Neptune Apex. Worth it and your thoughts?

[KashAlp]

Hey guys, so I've been debating on pulling the trigger on a new Neptune Apex with EB8 controller for a few weeks for my 45 cube. A close friend of mine has one on his 120 I helped program and set up so I know a bit about them and how awesome they are. However, I was just wondering if you think they are really worth the $$$$ and would you consider it a tool that has made your tank evolve further then it would have without it?

Also with all the features and control it has what are the most used aspects of it you use the most frequently? Is it something you use and/or depend on daily? Would you buy another if you had the option?

PS.. I know people, myself included, who fork out the money for things HATE admitting they bought something they easily could have gone without or wasted money. Please try and be as unbiased as possible if your one of those people.

Thanks and merry Christmas

[Cammunoz]

I would definately reccomend it!


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[Ebone]

others will probably agree.... it is one thing you did not realize how much you needed/wanted/amazing it is until you have one... then you are just frustrated that you thought it was expensive and hadn't done it yet. Also... go ahead and buy the full you will end up doing so anyway :-)

[schatzi]

Originally Posted by Ebone

others will probably agree.... it is one thing you did not realize how much you needed/wanted/amazing it is until you have one... then you are just frustrated that you thought it was expensive and hadn't done it yet. Also... go ahead and buy the full you will end up doing so anyway :-)

+1

It's worth the money. The Fusion interface is nicely done, very useful and also easy to use. It may be a big part of your budget but you won't regret it.

[Ebone]

plus.... I am a 1000 miles away and can watch monitor my tank and watch it... being away can be a little more peaceful

[ca1ore]

I have had one now for 3 years, after not having a controller for 25 years. It's a net positive, allowing you to monitor and control things not possible without Apex. It does introduce a 'single point of failure' though, so buy and use with that in mind.

[Ebone]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

I have had one now for 3 years, after not having a controller for 25 years. It's a net positive, allowing you to monitor and control things not possible without Apex. It does introduce a 'single point of failure' though, so buy and use with that in mind.

good point made here.... I have multiple power bars plugged into different outlets so if one fail at least a portion of the system remains running

[ktownhero]

I'm new to Apex and it is one of the most well developed systems I have had the pleasure of using. The cloud interface is incredibly well done and functions every bit as well as the local interface. Which is quite a feat.

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[zsuman101]

l wont setup another reef without one

[PsymonStark]

I would not go without one. Like Ebone said, it's one of those things, you don't know it's missing until you have one. So many little activities, passive or active that a controller just excels at. An example would be, put all my vortechs into a custom mode (constant 10%) for 10min while the fish & coral eat, and revert back to normal thereafter. Temp control. Switching off individual plugs, pumps, devices at the "flick of a switch" instead of pulling and finding some cable somewhere. Warnings/emails if certain parameters aren't met, is reef saving.
It's worth the price 10x fold.


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[CAPT_Dave]

i think it depends a little on budget but some level of automation is really important to actually enjoying this hobby over the long term. When accounting make sure you capture all the costs and not just the cost of the Apex. BRS has a great video on this issue that you can see here: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/...m-controllers/


I have a Reef Keeper Lite because my budget couldn't handle tha Apex. The Reef Keeper is a lot cheaper and not nearly as nice as the Apex but I'm still controlling 8 different things while automating temp and lights and protecting against overdosing Kalk by automatically turning off top off pump if pH rises too fast. Apex does even more but budget matters. Figure out what you need and shop around, even consider buying used from a reefer in you area. But when you count the whole cost and complexity of not automating your tank, or just relying on timers, it is pretty clear that some kind of controller is essential to long term success and enjoyment in this hobby.

[Jscwerve]

While I have no experience with the Apex controllers, I hear they are very nice.

I got a ReefKeeper Lite after doing everything manually for over a year. I didn't think it would make very much of a difference.

I was wrong.

After having the Lite for 3 weeks I already upgraded to an Elite so I could expand the controller.

I went from controlling nothing and no alarms/safety settings to controlling my ATO, skimmer, return pump, powerheads, heater, lights, adding NET control, amongst many other things. It most certainly beats having several switched power strips and the mess that comes with that.

I can also monitor my power consumption. I only have one outlet available for my entire tank, so until I have a dedicated circuit for it, I like to know how much amperage I'm drawing.

I know the Apex is fancier than the ReefKeeper and seems to be the preferred controller if you can afford it. I don't think I'd start another tank without a controller of some sort.

