Is My Tank on the Verge of Crashing?

[ChameleonNYSea]

Hey all,

I recently (1 week ago) dosed the appropriate amount of Chemiclean in order to combat a terrible Cyano outbreak. I thought that I was going to lose most of my corals due to them being smothered by the Cyano. In order to prevent another terrible Cyano outbreak, I installed two 600 gph power heads to bring my total water flow to 1600 GPH in a 75 gallon tank. After 72 hours, I performed a 20% water change as directed per instructions.

Now, since all of the Cyano is gone, I am experiencing a diatom bloom. (The tank is 3 1/2 months old). I am planning on getting 5 Cerriths to help knock that out also.

Fast forward to today, and some of my corals are not looking to great. My Xenia stopped pulsing, and they are retracted (they still retain their grayish color, and have not turned black). My star polyps have also retracted. 70% of one of my zoanthid colonies is closed up. (The other colony seems to be doing fine). Part of my hammer coral is retracting, but another head on the same skeleton seems to be doing fine. My torch coral seems to be doing fine. Additionally, a Condy anemone is retracting more than usual (I know I will get some hate regarding this, but it has been in the tank February and has survived so far.) (It usually cycles through puffing up and retracting, but this seems like a prolonged retracting phase). My rainbow acans seem to be doing fine also.

Does anyone have any ideas about why this is happening? I don't have a protein skimmer, but just replaced my carbon to try and soak up all of the extra Chemiclean in the system. Is there still some Chemiclean that may be affecting the corals? Are they having trouble adjusting to the new waterflow? Any other reasons? Does it seem like my tank is going to crash soon? Did the Cyano knock them out for good?

Thanks.

[Reef_Chief]

What are your parameters?

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[Reef_Chief]

Any fish in this tank?

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[mcgyvr]

First...relax.... Take a deep breath..
Welcome to a new tank...

Please post all the current known parameters? salinity? alk? cal? mag? nitrate? phosphate? temp?

In general what you are experiencing is probably pretty darn normal..
Cyano/diatoms/algae WILL happen in the first few months of a reef tank and should not be a cause for alarm at all provided you are doing regular maintenance/water changes,etc...

In general its not really a good idea to get a bunch of corals and throw them into a new "immature" tank.. You should really wait until the "ugly stages" pass and you can maintain stable water parameters.. A tank can easily take 8 months or more to become "established/mature"... Thats not to say you can't add stuff before that but around that mark things usually get much easier/stable,etc.. and the risks are far less..

But here we are..

You have what we would call "low flow" in your tank and you should really be shooting for 30 times the display tank at a minimum.. So you want easily in excess of 2000GPH flowing around in there.. 30-50x is a good starting point.. Some SPS/high flow coral tanks can run 75-100x..

Your treatment for cyano may have caused the oxygen levels to be depleted some so lets address that first.. I'm going to assume you don't have a sump/overflow?
If so aim one of the powerheads towards the surface of the water to create some turbulence there.. That will help oxygenate the water if that may be one of the problems.

If you have a small air pump/air stone adding that wouldn't be a bad idea either..

Or your parameters aren't stable and the corals are just reacting to that.. test..test..test..

I kind of doubt its a flow thing since you have so little.. But if you are violently blowing anything around. move it..

But I'd bet that if you just give it time, keep up with water changes, keep those parameters stable, etc... it will all work out just fine..

[sdbc]

I have read on multiple sites that a mixed reef should have about 20x flow, so you sound in good shape now (it must have been almost nonexistent before). I agree with mcgyvr to just give it some time, move any corals getting pummelled by flow and keep up with your water changes. Unless your corals start to go downhill, leave things alone for a month and see where things are at then. It's much easier said than done, but try.

[zsuman101]

get a skimmer period

[petenick]

Are you using a sump? If so, a used skimmer from someone in your local reef club or Craigslist would be a cheap and really good investment! If not using a sump, I would recommend adding a HOB skimmer. Is the tank getting a lot of sunlight? That has caused cyano problems for me in the past.

[billdogg]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

First...relax.... Take a deep breath..
Welcome to a new tank...

Please post all the current known parameters? salinity? alk? cal? mag? nitrate? phosphate? temp?

