Random day time forming bubbles on surfaces!!!!

Jim28fl · 01/27/2017, 07:48 PM

Just what the title says. I'm a six yr old successful reefer. Right now this is occurring in a two yr old 550 gallon system with 300 gallon display of well cured marcorock rock work. attached 90 lps tank "lower flow n light" and 75 SPS tank dual 250 MH and xr30w radios and high flow. My Frag colors indicate higher nutrients in the system with slight brown n green tendencies vs desired colors.

The problem is anywhere there is light and is mostly happening in day time of light cycle and mostly clears by morning lights time.

The recent changes are 3 months ago added 250 ml of Bio pellets "slowly". to try reduce nitrates w/o WC. Seemed to do nothing but maybe add to minor existing cyano slightly at that time but as I'm lowering the nitrates the cyano and bubbles are not going away but getting worse. I assumed it was due to nitrates and algae and bacteria growth in day time light cycle. I think the system trends on low but stable ORP, but I can't give that much credit those probes can be iffy. as compared to my other systems.

Nitrates moved from 5 to10 to 5 to 2.5 in the last 90 days with a 220 water change in 50 gallon increments of Reef crystals. which seems to do nothing but increase my ALK over all and cause more bubbles issues.
huge life reef 5 foot tall skimmer a half cup a day of out put.
I have 0 PPB of phosphates and I'm very confident of that.
other parameters are good. ATM 10.7ALK " i want 8.9-9.0DKH" but RC ran it up!" 450 ca 1300 mag 480K 2.5-3 N03 po4 0
very confident my RODI is super pure. I'm a crazy spectra pure rodi guy. and i feed pretty average.. medium fish load heavy on tangs if anything.

Frag growth good. minus the constant cleaning of the frag racks of this nuisance bubbles n cyano n diatoms with a turkey baster. The entire frag rack SPS area egg crate is crawling with diatoms strands and minor cyano. thousands of bubbles forming all over everything. not coming from the returns or a wave makers or anything. This is bacteria growth or something occurring on the surfaces due to some imbalance. maybe light spectrum but i doubt it. i measure par and keep the bulbs and lights tuned correctly based on my other systems and they have no bubbles or any of this.

The darker lower flow 90 gallon tank lps system is a blanket of red cyano on the suspended egg crate where flow is lowest anywhere in the system.

The display is starting to get a bubble ish mat on the BB bottom of the tank and misc areas today which corresponds with my mp60 being off today for maintenance. this is a flow/ lights/ food source issue that needs redirected I think. But how.

My first guesses are The bio pellets.
Second is the Reef crystals salt.
Third is the gremlins!!!

I'm not crazy concerned, and its not doing any real damage and I'm very near where I want my nitrates and about to shut down the bio pellets. I do dose 100% saturated Kalk with a starter regiment of vinegar based on "Randy holmes Farley write up on vinegar dosing" which i attribute the recent drop in nitrates to .. Vs the bio pellets which i think did nothing and are only 50% the recommended amount the tank would need at a normal rate.

I did add a reasonable amount of bio ceramic spheres to the sump to try n increase surface area for bacteria to grow in amore convenient area. opposed to the frag rack!!!

But so far other than lower nitrates from the vinegar i think to be honest. no decrease in bubbles only nitrates.

I do use a H202 reactor. namely a medium oxydator. which usually keeps dissolved oxygen at its max level and orp high. but has not been able to keep up with the large water volume in this system as it way underside and likely has no bearing on this issue good or bad.

no ozone on this system
no reverse light cycle fuge
good husbandry IMO

What are folks thoughts? I want to get this under control. I am thinking of adding a large, dark, rocks only reservoir sort of like a denitrator but higher flow to give the bacteria a place to out compete the nuance bacteria algae on the display areas. and encourage that by putting my vinegar ato water straight into that rocks area before the sump or other areas. i don't fully understand why this is occurring so bad. i assumed it was nitrates.

Joche · 01/28/2017, 07:52 AM

Seems like you've dismissed it already, but I can't think of anything other that saturation from photosynthetic organisms which would explained why it occurs during the day and dissipates by morning and why you have 0 Phosphates and lowering nitrates. Maybe someone else can help you out. Mostly posted so this doesn't get lost under new posts as I know it can be frustrating to have unknowns even when they don't seem to do harm.