[CindyK]

This is a great thread. I've considered pulling the plug on a controller also, and read multiple threads in which reefers swear by their controller but don't really say why, only that they wouldn't set up a tank without one. Can some of you please continue to explain what exactly you can do with your controller that you weren't previously doing with timers, etc, other than remote monitoring? (I get how getting an email at work would from your Apex if something is wrong would be extremely comforting).

I feel that many of the functions of a controller already exist on my tank and it makes me question whether the money is worth it. For example:

[QUOTE=PsymonStark;24877615 An example would be, put all my vortechs into a custom mode (constant 10%) for 10min while the fish & coral eat, and revert back to normal thereafter. Temp control. Switching off individual plugs, pumps, devices at the "flick of a switch" instead of pulling and finding some cable somewhere. Warnings/emails if certain parameters aren't met, is reef saving.
It's worth the price 10x fold.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

My vortechs are wireless, and they go into feed mode at the touch of a button - either I push a button on my apex or on my vortech, I'm standing right there feeding them so what's the difference? My temp is controlled by my heater setup. My ATO is controlled, well, by my ATO, I'm not sure what you do to "control" an ATO other than make sure the reservoir has water in it. Ditto the skimmer...what do you do to control it? It just runs. Most lights have a built in timer.

I'm not criticizing anyone who spends the money on a controller in any way - in fact it's the opposite. I'm trying to understand how it is value added when it seems that most of the benefits it provides are already intrinsic to the products we buy, and I would love for someone to help me understand because I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get email alerts if something goes out of whack while I'm away, but I can't justify spending $700 for that

[Jscwerve]

Originally Posted by CindyK

This is a great thread. I've considered pulling the plug on a controller also, and read multiple threads in which reefers swear by their controller but don't really say why, only that they wouldn't set up a tank without one. Can some of you please continue to explain what exactly you can do with your controller that you weren't previously doing with timers, etc, other than remote monitoring? (I get how getting an email at work would from your Apex if something is wrong would be extremely comforting).

I feel that many of the functions of a controller already exist on my tank and it makes me question whether the money is worth it. For example:



My vortechs are wireless, and they go into feed mode at the touch of a button - either I push a button on my apex or on my vortech, I'm standing right there feeding them so what's the difference? My temp is controlled by my heater setup. My ATO is controlled, well, by my ATO, I'm not sure what you do to "control" an ATO other than make sure the reservoir has water in it. Ditto the skimmer...what do you do to control it? It just runs. Most lights have a built in timer.

I'm not criticizing anyone who spends the money on a controller in any way - in fact it's the opposite. I'm trying to understand how it is value added when it seems that most of the benefits it provides are already intrinsic to the products we buy, and I would love for someone to help me understand because I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to get email alerts if something goes out of whack while I'm away, but I can't justify spending $700 for that

My exact way of thinking before I jumped on the controller wagon. I'll explain some.

For my feed time, I leave my powerheads on, but turn off my skimmer and return pump. I used to do this manually with two switched outlets on a power strip. No, not a big problem. After feeding time I'd turn on my return pump, wait a while, then turn the skimmer back on. Once in a while forgetting to turn the skimmer back on as well. With the controller, one button and they both go off without having to open my stand. Then after a set time the return comes back on automatically and after a set amount of time, so does the skimmer. Easier for me, and for anyone else taking care of my tank as I travel a lot.

For water change times, I also turn off my powerheads as the water gets low enough in the display that they would splash water everywhere. I have a second standby mode that has a time duration setup for how long it takes my typically to drain and refill water, then everything comes back on in time. I also like to turn my heaters off during water changes as I've forgotten to before and while draining the sump had heaters come out of the water. It is NOT recommended. Now I don't even think about it.

Heaters fail ALL THE TIME. They often fail ON. Having an outlet controlled to turn off if a certain temp is reached can be INVALUABLE.

ATO: I had different ATO systems, they all work just fine. Having it integrated into the controller is nice though as stated earlier, I have it programmed to turn off when I'm doing maintenance or feeding. One less switch to flip. I've also added a float and alarm on my ATO reservoir in case I forget to fill it up it won't burn the pump out.

I also have alarms set if say a powerhead for some reason starts to draw too much current. That means that perhaps an urchin or something ate through the wiring and it is leaking electricity into the tank. It will shut off that component.

Things that my controller have replaced:
1. Skimmer delay timer
2. ATO (and improved capability)
3. Heater controller
4. Manual light controls (I use cheapo chinese LEDs that I now ramp up and down with my controller)
5. I've eliminated several power strips and wiring mess in my sump.
6. I now know my PH, temp, etc at a glance.

