock
6 T5 bulbs All ATI
21 LED usa coral pro 48"
RO 110 skimmer
Mag 12 return
GFO reactor
Gyre 130
Sicce powerhead 800gph I think

Lastly, livestock
Yellow tang
2 pajama cardinals
percula
Condy anemone (which the clown LOVES)
GIANT brittle star
about 10 snails, and 1 crab

Any ideas on why coral won't grow????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Please don't find it rude if I say I've tried it. I'm just looking for an answer. I'm thinking there's still something I'm missing, but what?????? Even outside the box. i.e. Strontium, silicates, etc? I don't think it's the setup or husbandry......

thanks all!!!!!!

[mcgyvr]

Do you test for phosphates?
Some level of phosphates is needed for growth..

I'd be SO curious to see if you didn't have ALL that xenia if your problem went away..

My WAG ($0.02) is that in the struggle for who is benefiting from any food/phosphates in the water that the xenia is winning and not letting anything else get some..

You "might" want to let the alk/cal come down a bit (slowly) too.. Maybe try alk around 8

[Deahttub]

+1 my guess is xenia starving out the coral. How many fish do you have? Doesnt look like many maybe add more fish to add more nutrients...

[cincyjim]

Just out of curiosity, are any of the corals Maricultured corals? I've never had any luck with those while others have done really well.

[aujosh84]

My bet is also with the xenia. Not only absorbing nutrients faster than other corals can get it, but also might be releasing inhibitors into your water hurting the others. With that much, it might be more than your carbon can keep up with absorbing.

[75mixedreef]

Yep, its hard for your garden to grow when weeds are taking over and taking all the nutrients and water from the soil. If it grows like a weed, chances are it eats like one too. Try getting rid of as much of it as you can. You can't get it all in one try so don't worry about losing it (which would not be bad), just start selling, tossing, killing as much as you can and then wait to see how your other corals react after a couple months.

[schnebbles]

So, xenia is bad, darn it. I got a small one for my tank, it's pretty.

[dmarkham]

Originally Posted by schnebbles

So, xenia is bad, darn it. I got a small one for my tank, it's pretty.

It is bad when it gets out of control. Just like almost everything else in this hobby. The key is balance.

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by schnebbles

So, xenia is bad, darn it. I got a small one for my tank, it's pretty.

Some actually employ a "Xenia Filter" because of what they do so well..

I've had "similar" issues with Blue Anthelia.. I got a small 1" frag.. In a little under a year it was covering virtually every rock surface in my 120G tank (Its the reason I broke the whole tank down)

[ca1ore]

Pyramid butterfly cleared my tank of Xenia and clove polyps. Too bad the don't eat green hairy mushrooms.

[cncguy]

Only reason I'm not sure that's the problem, the xenia is only 1 1/2 years old. So nothing was growing before that. The colt, frogspawn, GSP, etc are years older than the xenia

Does anyone think my question about the RO/DI water not being good is a possibility? Even with new filters?

So maybe more fish, less Xenia????

At a loss, still.........................

[75mixedreef]

If the xenia took over like that then it means 2 things. First, you have nutrients in your tank for the xenia to take in in order to multiply so that could have been holding your other corals back. Second, the xenia did multiply so your growing conditions are close enough that a small correction could really help.

What bulbs do you have? Maybe the color spectrum is off. It could also be your flow. You want somewhere around 15 times turn over in a mixed reef tank. Less than that is better for softies and more is better for SPS. The Gyre is controllable so maybe it is set to too low or it and/or the other powerhead needs to be cleaned. Make sure there are no dead zones and put the non softies in the higher flow areas, the leathers might like slightly more flow than other softies so it doesn't hurt them to turn it up too.

[cncguy]

If I remember correctly, I have 3 Blue +, 2 purple + and a coral +
Never made a difference when I changed bulbs. Didn't change when I added the LED coral pro strip.

As far as flow, I'm probably around 30x maybe?

Gyre runs at 80%, and the other powerhead I believe is a 800gph, plus a Mag 12 return barely restricted........

The other reason I don't think it's the Xenias, is my 12gal nano is in the same shape.