Have you checked pH and ORP specifically before and after the bubbles appear?

Timfish · 01/28/2017, 08:28 AM

I think you're seeing some of the clean water cyano like Lungbia start to show up. And I think you're keeping your phosphate levels too low (only a tiny fraction of reefs have PO4 levels belw .05 and average is .13 mg/l) and the browning you're seeing is not an increase in zooxanthellae but some kind of reaction the corals are having to changes in the algae/microbial changes.

Jim28fl · 01/29/2017, 10:48 AM

Great ideas. This is new to me anyone with more info on this??"some of the clean water cyano like Lungbia"

I suspect the bubbles are oxygen. There is not smell. The ph swing is 8.12-8.33 daily and pretty normal.. the orp doesnt show large swings. but i can't say i trust this probe as much as i do one on a different system i have. it always seems to react counter intuitive to the way my other probe behaves when similar husbandry chores are done. Ie doesnt drop much when i refill the H2o2 solution in my oxydator. and doesnt drop as much when i feed. I suspect a weak or failing probe. or a much more stable environment than the other tank. which is possible and not likely in my mind to provide quality information either way, just more variables.

I'm going to do a 120 gallon water change today. see if i notice any changes and i believe ill remove 50% of the bio pellets in a few days. those to me are the most likely sources of the increasing issue.

I haven't read many dino and cyano treads. maybe there is something common and simple i don't know about leading to this. other than "light n flow" i use same foods and all that as in the other four systems. this is just the biggest and has the largest live stock "coral population" which i realize is live stock just as fish are to some degree. i may also try and increase random flow as well.. which is never a bad thing but since it happening in all areas during the light cycle irrelevant of light type or flow. I suspect something in the water out of whack.

I still fall back to i need to create a place for this bacteria and micro algae to redirect its attention. and a type to out compelete it elsewhere for what ever its eating in the Water column.

I sort of suspect silicate or something for the salt or bio pellets.

I'll try and discontinue my po4 media for a bit, incase its a red field ratio type thing. which is very possible as I use small amounts of very aggressing media called Po4x4 which i have found is very very effective.

01/27/2017, 07:48 PM	#1
Jim28fl Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: lake nona area Posts: 11	Random day time forming bubbles on surfaces!!!! Just what the title says. I'm a six yr old successful reefer. Right now this is occurring in a two yr old 550 gallon system with 300 gallon display of well cured marcorock rock work. attached 90 lps tank "lower flow n light" and 75 SPS tank dual 250 MH and xr30w radios and high flow. My Frag colors indicate higher nutrients in the system with slight brown n green tendencies vs desired colors. The problem is anywhere there is light and is mostly happening in day time of light cycle and mostly clears by morning lights time. The recent changes are 3 months ago added 250 ml of Bio pellets "slowly". to try reduce nitrates w/o WC. Seemed to do nothing but maybe add to minor existing cyano slightly at that time but as I'm lowering the nitrates the cyano and bubbles are not going away but getting worse. I assumed it was due to nitrates and algae and bacteria growth in day time light cycle. I think the system trends on low but stable ORP, but I can't give that much credit those probes can be iffy. as compared to my other systems. Nitrates moved from 5 to10 to 5 to 2.5 in the last 90 days with a 220 water change in 50 gallon increments of Reef crystals. which seems to do nothing but increase my ALK over all and cause more bubbles issues. huge life reef 5 foot tall skimmer a half cup a day of out put. I have 0 PPB of phosphates and I'm very confident of that. other parameters are good. ATM 10.7ALK " i want 8.9-9.0DKH" but RC ran it up!" 450 ca 1300 mag 480K 2.5-3 N03 po4 0 very confident my RODI is super pure. I'm a crazy spectra pure rodi guy. and i feed pretty average.. medium fish load heavy on tangs if anything. Frag growth good. minus the constant cleaning of the frag racks of this nuisance bubbles n cyano n diatoms with a turkey baster. The entire frag rack SPS area egg crate is crawling with diatoms strands and minor cyano. thousands of bubbles forming all over everything. not coming from the returns or a wave makers or anything. This is bacteria growth or something occurring on the surfaces due to some imbalance. maybe light spectrum but i doubt it. i measure par and keep the bulbs and lights tuned correctly based on my other systems and they have no bubbles or any of this. The darker lower flow 90 gallon tank lps system is a blanket of red cyano on the suspended egg crate where flow is lowest anywhere in the system. The display is starting to get a bubble ish mat on the BB bottom of the tank and misc areas today which corresponds with my mp60 being off today for maintenance. this is a flow/ lights/ food source issue that needs redirected I think. But how. My first guesses are The bio pellets. Second is the Reef crystals salt. Third is the gremlins!!! I'm not crazy concerned, and its not doing any real damage and I'm very near where I want my nitrates and about to shut down the bio pellets. I do dose 100% saturated Kalk with a starter regiment of vinegar based on "Randy holmes Farley write up on vinegar dosing" which i attribute the recent drop in nitrates to .. Vs the bio pellets which i think did nothing and are only 50% the recommended amount the tank would need at a normal rate. I did add a reasonable amount of bio ceramic spheres to the sump to try n increase surface area for bacteria to grow in amore convenient area. opposed to the frag rack!!! But so far other than lower nitrates from the vinegar i think to be honest. no decrease in bubbles only nitrates. I do use a H202 reactor. namely a medium oxydator. which usually keeps dissolved oxygen at its max level and orp high. but has not been able to keep up with the large water volume in this system as it way underside and likely has no bearing on this issue good or bad. no ozone on this system no reverse light cycle fuge good husbandry IMO What are folks thoughts? I want to get this under control. I am thinking of adding a large, dark, rocks only reservoir sort of like a denitrator but higher flow to give the bacteria a place to out compete the nuance bacteria algae on the display areas. and encourage that by putting my vinegar ato water straight into that rocks area before the sump or other areas. i don't fully understand why this is occurring so bad. i assumed it was nitrates.