In general what you are experiencing is probably pretty darn normal..
Cyano/diatoms/algae WILL happen in the first few months of a reef tank and should not be a cause for alarm at all provided you are doing regular maintenance/water changes,etc...

In general its not really a good idea to get a bunch of corals and throw them into a new "immature" tank.. You should really wait until the "ugly stages" pass and you can maintain stable water parameters.. A tank can easily take 8 months or more to become "established/mature"... Thats not to say you can't add stuff before that but around that mark things usually get much easier/stable,etc.. and the risks are far less..

But here we are..

You have what we would call "low flow" in your tank and you should really be shooting for 30 times the display tank at a minimum.. So you want easily in excess of 2000GPH flowing around in there.. 30-50x is a good starting point.. Some SPS/high flow coral tanks can run 75-100x..

Your treatment for cyano may have caused the oxygen levels to be depleted some so lets address that first.. I'm going to assume you don't have a sump/overflow?
If so aim one of the powerheads towards the surface of the water to create some turbulence there.. That will help oxygenate the water if that may be one of the problems.

If you have a small air pump/air stone adding that wouldn't be a bad idea either..

Or your parameters aren't stable and the corals are just reacting to that.. test..test..test..

I kind of doubt its a flow thing since you have so little.. But if you are violently blowing anything around. move it..

But I'd bet that if you just give it time, keep up with water changes, keep those parameters stable, etc... it will all work out just fine..

Once again, mcgyvr and I are on the same page. You a currently at ~21x turnover in your tank (1600gph/75 = 21.33) and since most power heads are a bit over rated, probably less than that. I would add at least one more, and have all of them about 1/3 of the way down from the water line angled up so that the water surface is getting constantly churned. A picture of your tank would help as well. IME, Cyano starts in areas of poor flow and can quickly spread - especially in newer tanks. (it's a fairly normal part of "new tank syndrome")

Are you using ro/di water? If not you should consider making the switch - tap water can certainly contribute to a host of various issues, cyanobacteria being just one of them.

When you do water changes - how much, and are you cleaning the sand as well? And how deep/how fine is the sand?

The more information you can give us the better we will be able to help.

*edit* - FWIW - my "mixed reef" is at ~ 80x turnover and there are still a couple places that could use a bit more flow

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

First...relax.... Take a deep breath..
Welcome to a new tank...

Please post all the current known parameters? salinity? alk? cal? mag? nitrate? phosphate? temp?

In general what you are experiencing is probably pretty darn normal..
Cyano/diatoms/algae WILL happen in the first few months of a reef tank and should not be a cause for alarm at all provided you are doing regular maintenance/water changes,etc...

In general its not really a good idea to get a bunch of corals and throw them into a new "immature" tank.. You should really wait until the "ugly stages" pass and you can maintain stable water parameters.. A tank can easily take 8 months or more to become "established/mature"... Thats not to say you can't add stuff before that but around that mark things usually get much easier/stable,etc.. and the risks are far less..

But here we are..

You have what we would call "low flow" in your tank and you should really be shooting for 30 times the display tank at a minimum.. So you want easily in excess of 2000GPH flowing around in there.. 30-50x is a good starting point.. Some SPS/high flow coral tanks can run 75-100x..

Your treatment for cyano may have caused the oxygen levels to be depleted some so lets address that first.. I'm going to assume you don't have a sump/overflow?
If so aim one of the powerheads towards the surface of the water to create some turbulence there.. That will help oxygenate the water if that may be one of the problems.

If you have a small air pump/air stone adding that wouldn't be a bad idea either..

Or your parameters aren't stable and the corals are just reacting to that.. test..test..test..

I kind of doubt its a flow thing since you have so little.. But if you are violently blowing anything around. move it..

But I'd bet that if you just give it time, keep up with water changes, keep those parameters stable, etc... it will all work out just fine..

This reply brought to mind a statement and a question.

Statement: My 75 is also only a few months old. However, I selected low light corals, and I am running (you guessed it) low lights. There is, consequently, nothing but a slight green tinge on my rocks. So, while I agree with your assessment, it does come with caveats.

