Tank cycling and Algae?

[cjpitt80]

Hi,
Forgive the length of this, but I'm new and I want to make sure I do best practices. Based on my readings, I'm not quite sure where I am with my tank's cycle. Here's the details:

80lbs CaribSea LifeRock and 40lbs AragAlive sand on top of 40lbs dry aragonite sand. 75 gal DT, 29gal sump

When I first added water and salt I had my skimmer overflowing like crazy from what I think was some uncured JB waterweld I used on the rocks. 4 days after my initial water fill I did a 80% change and ran carbon in an external filter for that time.
4 days after the water change, the skimmer calmed down and I added salt to 1.0255sg, removed the carbon, turned the skimmer off and added 8oz Dr. Tim's bacteria. (I consider this to be day 1 of cycle)

On day 2, I measured Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, everything was zero.

On day 3, I got tired of looking at an empty tank and added (5) 1" black mollies and 4 tropical crisps (I drip acclimated them for about 4hrs)

On the morning of day 4, all 5 mollies were stuck on the overflow. I removed them and they all got pulled back within 3min, (these guys aren't too smart and they're small). In the evening of day 4, all 5 were dead on the overflow. I removed 3 of the bodies, and left 2 to rot in the sump. I also added 2 larger 2.5" dalmation mollies. Day 4 numbers were zero across the board again. Day 4 the skimmer was switched back on

Days 5 and 7 tested and all 3 parameters were 0. Day 7 I added 1 frozen cube of bloodworms for the mollies.

Day 8, all parameters 0. Added 8 tropical crisps

Days 10-12 added 6ish tropical crisps (didn't count)

Day 13 Added cube of frozen blood worms. Tested, all parameters 0

Day 14. Added 4mL ammonium chloride to the system (about 80 gal total H20) This is supposed to be the 2ppm dose. I tested 30min after dosing and ammonia was 0.6ppm. No Nitrate, Nitrite.

Day 15 (yesterday) Tested Ammonia 0.8ppm Zero Nitrate or Nitrite

I'm using the Red Sea testing kit (hate matching those colors)
What's going on here? Did I miss the ammonia spike? Is the ammonia spiking now? Is it bad that the ammonia went HIGHER a day AFTER I dosed? Why did I get zero readings across the board until I added ammonia? The 2 mollies look fine. I noticed on Day 7ish or so these little brownish reddish spots in the sump. Is this my algae bloom? Is this some terrible marine ich? They seem to be ONLY on the silicone on the sump baffles. I don't see any in the display tank or on the rocks or glass surfaces. What do I do now, just wait it out? How worried should I be?

[smartwater101]

You're doing too much too fast. You should have waited at least a couple weeks before putting fish in. Yes, they may be fine but there is no need to stress them while your tank cycles.

An 80% water change after 4 days is unnecessary. Let the tank sit for several weeks and don't worry about the skimmer. Those things take awhile to break in. One hour it will seem fine and an hour later it will be going mad.

Stop dossing things. Stop adding fish. Just go slow and allow the bacteria to find a balance. That's what cycling a new tank is for.

Feel free to keep testing the water but resist the urge to make changes for awhile.

[mcgyvr]

Well.. "best practices" wouldn't really be sacrificing fish.... so you've got that strike (5 strikes really) against you from the start...

Typically the ammonium chloride product is 4 drops per gallon (or like 1 drop depending on which bottle you have).. I don't use the product so I'm not sure if your 4mL is even close to enough or too much or what..

You dumping the bottle of bacteria likely created enough of a bacterial population to consume/convert the ammonia,etc.. fast enough from the initial sparse feedings...
But based on dosing of the ammonium and the fact that it is not zero in 24 hours shows that your tank is still cycling..
I would suggest you simply wait it out now without adding anything else to the tank and certainly would suggest against adding anymore livestock as you are now making the current fish live in an environment where they are being exposed to toxic ammonia levels and are likely suffering from some gill burn,etc...

I'd expect you need to wait another 2 weeks minimum as typically starting with dry rock like you have basically requires about 4 weeks min to "properly" cycle..