01/28/2017, 08:28 AM	#3
Timfish Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 1,985	I think you're seeing some of the clean water cyano like Lungbia start to show up. And I think you're keeping your phosphate levels too low (only a tiny fraction of reefs have PO4 levels belw .05 and average is .13 mg/l) and the browning you're seeing is not an increase in zooxanthellae but some kind of reaction the corals are having to changes in the algae/microbial changes. __________________ "Our crystal clear aquaria come nowhere close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs" Charles Delbeek

01/28/2017, 07:52 AM	#2
Joche Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 72	Seems like you've dismissed it already, but I can't think of anything other that saturation from photosynthetic organisms which would explained why it occurs during the day and dissipates by morning and why you have 0 Phosphates and lowering nitrates. Maybe someone else can help you out. Mostly posted so this doesn't get lost under new posts as I know it can be frustrating to have unknowns even when they don't seem to do harm. Have you checked pH and ORP specifically before and after the bubbles appear?

01/29/2017, 10:48 AM	#4
Jim28fl Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: lake nona area Posts: 11	Great ideas. This is new to me anyone with more info on this??"some of the clean water cyano like Lungbia" I suspect the bubbles are oxygen. There is not smell. The ph swing is 8.12-8.33 daily and pretty normal.. the orp doesnt show large swings. but i can't say i trust this probe as much as i do one on a different system i have. it always seems to react counter intuitive to the way my other probe behaves when similar husbandry chores are done. Ie doesnt drop much when i refill the H2o2 solution in my oxydator. and doesnt drop as much when i feed. I suspect a weak or failing probe. or a much more stable environment than the other tank. which is possible and not likely in my mind to provide quality information either way, just more variables. I'm going to do a 120 gallon water change today. see if i notice any changes and i believe ill remove 50% of the bio pellets in a few days. those to me are the most likely sources of the increasing issue. I haven't read many dino and cyano treads. maybe there is something common and simple i don't know about leading to this. other than "light n flow" i use same foods and all that as in the other four systems. this is just the biggest and has the largest live stock "coral population" which i realize is live stock just as fish are to some degree. i may also try and increase random flow as well.. which is never a bad thing but since it happening in all areas during the light cycle irrelevant of light type or flow. I suspect something in the water out of whack. I still fall back to i need to create a place for this bacteria and micro algae to redirect its attention. and a type to out compelete it elsewhere for what ever its eating in the Water column. I sort of suspect silicate or something for the salt or bio pellets. I'll try and discontinue my po4 media for a bit, incase its a red field ratio type thing. which is very possible as I use small amounts of very aggressing media called Po4x4 which i have found is very very effective.