Question: How in the heck can you run 2000 gph in a 75 and still avoid directly blasting the crap out of corals (as we are usually told not to do). Many softies and LPS don't like getting blasted in the face...from what I understand. I'm asking because I have all softies and LPS frags (xenia, mushrooms, zoas, paly, GSP) All are open and full colored. All look healthy to me, and some are actually visibly growing (xenia has small stalks starting to come out of the central stalk, zoas has a third head coming out).

Currently I have some "came with the tank", local fish store style, BS led that looks to my eye like about 1-2 watts per gallon (par meter on the way because I need to know), and 1 900 gph powerhead.

The obvious answer is, if it's working don't mess with it. But I wonder if I were to increase the flow would that positively impact my corals and cause something good to happen? I am considering getting slightly brighter lights. But since I am battling out of control algae in my 180 which currently has much brighter light over it...if I do increase the lighting on my 75 it will be very gradually. I love the way this tank looks, and I don't want to mess it up with a bunch of algae all over the place.

Oh...I also broke another "rule" and have a bi-color angel, a white tail dwarf angel, and a blue damsel in that tank. So far...so good. :-)

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

Question: How in the heck can you run 2000 gph in a 75 and still avoid directly blasting the crap out of corals (as we are usually told not to do). Many softies and LPS don't like getting blasted in the face...from what I understand.

EASILY... I run in excess of 2000 GPH on my 40B tank and I even have very fine sand.. and I'd like to run far more (but that sand is the limiting factor now)

Like billdog said I run my multiple powerheads about 1/3" down from the top slightly pointed up (one towards the front of the tank and one near the back).. The "blast" goes over the tops of all the corals and then hits the far wall and rolls down and back to return to the powerhead intakes.. (so a big clockwise swirl going from left to right on the top and right to left on the bottom as it returns)

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

But I wonder if I were to increase the flow would that positively impact my corals and cause something good to happen? I am considering getting slightly brighter lights. But since I am battling out of control algae in my 180 which currently has much brighter light over it...if I do increase the lighting on my 75 it will be very gradually. I love the way this tank looks, and I don't want to mess it up with a bunch of algae all over the place.

Oh...I also broke another "rule" and have a bi-color angel, a white tail dwarf angel, and a blue damsel in that tank. So far...so good. :-)

absolutely more flow would probably be beneficial..

As to algae.. There is more to it than just light as I'm sure you are aware.. Keeping nutrients low (but not zero and in the redfield ratio if possible is the best defense against algae)

Of course.. With a new tank algae is basically part of the "challenge/fun".. Once a tank hits the 8+month mark or so (mature) they get much easier to maintain/keep algae free,etc... All this provided you have been keeping your nutrients low via water changes/export methods/sufficient rock and bacteria,etc.....

I'm now a big fan of waiting for corals until the tank is mature/stable.. It just makes it SO much easier to take care of and get through the "uglies" without having to worry about algae on corals, fighting cyano,etc...
Yes it SUCKS to wait.. But again.. NOTHING good happens fast in reefing..

[Elricsfate]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

absolutely more flow would probably be beneficial..

As to algae.. There is more to it than just light as I'm sure you are aware.. Keeping nutrients low (but not zero and in the redfield ratio if possible is the best defense against algae)

Of course.. With a new tank algae is basically part of the "challenge/fun".. Once a tank hits the 8+month mark or so (mature) they get much easier to maintain/keep algae free,etc... All this provided you have been keeping your nutrients low via water changes/export methods/sufficient rock and bacteria,etc.....

I'm now a big fan of waiting for corals until the tank is mature/stable.. It just makes it SO much easier to take care of and get through the "uglies" without having to worry about algae on corals, fighting cyano,etc...
Yes it SUCKS to wait.. But again.. NOTHING good happens fast in reefing..

I have been testing regularly, feeding sparingly, running a skimmer, etc. Thus far I have had no issues whatsoever (with this tank).

I agree with the taking things slow philosophy. Which is why there are only 3 fish (and likely will continue to be only 3 fish) in this tank.

My big problem was tring to start with a 180 full of fish, inverts, corals, etc... I couldn't keep all the balls in the air. So I put the corals in the 75 and made the 180 a FOWLR tank. Thus far that approach seems to be reaping some benefits.

I'm considering the Gyre. After your comments on flow..I am considering it more intently.