Pineapple tree- about 4 years old, NEVER grown
GSP grows new spots, but dies behind that
Palys- maybe 2 or 3 new all year.......
Blue clove polyps- 1-1/2 yrs old, NEVER spread.......

Again, open to any suggestions, please don't think I'm rude if it seems like I've 'tried it all'!!!!!!

[cncguy]

That's why I asked, is it even possible to have bad water come out of a RO/DI system, even with new filters? It's a 4 stage BRS.....

Cause I have 2 different tanks, and the nano is obviously a different setup- chinese LEDs, 'live sand', no skimmer, etc.

But can't grow corals in my house!!!!!

[75mixedreef]

There can be contaminates that your RODI does not catch. I think phosphate might be one, not sure though. Test your phosphates, that's the one thing I have not seen you mention.

Your lights are quite red with the 2 purple+, I'd swap a P+ for a C+ and your balance should be a little better. Not that it would prevent any growth, but every little bit helps. They could also be too bright, that frogspawn looks a little pale. Try it without the LEDs and limit your full spectrum to 4-6 hours a day. Sunrise and sunset can go 12 hours no problem, but doesn't do as much for your corals other than to "wake them up" before the main lights come on and for your viewing pleasure.

It sounds like you have a sump. Try growing chaeto if you aren't already. Either way I would seriously cut the xenia back. If the chaeto does really well then you have nutrient issues. Phosphates are known for being coral inhibitors. The xenia could have eaten up your higher nutrients and replaced them with some coral warfare so replacing xenia with chaeto is trying 2 things at the same time.

30X turnover sounds a little high, but I'm not sure it is too high. You can dial that back a little since the only SPS you have is the monti. It should make any huge difference, but it can't hurt either.

I'm starting to think that there may be no smoking gun here. Things might just be a little off in many different areas so fixing only part of the problem doesn't make a noticeable difference. It can also take a while for the corals to respond, like a month to 6 months. I think stability, nutrients, coral warfare and lighting should be you main focuses. Lower lighting help thing deal with changes so even if that is not an issue at all it can still help while you make corrections. Then tackle the other issues and observe the outcome over the next 2 months. Poly extension, coral inflation, and coloring should provide some visual cues to let you know if something is wrong or you went too fast.

When removing xenia, it is best to do it out of the display tank so it does not poison the water as you remove it. Do a large water change when you are done in case toxins are released, that will help the carbon absorb the rest.

One other thought is if your water contains high chlorine before you filter it. Trace amounts could be making their way to your tank before the carbon removes it or it just doesn't add up because of your water changes. You could try adding a chlorine remover to your freshly made water for the next month or more and see it that makes a difference too.

I'm not sure what is really going to help you, you just have to try various things and give it time. Most of us have been there where something is wrong and we feel like we have tried everything, so we get it and won't be put off by you saying you have tried something. Just keep at it until you figure it out.

[Janetsplanet]

I found something interesting when transitioning to my new aquarium. More Phos, and lower Alk (currently at 7), I saw an explosion in both color and growth of LPS and SPS. No idea what to attribute my success to other than one or both of the above. I did also switch salt to Kent at the time, but I used it in the old aquarium as well as new aquarium with seemingly no results in the old.

I think you should be testing phosphates, and let us know what the test kit says.

I doubt it's the RO/DI if the filters are new but to test the theory you could also look into temporarily buying water at the LFS to see if that changes anything.

I have zero softies so I can't speak to the xenia.

Additionally, I agree with the person who had trouble with some maricultured corals. In my experience, they don't usually grow very well and/or slowly melt away. The ones that seem to do best for me are aquacultured.

[cncguy]

Thanks for the advice 75. Again, not to sound like a broken record, but I have ran it with just the T5s, and didn't get any results.

Maybe I'll try it again for a while.......

As far as the chaeto, not sure if it has the same requirements, but I've put some caulerpa in the sump before, and it died within a few days......

Flow, maybe I'll turn the gyre down to 40-50% and see if it does anything.

Is there any way to check if my source water is bad out of the RO/DI?

[cncguy]

I have checked phosphates before, just not recently. They were always low, but can't remember a reading. I'll check again.

Unfortunately the closest LFS to me is at least an hour away, so getting water isn't much of an option......... Although I thought of trying spring water in the nano to see if there's a change there, but read that spring water isn't the best for reefs either?