I'd suggest you take that time to expand your knowledge and practice some patience..
NOTHING good happens fast in this hobby.. NOTHING...

As for the silicone stains.. Thats fairly normal.. Some will turn yellow.. some will show some red stains like that,etc... it can safely be ignored...

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by smartwater101

You're doing too much too fast. You should have waited at least a couple weeks before putting fish in. Yes, they may be fine but there is no need to stress them while you're tank cycles.

An 80% water change after 4 days is unnecessary. Let the tank sit for several weeks and don't worry about the skimmer. Those things take awhile to break in. One hour it will seem fine and an hour later it will be going mad.

Stop dossing things. Stop adding fish. Just go slow and allow the bacteria to find a balance. That's what cycling a new tank is for.

Feel free to keep testing the water but resist the urge to make changes for awhile.

I put the mollies in because I thought they would help cycle the tank quicker. Regarding the parameters, why was everything at zero UNTIL I dosed with ammonia? Shouldn't I have gotten some kinda reading with the live sand bacteria in a bottle and the rotting fish? I'm confused about what I should look for now. The ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike? I didn't think I needed to add anything else now and planned to wait it out, but I am confused about where I am and what exactly to look for next.

The guys at CoralVue said the epoxy was causing the skimmer to go crazy. Even keeping in on a high stand and with the valve fully closed, it was overflowing in 15-20 secs

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by cjpitt80

The guys at CoralVue said the epoxy was causing the skimmer to go crazy. Even keeping in on a high stand and with the valve fully closed, it was overflowing in 15-20 secs

That is true.. Epoxy and various other chemicals effect the surface tension of the water and will effect how a skimmer performs..
Some can cause the bubble column to go crazy (very common).. some can cause it to collapse some (not as common)..

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Well.. "best practices" wouldn't really be sacrificing fish.... so you've got that strike (5 strikes really) against you from the start...

Typically the ammonium chloride product is 4 drops per gallon (or like 1 drop depending on which bottle you have).. I don't use the product so I'm not sure if your 4mL is even close to enough or too much or what..

You dumping the bottle of bacteria likely created enough of a bacterial population to consume/convert the ammonia,etc.. fast enough from the initial sparse feedings...
But based on dosing of the ammonium and the fact that it is not zero in 24 hours shows that your tank is still cycling..
I would suggest you simply wait it out now without adding anything else to the tank and certainly would suggest against adding anymore livestock as you are now making the current fish live in an environment where they are being exposed to toxic ammonia levels and are likely suffering from some gill burn,etc...

I'd expect you need to wait another 2 weeks minimum as typically starting with dry rock like you have basically requires about 4 weeks min to "properly" cycle..

I'd suggest you take that time to expand your knowledge and practice some patience..
NOTHING good happens fast in this hobby.. NOTHING...

As for the silicone stains.. Thats fairly normal.. Some will turn yellow.. some will show some red stains like that,etc... it can safely be ignored...

I figured I'd get a little flack for the mollies... I've had all kinda freshwater fish and I've kept reptiles before. I've bought who knows how many feeders in my lifetime. I'll just say "each species has its purpose". The 2 mollies in there now seem to be happy though LOL.

I pretty much figured I just needed to wait it out for now. I just thought I would see some spike before I dosed with anything. The 4mL for the 80gal is what the directions say. It should have raised it to 2ppm, but I only got 0.6ppm. Since it's still cycling, what exactly am I looking for? 0 Ammonia, then a spike in Nitrite, then back to zero Nitrite and I'm good to go?

I need to work on getting my QT set up anyway in the meantime.

Thanks for easing my mind on the silicone stains...

[lowtek]

Originally Posted by cjpitt80

I put the mollies in because I thought they would help cycle the tank quicker. Regarding the parameters, why was everything at zero UNTIL I dosed with ammonia? Shouldn't I have gotten some kinda reading with the live sand bacteria in a bottle and the rotting fish? I'm confused about what I should look for now. The ammonia spike, then a nitrite spike? I didn't think I needed to add anything else now and planned to wait it out, but I am confused about where I am and what exactly to look for next.

