Need Advice On Order For Cycling

[madducks42]

We're in the process of setting up a new salt water tank (Reefer 425) and we're not exactly sure how to proceed. Here's a rundown of where we currently are:

- Tank is setup in terms of plumbing, sump tank, pumps etc. We need to do a leak test on the overflow but assuming that's okay the tank should be good to go from a hardware perspective.

- For live rock we're using pukani. We soaked it in a bleach bath for a few days and then in regular water for a few more. We put the live rock in the tank about 4 days ago with RODI water and there haven't been any problems with smell and the water is pretty clear.

- Tonight we're planning on adding a little bit more water to the tank and making sure that the overflow works correctly so the water starts to cycle from the tank through the sump. We'll also be turning on the skimmer.

Here's what we're not sure about:

- When should we add the salt? Since the take is already full with RODI water we were going to do this in the tank.

- When should we add the live sand?

- What do we need to test for and when? We have testing kits for Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites, and Phosphate. Should we test for anything before adding the salt?

- We also bought some Bio-Spira to help start the cycling process. But we're not sure when we should add this in, obviously the salt should already be mixed in but what should we test for to determine when it's time to add the Bio-Spira?

Thanks for any advice!

[MrDemonicAngel]

This is a good place to start -> http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

[madducks42]

I've looked through that thread a lot over the past few weeks. I've found it very helpful in learning about specific pieces of a salt water tank but nothing in it answered my questions from this post. And going through other posts it seems like there isn't one definite way to setup and start a tank...hence my confusion about where we should go from here.

[gjustinj]

Originally Posted by madducks42

We're in the process of setting up a new salt water tank (Reefer 425) and we're not exactly sure how to proceed. Here's a rundown of where we currently are:

- Tank is setup in terms of plumbing, sump tank, pumps etc. We need to do a leak test on the overflow but assuming that's okay the tank should be good to go from a hardware perspective.

- For live rock we're using pukani. We soaked it in a bleach bath for a few days and then in regular water for a few more. We put the live rock in the tank about 4 days ago with RODI water and there haven't been any problems with smell and the water is pretty clear.

- Tonight we're planning on adding a little bit more water to the tank and making sure that the overflow works correctly so the water starts to cycle from the tank through the sump. We'll also be turning on the skimmer.

Here's what we're not sure about:

- When should we add the salt? Since the take is already full with RODI water we were going to do this in the tank.

- When should we add the live sand?

- What do we need to test for and when? We have testing kits for Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites, and Phosphate. Should we test for anything before adding the salt?

- We also bought some Bio-Spira to help start the cycling process. But we're not sure when we should add this in, obviously the salt should already be mixed in but what should we test for to determine when it's time to add the Bio-Spira?

Thanks for any advice!

Hey there,

I'm not sure how much advice I should be giving out because I am very much new to this, but I have completed cycling process successfully and using just a can filter, not a sump. Since I am new please be sure to get verification from someone much more educated here, but based on my experience here it goes..

- Tonight we're planning on adding a little bit more water to the tank and making sure that the overflow works correctly so the water starts to cycle from the tank through the sump. We'll also be turning on the skimmer.

I would leave the skimmer off as it removes a lot of 'good' while cycling your tank, once it is cycled I would then turn on the skimmer. I ran my Octo 2K Classic for about 3 days before being told to shut it off here, and I did shut it off.

- When should we add the salt? Since the take is already full with RODI water we were going to do this in the tank.

The correct way would be to mix it in a 5 gallon bucket or trash can (if you are sucking the water out into the tank). Get your temp and Salinity as close as you can. I would recommend getting a refractometer when testing your salt - I had two of those plastic ordeals and it's garbage (both were way off). After I got the refractometer I picked up some calibration solution and calibrated to 35ppm, and then got my salinity right.

Here is the thing though, if your rock has live organisms or your sand does then you do not want to mix in the tank - but if you are starting 'dry' then you can mix in the tank. Always mix less, it's easier to add then remove (but when fish or any life are in it keep it near perfect before adding)

- When should we add the live sand?

Your first question in my opinion would be when do you add live or dry rock to it? You should add your live rock to the glass (1lb per gallon) and create lots of 'cave' like holes that specific fish really enjoy having in the tank. The reason you do this is because some fish are 'diggers' and little big of sand taken out in the wrong corner could topple your design and potentially crack your glass - the odds are not that 'great', but it's best to be safe.

