Looking for a energy efficient return pump.

[Ssteve]

Running a ehiem return. Not sure what model but it's several years old, a little loud and I'd like to have a backup return so I figured I would upgrade. I would also like to cut back on some of the energy consumption so I'm wondering what return would offer the best performance for a 120g tank with a single 3/4" return with split lock line into the tank?

[riveclay-boaeef2024]

I'm running a jebao dc pump on my 80 gallon and it's dead silent

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[jda]

There are not many upgrades from Ehiem.

DC pumps are fairly new and if the oldest one around was still running (not many are), then they are infants compared to other pumps. They are still too risky IMO. After they stop iterating and some have 5+ years on them, I might look at one.

Fluval SP are quiet, powerful and will run for more than a decade. Ehiem are great pumps too... perhaps just replace the impeller?

Unless you live in Arizona, south Texas or some of Florida, there are no energy savings... the few watts of energy that you save on a pump will be quickly made up by your heaters for nearly all months of the year.

[ca1ore]

Question I have is that the performance of most DC pumps against head/friction pressure is so bad, are they net gallon for net gallon actually more efficient? On a closed loop, ok, but against pressure, not so sure.

[jda]

Of course not. You nailed it. The performance gains are on the box label, not in the tank... but folks won't believe this since the manufacturer says otherwise. The transformer also eats up some energy.

I got a Coralife DC pump when they first came out (against my normal personality to wait and see) and after three failures (which they replaced), it would not move as much water as a Laguna and was only 3 watts less power at the wall and about 130W when the box said something like 90W max. Lagunas are still running and three failed DC pumps are in the trash.

[ca1ore]

Kinda what I figured. My main pump has to handle 12 feet of head pressure and a bunch of unnecessary (in retrospect) fittings. Tried a Vectra in place of the PW200; pathetic. Maybe an Abyzz would work better, but not in this or any of the thousands of alternate universes am I dropping $1,500 on a pump.

[Breadman03]

I'm running an RD3-230 on my basement return. I'm running it for the sound level, not watts saved. It's a good thing, too, because it draws about the same wattage as my Blueline 70 it replaced.

I believe the efficiency claim has traction largely because most people don't hook up a Kill-a-Watt to see what their AC pump actually pulls. Also remember that your DC pump is actually AC. Your controller converts out 60hz AC to DC, and then converts it back to AC at whatever frequency is desired for a given pump speed. At least that's how I understand it.

It still takes a certain amount of energy to perform a given amount of work.

[WLachnit]

My understanding is that a variable speed pump is always going to be more efficient due to the Affinity law? I must be missing something?

[ksed]

Originally Posted by Breadman03

I'm running an RD3-230 on my basement return. I'm running it for the sound level, not watts saved. It's a good thing, too, because it draws about the same wattage as my Blueline 70 it replaced.

I believe the efficiency claim has traction largely because most people don't hook up a Kill-a-Watt to see what their AC pump actually pulls. Also remember that your DC pump is actually AC. Your controller converts out 60hz AC to DC, and then converts it back to AC at whatever frequency is desired for a given pump speed. At least that's how I understand it.

It still takes a certain amount of energy to perform a given amount of work.

Agreed!
Most don't have a KillaWatt . It can be a useful tool.

[slief]

Originally Posted by Breadman03

I'm running an RD3-230 on my basement return. I'm running it for the sound level, not watts saved. It's a good thing, too, because it draws about the same wattage as my Blueline 70 it replaced.

I believe the efficiency claim has traction largely because most people don't hook up a Kill-a-Watt to see what their AC pump actually pulls. Also remember that your DC pump is actually AC. Your controller converts out 60hz AC to DC, and then converts it back to AC at whatever frequency is desired for a given pump speed. At least that's how I understand it.

It still takes a certain amount of energy to perform a given amount of work.

Sadly, the RD3 230 "flow pump" is not the most well suited pump for a basement setup since its not pressure rated and not designed for really high head heights. Because of high head height, you will need to run it at a higher speed to get the most flow out of it. That said, in a typical lower head height situation, they are very efficient. They are also true to their wattage. I run a pair of them and have a Kill-A-Watt meter here and have compared the displayed wattage to the Kill-A-Watt and found it to be nearly spot on. At a 7' head (including friction loss) and 150 watts, it produces the same amount of flow as a Superdart Gold which was drawing 184 watts and the RD3 also transferred much less heat.