Yes, as you stated, a lot of this control is available in the individual parts of the tank equipment already. So if you added all the $$ that you would spend on a heater controller, ATO, PH controller, timers, strips, relays, etc, is it really that much of a stretch just to get a controller instead? Yes, the Apex is very nice if you have the $$. You can do everything I use mine for on a controller that is less than $300.

No, a controller is absolutely not needed, but it is really nice to have and once you get one, you will not go back.

[eder10986]

Originally Posted by Jscwerve

My exact way of thinking before I jumped on the controller wagon. I'll explain some.



For my feed time, I leave my powerheads on, but turn off my skimmer and return pump. I used to do this manually with two switched outlets on a power strip. No, not a big problem. After feeding time I'd turn on my return pump, wait a while, then turn the skimmer back on. Once in a while forgetting to turn the skimmer back on as well. With the controller, one button and they both go off without having to open my stand. Then after a set time the return comes back on automatically and after a set amount of time, so does the skimmer. Easier for me, and for anyone else taking care of my tank as I travel a lot.



For water change times, I also turn off my powerheads as the water gets low enough in the display that they would splash water everywhere. I have a second standby mode that has a time duration setup for how long it takes my typically to drain and refill water, then everything comes back on in time. I also like to turn my heaters off during water changes as I've forgotten to before and while draining the sump had heaters come out of the water. It is NOT recommended. Now I don't even think about it.



Heaters fail ALL THE TIME. They often fail ON. Having an outlet controlled to turn off if a certain temp is reached can be INVALUABLE.



ATO: I had different ATO systems, they all work just fine. Having it integrated into the controller is nice though as stated earlier, I have it programmed to turn off when I'm doing maintenance or feeding. One less switch to flip. I've also added a float and alarm on my ATO reservoir in case I forget to fill it up it won't burn the pump out.



I also have alarms set if say a powerhead for some reason starts to draw too much current. That means that perhaps an urchin or something ate through the wiring and it is leaking electricity into the tank. It will shut off that component.



Things that my controller have replaced:

1. Skimmer delay timer

2. ATO (and improved capability)

3. Heater controller

4. Manual light controls (I use cheapo chinese LEDs that I now ramp up and down with my controller)

5. I've eliminated several power strips and wiring mess in my sump.

6. I now know my PH, temp, etc at a glance.



Yes, as you stated, a lot of this control is available in the individual parts of the tank equipment already. So if you added all the $$ that you would spend on a heater controller, ATO, PH controller, timers, strips, relays, etc, is it really that much of a stretch just to get a controller instead? Yes, the Apex is very nice if you have the $$. You can do everything I use mine for on a controller that is less than $300.



No, a controller is absolutely not needed, but it is really nice to have and once you get one, you will not go back.

+1^^^

Couldn't have said it better.

To further entice you I purchased a reef keeper elite just because I wanted to save a few dollars and while it worked perfectly fine, the interface and wireless compatibility were heavily lacking.

Took a nose dive and got a great deal on a used apex and will never go back.

For example, I'm having an issue with current being drawn and tripping my breaker. I'm out of town and my neighbor has been feeding my fish.
Breaker tripped and I got an alert and had my neighbor fix or issue.

Without the apex I would come home today to a dead tank with well over 2K in livestock and corals.


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[Rod1972a]

worths every Dollar spent on it. I will never have a reef without it.

[ca1ore]

I would advise anyone thinking about using an Apex, or any other controller, to think it through. While mine has been very reliable in the three years I have had it, there are horror stories about folks who had put too much 'faith' in it and lost a tank when it failed. This 'single point of failure' can be worked around though. Other than not rushing, my single most useful learning in this hobby has been that redundancy is your friend. I'm more invested in Apex than most, but I also retain some key functions outside the controller. Since I never turn it off, my main pump does not run through apex, I also maintain a separate, backup ATO and heater.

[lespaul339]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

It does introduce a 'single point of failure' though, so buy and use with that in mind.

This. And that's why I just prefer to have everything separate. Sure it would be nice to have a controller, but I can get by without just fine.

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

I would advise anyone thinking about using an Apex, or any other controller, to think it through. While mine has been very reliable in the three years I have had it, there are horror stories about folks who had put too much 'faith' in it and lost a tank when it failed. This 'single point of failure' can be worked around though. Other than not rushing, my single most useful learning in this hobby has been that redundancy is your friend. I'm more invested in Apex than most, but I also retain some key functions outside the controller. Since I never turn it off, my main pump does not run through apex, I also maintain a separate, backup ATO and heater.