After adding your rock you would then add your sand, and you should have anywhere between 2-3 inches of sand bed across the bottom of your tank. This allows tiny organisms to grow under there that helps your cycle, and the health of your fish later (especially if you ever get a fish similar to a Mandarin or Goby), once your sand is down and your water/salt mix has sat for about 2 hours - it should be safe to add to the tank (be sure to add at least two power heads one on each side of the tank), it helps stir everything up. I've seen them added to buckets/trash cans on videos to help mix in those as well.

- What do we need to test for and when? We have testing kits for Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrites, and Phosphate. Should we test for anything before adding the salt?

I went out and got myself a Red Sea Marine Test. I would not worry about testing for Phosphates, Alkalinity or PH right away. The first thing you need ot test for is Ammonia, and then Nitrites and then Nitrates. The way this cycle works if you're unfamiliar is the the fish do the nasty in the water, and then nitrites eat the (Ammonia(nasty)), and then nitrate eat the nitrites. Ammonia is really bad, once you pour your bottle of yuck in there it's going to take several weeks or several months to create the cycle. I would wait a week and take your first test, and then test every night afterwards until you see this happen.

Ammonia is going to spike, be really high
Nitrites are going to spike and be really high

eventually over time your Ammonia is going to down to zero, followed by your nitrites to zero and then your Nitrates will probably go up to about 20 or more - once this occurs (after weeks or months) 30-50% water change to get those Nitrates out of there, once they are down to around 10 you are good to go! Take a bottle of your water to LFS and ask them to test your water and only add a few fish at a time so you can get a feel.

As mentioned I am really new - so I tried to put this into my experience for you, and what I've learned from these very smart people

Hope you have a lot of luck

[madducks42]

We're currently stuck because my boyfriend thinks we should test the water now and possibly do a water change before adding the salt. I think we should add the salt and the live sand and then do a test for ammonia and proceed from there. Not sure on when we should add the Bio-Spira though.

[gjustinj]

Originally Posted by madducks42

We're currently stuck because my boyfriend thinks we should test the water now and possibly do a water change before adding the salt. I think we should add the salt and the live sand and then do a test for ammonia and proceed from there. Not sure on when we should add the Bio-Spira though.

I did not realize you had water in the tank already? What have you guys done so far, and in what order?

[madducks42]

Originally Posted by gjustinj

I did not realize you had water in the tank already? What have you guys done so far, and in what order?

We cured the rock separately, it was in a bleach water mixture for a few days, then in RODI water for another week. It's been in the tank with RODI water the last week or so. Seems pretty unlikely that there is anything "live" on the live rock now. There hasn't been any smell from the tank which there would be if there was still a decent amount of organic matter on the rocks decomposing.

So as of right now there is RODI water in the tank with the live rock. We haven't started filtering the water from the tank to the sump yet but that is ready to go. We have some power heads in the tank moving water around.

Here's a picture of our tank if that helps at all.

[TYC]

Originally Posted by madducks42

We're currently stuck because my boyfriend thinks we should test the water now and possibly do a water change before adding the salt. I think we should add the salt and the live sand and then do a test for ammonia and proceed from there. Not sure on when we should add the Bio-Spira though.

U can mix the salt in tank since ur just starting, not a problem. There's nothing in there to kill/affect.

gjustinj is correct about focusing on ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Don't have to test for other chems while cycling. When u cycle a tank, u'll see ammonia first, which converts into nitrite, which then is converted to nitrate. when u start seeing nitrate, that's when cycle is coming to end.

Please watch NY Steelo's in-depth video that explains the process of cycling a tank. He has good info on his youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttR-RO7nXUE

Just whatever you guys do, please be patient and take your time. Good luck.

[TYC]

Originally Posted by madducks42

- We also bought some Bio-Spira to help start the cycling process. But we're not sure when we should add this in, obviously the salt should already be mixed in but what should we test for to determine when it's time to add the Bio-Spira?

Thanks for any advice!

you can add the Bio-Spira as soon as salinity has been brought to 1.025 and temp to 75-78... here's a chart of proper water parameters to shoot for
http://www.liveaquaria.com/PIC/article.cfm?aid=89

[scooter31707]

First of all did when you took the water out of the bleach and put it in the regular water did you add anything like Prime or Amquel and did you let it air dry before putting it in the tank? I would be cautious to use that water if you did not rinse and air dry those rocks. Once you fill the tank up add the salt to mix to the desire salinity and then add rock or sand. Depending on what fish, some liking to dig, depends on rock first or sand first.