That said, at some point next month we will have a pressure rated version of the RD3 230 as well as a new impeller/volute kit to convert an RD3 230 flow pump to the an RD3 230 Pressure pump. Depending on your head height and flow needs, it may be worth considering the pressure upgrade kit as it could allow you to run a much lower speed setting and reduce your power consumption.

More info of the RD3 pressure pumps can be found here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2637376

[ca1ore]

Scott, are there plans to have somebody 'test' this pressure rated version in high head situations? I've seen too many pumps fail to perform against claims in actual practice (which is why I've yet to move on from my panworld 200).

[jda]

Originally Posted by WLachnit

My understanding is that a variable speed pump is always going to be more efficient due to the Affinity law? I must be missing something?

What you are missing are the few more "laws" that the manufacturers don't want list or else it would make their pumps just look like any other pump. There is no real savings, so if Affinity's law is indeed pertinent, which it is in some way, there are more that also are that need to be factored in. Besides, Affinity's Law assumes that efficiency remains constant which in their own footnotes they acknowledge "is rarely exactly true."

Most manufacturers are really good about cherry picking the best, most unrealistic scenario and leaving out the real part. Sequence made a living at this... they advertised their Dart as the most energy efficient pump on the market, but it was something like 30 watts more than the Ampmaster 3000 that I was using at the time (that still runs and the motor on the Dart smoked out). Folks bought into the hype no matter how many posts I had WITH PHOTOS of the two wattages next to each other.

Red Dragon is about as honest as it gets, IMO, and take a look at their watts... about the same as any other pump.

[slief]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Scott, are there plans to have somebody 'test' this pressure rated version in high head situations? I've seen too many pumps fail to perform against claims in actual practice (which is why I've yet to move on from my panworld 200).

We don't have anybody lined up yet on our end but I am sure the feedback will be positive once they land in peoples hands. Klaus is very meticulous and thorough when it comes to testing of these pumps and the documented numbers are usually conservative.

Here is a video showing an RD3 230 being flow tested at the factory in Germany. They don't cut corners when it comes to proper flow and pressure testing. I don't think many if any DC pump manufacturers go to this extent let alone use this kind of equipment when it comes to testing pumps. One thing many overlook is the fact that friction loss is really difficult to truly calculate and I am not sure how accurate the online head loss calculators truly are. Personally, I always oversize output plumbing to reduce friction loss and make that recommendation to anybody who asks.

[ca1ore]

Count me as less 'sure', or at least possessed of a healthy degree of skepticism I do agree that all plumbing is different, however, I'd encourage RD to offer some real world testing. As a basement sump guy, too many pumps have failed to impress.

[slief]

Originally Posted by ca1ore

Count me as less 'sure', or at least possessed of a healthy degree of skepticism I do agree that all plumbing is different, however, I'd encourage RD to offer some real world testing. As a basement sump guy, too many pumps have failed to impress.

Once we get these into peoples hands here state side, it will be easy to get the desired feedback. We already have some people looking to upgrade to the pressure version because of their higher head heights. As such, best we can do is wait for these to get into peoples hands. Unfortunately, once you get into real world plumbing, true friction losses can have a significant impact as we all know. As such, the "my tank is 12' above my sump" mentality can have really skewed final results. Calculating BAR into actual head feet/pressure is easy. Calculating tank height coupled with friction loss as a result of plumbing length, pipe type, diameter, fittings etc is more akin to a science that most of us aren't well schooled in. That said, I have a high degree of confidence that the charts posted in the link in my previous reply are conservative enough that users will be pleased with the results. It is however important to review the charts and do some homework so reasonable expectations can be set for an installation since every tanks plumbing is different.

[ksed]

I have not doubt that the new RD3 will deliver. But as head pressure increases the Varable control pump will maintain it's wattage governed by the controller. With a AC pump with VFD the wattage drops as head pressure is applied. I fair test would be to have both pumps running at say 10-12 ft head then measure wattage. This how it's used in real world.
That being said as I already mention above the RD 3 is an excellent pump and look forward to some feedback.