[75mixedreef]

The fact that your caulerpa died means you have low to no nutrients in the tank. Whatever other issues are going on, the xenia is pulling all the nutrients out of that tank. Fix that issue first and go from there. Pale corals with low nutrients is not surprising so you can ignore the light portion for now unless you want to give them a less intense environment to recuperate.

Stick with the RODI water and focus on other conditions. How often do you feed? Was low nutrients an issue before you added the Xenia and that just made it worse? You can add a dechlorinator if you have any concerns about the water, most have an ammonia lock too so that helps. Every symptom is pointing to low nutrients so stick to that for now and give it a bit of time.

You could even put all your non xenia corals into the nano and feed a little heavily just to try it out. Not sure on the light in the nano and if it is enough, or if there might be other issues in that tank that art holding you back, but it might be worth a try. That's just if you don't want to kill off the xenia though. If you are attached to it and like it better than your other corals then that's fine too. I know several people that like softie tanks. But it is going to be difficult to impossible to have uncontrolled xenia with any other corals. Its a weed and grows like one so it will out compete pretty much everything especially when it has a foothold. I only say this because it seems like you might be hesitant to cut back on the xenia. Just figure out what your priorities are and go from there.

[cncguy]

Ok, so i think what I'm picking up here is, I need to feed the tank more right? Will that give me nutrients?

I only feed once a day, and only a pinch of Spectra thera A.

I was always under the assumption to not overfeed, but maybe I am WAY underfeeding the tank?

Cause again, I rarely feed the corals, cause it didn't seem to make a difference either

I don't have a problem removing xenia, I'm just the kind of guy that would hate to kill it, but don't have any other option. The only other reason I would be skeptical, is after I remove a pile of Xenia, nothing changes, and I took all my 'foliage' out. But then again, doesn't seem like it would be a problem for it too grow back!!!!

Question, if the xenia are exploding, why would my GSP, colt, or other 'fast growers' not grow? May be a dumb question, but I don't have the answer...........

[cncguy]

Hmmmmm, just read somewhere else, to get more nutrients in water column, skim less? Is this true? Should I put the skimmer on the light timer???

[timnem70]

Have a bunch along with several varieties of macro. Works as a great filter feeder and requires less light and still grow. Balance is the key, I have seen beautiful tanks with a ball of it separate from the main rock work and just the way it makes a tank visually move.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Timfish]

FWIW, I do not let any single species account for more than 10% of the biomass of a system. I'm in the camp thinking you don't have enough phosphates. Reef average is .13% and only a tiny fraction of reefs are below .05 mg/l. Systems can have very good growth with ultra low nutrients but what is not being tested are the levels of organic nutrients the system and phosphate is a limiting nutrient for corals to use nitrogen. RO/DI systems can get bacteria colonies growing in them and might need replacing but maintaining a couple systems using local tap water I doubt you RODI is the problem.

[ColoReefer970]

Here's 2 more cents from a different direction.

I see a giant list of things tried with no positive results.

Have you considered slowing down?

I see like 20 things tried...over what time period?

Have you tried consistency for an extended period of time?

[cncguy]

To answer one question, I just looked at my first post, was 2 January's ago. So I've been trying to address this for well over 2 years......

And for consistency, I'll usually go at least a 2 months, if not longer when trying something

The quote in Timfish's post is exactly what my next move is....
"Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs"

I read an AWESOME thread here last night, 'the secret to colorful, heathly corals....obvious to some, elusive to many'

Almost like a lightbulb came on! I try not to get too excited because I've failed so far, and my little brain doesn't comprehend all the scientific stuff, but......

I think my problem the whole time has been good husbandry, but no food/nutrients in the column.

So, without getting into the technical stuff I don't understand, I think I've been WAY underfeeding, (barely once a day, a small pinch of pellets for 4 fish), and am gonna feed way more than that, because I think my maintenance is good enough to get the bad stuff out after/while it's deteriorating.

Should get some more fish too, and take out a PILE of xenia. Just hate to throw away something living tho;(

So, if my little brain understood that post, basically want a lot in the water comumn, but suck out the detritus regularly before it turns bad?

Is frozen food still good after exp date, maybe just not as good?