[JUNBUG361]

Originally Posted by madducks42

we're currently stuck because my boyfriend thinks we should test the water now and possibly do a water change before adding the salt. I think we should add the salt and the live sand and then do a test for ammonia and proceed from there. Not sure on when we should add the bio-spira though.

if i'm reading this correctly. You have r/o water in your tank with dead rocks(not cured yet). No salt in the system at all. Are you setting up a saltwater tank or freshwater tank? Hopefully you let the rocks dry up prior to putting in the tank. You need saltwater & some type of circulation in the tank to start the cycle. Check water parameters next day for starting point

[Dale_M]

1. Add rock
2. Add sand
3. Fill with water
4. Test your plumbing
5. Add salt until salinity reaches 35 ppm or 1.026 sg
6. Throw in a piece of table shrimp
7. Wait... Wait... Wait...
8. After waiting a week or so, test for ammonia and nitrite.
9. When ammonia and nitrite start to decline to almost zero, nitrate will develop
10. Do 25% water change
**** at any point along the cycle process you may get any of the following: Green Hair Algae, Diatoms, Cyano (red blotchy stuff), this is NORMAL.
11. Wait... Wait... Wait... this could take 6 to 8 WEEKS for nitrates to begin to decline (but will most likely always exist in small quantities (1 to 10 ppm).
12. Do 25% water change
*** meanwhile do not forget to top off your salwater with RO/DI water as it evaporates, almost daily!
13. Ammonia zero? good, Nitrite zero? good, Nitrates low? good. Add a cleanup crew such as blue leg hermit crabs, snails, shrimp. Do a search for what makes good cleanup crews.
14. Wait... Wait... Wait... Test again.
15. Ammonia zero? good, Nitrite zero? good, Nitrates low? good. Add a fish or 2 ONLY AFTER they have been in quarantine in a different tank for a couple of weeks.
16. Lather, rinse, repeat, LOL

[TYC]

Originally Posted by madducks42

- For live rock we're using pukani. We soaked it in a bleach bath for a few days and then in regular water for a few more. We put the live rock in the tank about 4 days ago with RODI water and there haven't been any problems with smell and the water is pretty clear.

I would've diluted the bleach bath to just 1 cup of bleach but it should be ok since u say the rocks soaked in clean water for few days and there's no bleach smell now. Bleach evaporates anyway but if you want u can run the tank pump with 1 or 2 bags of chemipure for 24 hrs to clean out/polish the water.

[madducks42]

We did use a dechlorinator in the r/o water after the bleach soaking. It was in that for a few days, maybe almost a week, and then it was outside on the deck in the sun for another two days. It sat inside for another 2-3 days, just dry in a bin until we had the time to glue the pieces that we wanted together.

My main question is, is there any reason to not add salt to the tank now to start cycling? Is there anything we should check before adding salt?

[TYC]

Originally Posted by madducks42

We did use a dechlorinator in the r/o water after the bleach soaking. It was in that for a few days, maybe almost a week, and then it was outside on the deck in the sun for another two days. It sat inside for another 2-3 days, just dry in a bin until we had the time to glue the pieces that we wanted together.

My main question is, is there any reason to not add salt to the tank now to start cycling? Is there anything we should check before adding salt?

You can add salt now and turn on the heater and pump and just check for leaks.

[madducks42]

Thank you so much everyone for your responses! I know it'll be quite some time before we have any fish in the tank but I'm so excited to just have water in it because it's been sitting there empty for weeks while we worked on all the plumbing and other hardware setup. We'll add the salt and sand tonight to kick off the cycling process : )

[Stolireef]

Since you used bleach on your rock you've likely killed off anything that was alive including the bacteria. So, go ahead and add your salt directly to the tank and make sure you've got good flow from some powerheads. You're going to need about 1 cup of salt for every two gallons but start on the low side and add until you're at 1.025.

After you've got your salinity where you want it, add the sand. If you haven't already purchased it, don't bother with live sand, It really won't help much other than to put a small amount of bacteria in the water. Make sure you rinse the sand before you add it or you'll have really cloudy tank for a while.


Bio-Spira is OK but again, it'll still take some time to get a good cycle.