[slief]

Originally Posted by ksed

I have not doubt that the new RD3 will deliver. But as head pressure increases the Varable control pump will maintain it's wattage governed by the controller. With a AC pump with VFD the wattage drops as head pressure is applied. I fair test would be to have both pumps running at say 10-12 ft head then measure wattage. This how it's used in real world.
That being said as I already mention above the RD 3 is an excellent pump and look forward to some feedback.

One thing I do know (as you noted) is that the wattage on the RD3 is solely based on the controller setting. Unlike many AC pumps that draw less current as the head increases, the RD3's power consumption is self regulated via the controller. If you set it at 150 watts, it draws 150 watts. It has a built in current meter that is very accurate. When I setup my two RD3 230's I verified the numbers against my Kill-A-Watt. As such, if you set it at 150 watts, it will maintain 150 watts regardless of the head. That said, when the shipment of pressure rated volutes and impellers come in, I am going to see if I can get a set for a 230 so I can do some testing here by rigging an elevated pipe of varying lengths. Since I have a two story home, it will be easy to rig something up that is pretty high in an effort to test it at varying elevations. I will be very curious as to how high I can go before it really cuts off. That said, AC based pumps like iwaki's will always have their place in this hobby for ultra high pressure applications. Especially where noise and power consumption isn't a concern.

[ca1ore]

Originally Posted by slief

Once we get these into peoples hands here state side, it will be easy to get the desired feedback. We already have some people looking to upgrade to the pressure version because of their higher head heights. As such, best we can do is wait for these to get into peoples hands. Unfortunately, once you get into real world plumbing, true friction losses can have a significant impact as we all know. As such, the "my tank is 12' above my sump" mentality can have really skewed final results. Calculating BAR into actual head feet/pressure is easy. Calculating tank height coupled with friction loss as a result of plumbing length, pipe type, diameter, fittings etc is more akin to a science that most of us aren't well schooled in. That said, I have a high degree of confidence that the charts posted in the link in my previous reply are conservative enough that users will be pleased with the results. It is however important to review the charts and do some homework so reasonable expectations can be set for an installation since every tanks plumbing is different.

Fair enough. Once I do my tank upgrade and revise my main return plumbing to alleviate some inefficiencies, I'll know better what the performance benchmark is with my PW200.

[ksed]

Sorry typo. It should have read without VFD.

[ksed]

Originally Posted by slief

One thing I do know (as you noted) is that the wattage on the RD3 is solely based on the controller setting. Unlike many AC pumps that draw less current as the head increases, the RD3's power consumption is self regulated via the controller. If you set it at 150 watts, it draws 150 watts. It has a built in current meter that is very accurate. When I setup my two RD3 230's I verified the numbers against my Kill-A-Watt. As such, if you set it at 150 watts, it will maintain 150 watts regardless of the head. That said, when the shipment of pressure rated volutes and impellers come in, I am going to see if I can get a set for a 230 so I can do some testing here by rigging an elevated pipe of varying lengths. Since I have a two story home, it will be easy to rig something up that is pretty high in an effort to test it at varying elevations. I will be very curious as to how high I can go before it really cuts off. That said, AC based pumps like iwaki's will always have their place in this hobby for ultra high pressure applications. Especially where noise and power consumption isn't a concern.

Agreed!

Agreed

[Breadman03]

Originally Posted by slief

One thing I do know (as you noted) is that the wattage on the RD3 is solely based on the controller setting. Unlike many AC pumps that draw less current as the head increases, the RD3's power consumption is self regulated via the controller. If you set it at 150 watts, it draws 150 watts. It has a built in current meter that is very accurate. When I setup my two RD3 230's I verified the numbers against my Kill-A-Watt. As such, if you set it at 150 watts, it will maintain 150 watts regardless of the head. That said, when the shipment of pressure rated volutes and impellers come in, I am going to see if I can get a set for a 230 so I can do some testing here by rigging an elevated pipe of varying lengths. Since I have a two story home, it will be easy to rig something up that is pretty high in an effort to test it at varying elevations. I will be very curious as to how high I can go before it really cuts off. That said, AC based pumps like iwaki's will always have their place in this hobby for ultra high pressure applications. Especially where noise and power consumption isn't a concern.

Karimwassef did that with a Jebao pump recently. He basically just slipped PVC together and drilled a few holes until he got the height he was interested in.