Agreed. This is why I like choosing components that know how to work themselves if the Apex is down: heaters with built-in thermostats, Vortech pumps, AP700, Tunze Osmolator, etc.

And FWIW, it looks like Neptune got the message too. The upcoming FMM module, for example, is capable of running standalone.

[Jscwerve]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

I would advise anyone thinking about using an Apex, or any other controller, to think it through. While mine has been very reliable in the three years I have had it, there are horror stories about folks who had put too much 'faith' in it and lost a tank when it failed. This 'single point of failure' can be worked around though. Other than not rushing, my single most useful learning in this hobby has been that redundancy is your friend. I'm more invested in Apex than most, but I also retain some key functions outside the controller. Since I never turn it off, my main pump does not run through apex, I also maintain a separate, backup ATO and heater.

I don't have experience with the Apex, so I can't speak on the subject of the "single point of failure" on that type of system.

As far as the ReefKeeper goes, when you are setting up your power bars, you set default settings for each outlet if the controller itself gets disconnected or dies.

Spreading your equipment among 2-3 different power strips (RK only has 4 outlet bars) eliminates any "single point failure" possibility save for complete power loss which is a whole different problem. Even if one of the power strips or the controller itself completely fails, the rest will go on in their default setting. Planning your pumps plugs knowing this eliminates some of the concern of causing a crash. I know my tank can live indefinitely without a return pump as long as the powerheads are on and vice-versa, therefore they are not on the same power bar.

Heater, yes, too many horror stories. I actually have a heater controller plugged into the reef controller as a redundant failsafe.

ATO I never saw as that big of a deal. If it got stuck on or off (in my system), if it dumped the entire reservoir into the tank or didn't work for several days, it wouldn't make much of a difference. (5 gallons out of 150 won't swing parameters to any extreme). If you dose kalk through your ATO, then there may be some concern.

[CindyK]

Thank you to EVERYONE for your thoughtful responses; this was exactly the sort of input I was hoping for.

So it sounds like the pros are ease of equipment control, remote alerts, instant access to parameters.

Cons: single point of failure, initial cost, lack of built-in redundancy (which, if you decide you want it, further increases cost).

Thanks again, great food for thought.

[ca1ore]

The single point of failure is the central controller, whether APEX, reefkeeper or Ted's Awesome Reef Controllitator. Not saying with a modern controller that many of the cons of yesteryear haven't been overcome; heck I use one. I just think it is foolish to to put 'too many eggs' in that single basket.

Edit: one of my New Years resolutions is to use more idioms ....

[ktownhero]

Originally Posted by Jscwerve

I don't have experience with the Apex, so I can't speak on the subject of the "single point of failure" on that type of system.

As far as the ReefKeeper goes, when you are setting up your power bars, you set default settings for each outlet if the controller itself gets disconnected or dies.

You do the same for the Apex.

[risin]

Worth every penny. If I couldn't have one I would tear the tank down.

[jonwright]

Spof is why I gave a Profilux. It has individual cards that can be replaced in case of a single component failure. You can also configure outlets to be on or off in case the compute unit loses power or goes out.

Mine doses, ATO, and temp (heaters and fans). It's nice to know what the ph is and know that I know what's going on. I have a AWC process with a stenner pump also with float valve that won't let the pump run when the new sea water tank is low. It also runs solenoids so that when I'm filling the new sea water tank and the ATO calls for water it shuts down the nsw water and allows the ATO to run.

I also have a timer to turn off the skimmer only if I want to feed the corals. Plus a few different feeding programs. This turns off pumps and varies the powerheads to my wishes. It also controls the power heads for wave/random action.

All this is done in a single interface which is very convenient.

Plus stuff like turning off the mh lights if the tank gets too hot, alarms for ATO running too long, alarms for ph swings, etc etc. it won't run ATO if salinity is too low, skimmer delay whenever the main pump is turned off for any reason. Stuff like that.

Plus it can do AWC for you with a couple pumps and float valves with its default programming.

Kinda like a bunch of stuff just adds up after a while to hopefully take some of the tedious tasks go quicker and it's there always watching to keep things in check.

Having said that, is all that worth $1,000? I did the math. You can do all that with individual components, yeah. It's a bit cheaper to llet your computer do it all for you. (Temp, dose, wave, ATO,). And I'm really not worried about my entire unit going castors up. I may need to replace the ph interface card, but I don't have to send the entire unit back.

So yeah. I'm good with it. I bought all of my stuff used so...I'm very happy.