You can spike the cycle a little by adding some ammonia that you can get at your local Ace hardware store. Just make sure it's just ammonia and no scents or other surfactants. Bring your ammo up to about 3 ppm according to your tests. (There are some good calculators that tell you exactly how much to add). Alternatively, if you want to go au naturel, just get a medium size shrimp from the supermarket and drop it in the tank. It'll take several days to get your ammo spike started this way.

Once you have your ammo spike, start testing every couple of days. When you start seeing the ammo go down, start testing for nitrites. When they start falling start testing for nitrates. Once ammo and nitrites are at 0 for several days (if you used bio spira and pure ammo, figure at least a week), add a clean up crew. Wait another few weeks and then you can add two or three small fish. At that point, your up and running a reef tank.

Particularly early on, go very slow stocking fish. I'd try to keep it at no more than a couple of fish per month. Maybe a little less.

You'll likely go through several new tank annoyances such as cyano and diatoms. When you see something weird in your tank, ask questions here and you'll get all the info you need.

Have fun. It's great hobby and a great way to practice patience.

[Stolireef]

Oh, and the amount of sand you add is basically for appearances and for interesting critters. It doesn't do much for filtration and does require some periodic maintenance (ie. siphon vacuuming once in a while. If you are adding your rock directly to the glass bottom, just be very careful that you place it gently. Nothing will ruin your day faster than cracking the bottom of a tank.

[Dale_M]

Originally Posted by stolireef

nothing will ruin your day faster than cracking the bottom of a tank.

qotd

[Stolireef]

As always, speaking from experience. If you can make a stupid mistake in this hobby, I've made it. My rule of thumb is that if you need to use a monkey wrench or a wet-dry vac near or on a reef tank, something has gone terribly wrong.

[TYC]

Originally Posted by Stolireef

Oh, and the amount of sand you add is basically for appearances and for interesting critters. It doesn't do much for filtration and does require some periodic maintenance

Sorry but actually not quite true unless you are using Deep Sand Bed (DSB) which acts as another natural filter in combo with the live rocks. Ur basically creating a mini ocean in ur tank with a DSB and eventually it'll be self sustaining with less frequent water changes. Been using DSB with live rock without a skimmer and been working great for me. Madducks42 if u r interested in trying DSB, please read up on this great article by Ron Shimek which explains the chemistry.http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html Also with DSB u cannot put certain critters/fish (blemy) that'll disturb the sand too much and the sand size must be sugar fine... But I believe the natural chemical benefit a DSB provides is worth it, just expensive to setup but then u probably already realize that about this hobby. Using a DSB with skimmer would provide extra filtration for your tank. NY Steelo also has a good video on his YouTube page about DSB. Once his DSB tank is up and running for a while, he doesnt do water changes for months at a time!

Here's a very good concise explanation of how to cycle by Melev http://www.melevsreef.com/cycle can't get any simpler than how Marc explains it.

Just remember, in this hobby what works for others may not work for you. There are so many diff ways to keep a successful marine aquarium, u just have to dive in and start exploring and learn through experience and asking around.

Oh and dont add any sand yet until the salinity has been set to 1.025

[madducks42]

Alright so salt and sand have been added to tank and we've got the rock mostly where we want it. Salt is at 1.026, pH is 8.2, phosphates are at zero. We haven't tested for ammonia yet but I'm assuming that's going to be low or zero. We're still debating if we want to add pure ammonia to the tank or get a shrimp from the store to help kick off cycling. Power heads are in the tank, we're still playing around with currents but there is a good flow in the tank.

I have a question for y'all regarding the cleanup crew. Many if you have recommended putting in a cleanup crew before fish, but what does the cleanup crew eat? There's no live organic matter in the tank so where would the algae come from for the cleanup crew to eat?


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[Stolireef]

First, you need to go through you cycle. You add the CUC after the cycle. It eats algae and detritus in the tank. Basically keeps things tidy.

Oh, and don't bother testing for pH. Just check kH. If that's OK then your pH will be fine. kH acts as a buffer for any acid in the tank. So long as it's above about 7.5 dkH, your pH will be fine.

[madducks42]

I get that we need to cycle for at least a few weeks. But it seems that most people suggest adding a cleanup crew before fish. My question is if there is no algae in the tank, because there's nothing live in it so no way for algae to get introduced, what does the cleanup crew eat? And why do people suggest adding them before fish?


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[Stolireef]

There is algae in the tank. You just can't see it. If you want add a bit of food that's OK.

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