[jmm]

Change more water.

[ChameleonNYSea]

My last readings for my water: (I ran out of some test kits. I have some ordered API test kits that should arrive when I return from vacation.)
pH: 8.4-8.6
Ammonia: 0
PO4: .25 (probably a false reading since there is tons of algae)

Would Hanna water checkers be a wise investment? They are a bit expensive at $50 each. Has anyone had any really good/terrible experiences with them? How often do they need to be replaced.

[ChameleonNYSea]

Originally Posted by Reef_Chief

Any fish in this tank?

Current Stock List:
2 Ocellaris Clowns
2 Green Chromis
1 Firefish
3 Lyretail Anthias

[ChameleonNYSea]

Coral Stock List:
2 zoanthid colonies (~15-20 polyps on each)
1 pulsing Xenia colony (no longer pulsing)
1 hammer coral colony (3-4 heads)
1 euphelia torch
1 Rainbow Acan frag (4 heads)
1 star polyp frag

Other Inverts:
4 Nassarius Snails
2 Banded Trochus Snails
1 Turban Snail
1 Condylactis Anemone
1 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp
1 Peppermint Shrimp
1 Feather Duster Worm

[hann1bal]

I agree with the posts above. Mostly GIVE IT TIME. I was in the same boat and frankly discouraged. After listening to the posts on this forum, I increased my flow and water changes and the cyano disappeared and has never returned.

This is a slow motion hobby so just keep up water changes and slowly add improvements as you can afford them.

99% of issues can be fixed by increase water changes and proper husbanrdy.

[slay]

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

Question: How in the heck can you run 2000 gph in a 75 and still avoid directly blasting the crap out of corals (as we are usually told not to do). Many softies and LPS don't like getting blasted in the face...from what I understand. I'm asking because I have all softies and LPS frags (xenia, mushrooms, zoas, paly, GSP) All are open and full colored. All look healthy to me, and some are actually visibly growing (xenia has small stalks starting to come out of the central stalk, zoas has a third head coming out).

There's a world of difference between circulation type powerheads (which use larger propellers to move water) and the "old" style direct flow powerheads (which use small impellers to move water) that may only turn over a small volume of water per hour, but shoot it in a concentrated stream. With impeller powerheads you can have way too much flow directed at a small area of the tank and near dead spots elsewhere. With propellers you move a ton of water all over the tank all the time.

Ecotech VorTech, Hydor Koralia, Sicce, Tunze and many others make propeller powerheads that move massive amounts of water, thousands of gallons per hour (some many thousands gph) but move the water in a less concentrated way than the nozzle of a powerhead would, so you don't really blow things around unless you turn them up too high for your volume/dimensions.

Between a couple of Ecotech VorTechs and my return pump my 180 gallon has about 40-50x circulation per hour, and nothing gets blown around. Softies move gently swaying back and forth and the like. The water really moves, but it's a ton of gentle movement.

[ChameleonNYSea]

It's been two weeks, and the corals still seem to not be looking good.
The torch that was doing fine has now retracted about 75%.
The hammer coral is almost completely retracted.
Most zoanthids are doing fine.
It seems that my anemone has taken a turn for the worse, but that may be other reasons.
I have been really determined to keep very low nutrients: I use a pipettes and direct feed all fish.
I added a lawnmower blenny to help with future algae issues.

Today's water tests:
pH: 8.2-8.4
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 2
Ca: 480
kH: 7
PO4: 0.25 (probably a false since there is a lot of algae and diatoms)

Should I consider running GFO to help with the phosphate abundance?
Is two weeks enough to show a downward trend?

[mcgyvr]

Has your alkalinity been stable at 7? Its on the low side and somewhere in the 8 range would probably be better.. but stability is key

Have you done anything about flow either?

[ChameleonNYSea]

It has been stable for the past two months - I agree with you, and would like to bring it up. I have heard about using baking soda to raise the alkalinity, but it also raises pH. Would adding baking soda and lemon juice to balance out the pH be a rough cocktail for the tank?

I have not had the chance to get more power heads yet. I aimed one at the rocks and the other upwards. Now, some polyps of the GSP have come out, and the torch is looking better.

[ChameleonNYSea]

Performed 10 gallon water change.