The guys at CoralVue said the epoxy was causing the skimmer to go crazy. Even keeping in on a high stand and with the valve fully closed, it was overflowing in 15-20 secs

Just like everyone else said. Just slow down. Im new to saltwater myself. I started my tank in Jan. I only have 1 fish so far which I added about 2 weeks ago. Just getting past diatom stage. If you really want something to look at add like 2 snails and MAYBE a hermit or 2. Careful with any crab though. They are totally unpredictable on what they go after so try to keep them fed. Thats it for like the next 3 or 4 weeks. Then maybe you might want to add a fish or 2. Just chill crack open a six pack and enjoy the show. Before too long you will be on your way. Happy Reefing

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

[smartwater101]

Yes, fish will help cycle a tank. But my point was it's better not to put that stress on them. Some food or dead shrimp will be just as useful for cycling.

It takes things awhile to break down into ammonia so the readings you're getting are likely from a few days prior of excess food and whatnot. That's what you want in a cycle because now the bacteria will grow and start to break that ammonia down.

Here is a simple breakdown of the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate process.

https://m.liveaquaria.com/article/62/?aid=62

Your skimmer is just doing what skimmers do. I'm currently cycling a tank I decided to set back up and, as usual, the skimmer has lost it's mind. It's just part of the initial process.

Patience is key here. Go sloooooow. Keep testing, as I mentioned, but use this as an opportunity to record the data over the next several weeks. With that data you'll have a better understanding of how long these ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycles take. Which will make you better prepared to make adjustments in the future if you ever see a spike.

Watch some BRS cycling videos on YouTube to get a better idea of what you need. Some things (like having lights on) just isn't really necessary. It's a very simple process it's just a very slow process.

[cjpitt80]

Yeah, I wasn't really planning on adding anything else now, just wasn't sure where I was in the cycle and exactly what to look for regarding my parameters. Right now, the mollies are actually growing on me I cycled one of my freshwater tanks with feeder goldfish years back and the same thing ended up happening, they grew on me. I kept 3 of them for the entire time I had the tank

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by cjpitt80

Yeah, I wasn't really planning on adding anything else now, just wasn't sure where I was in the cycle and exactly what to look for regarding my parameters. Right now, the mollies are actually growing on me I cycled one of my freshwater tanks with feeder goldfish years back and the same thing ended up happening, they grew on me. I kept 3 of them for the entire time I had the tank

You are probably still fairly early in the cycle..
The trouble with the bacterial additives is that they can mask/skew a normal cycle where there is a clear ammonia then nitrite spike...
The bacteria is trying to stop those spikes and can do a fairly good job at it but it just makes it tougher on you if you are watching for/expecting those spikes..

Like I said before.. wait... I'd expect maybe 2-3 weeks for the bacteria colonies to get well established and see how parameters are looking then..

NOTHING good will come out of you not waiting... A tank is going through numerous changes/attempts at stability,etc... for at least the first few months and from my experience it takes a good 8+ months for a tank to be "stable" and "mature".. After that point they tend to get much easier...

A good sign of the end of a cycle is when diatoms/green film algaes start to show up.. At that point "life" is starting to get established and typically indicates the end or near end of the cycle..

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by smartwater101

Yes, fish will help cycle a tank. But my point was it's better not to put that stress on them. Some food or dead shrimp will be just as useful for cycling.

It takes things awhile to break down into ammonia so the readings you're getting are likely from a few days prior of excess food and whatnot. That's what you want in a cycle because now the bacteria will grow and start to break that ammonia down.

Here is a simple breakdown of the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate process.

https://m.liveaquaria.com/article/62/?aid=62

Your skimmer is just doing what skimmers do. I'm currently cycling a tank I decided to set back up and, as usual, the skimmer has lost it's mind. It's just part of the initial process.

Patience is key here. Go sloooooow. Keep testing, as I mentioned, but use this as an opportunity to record the data over the next several weeks. With that data you'll have a better understanding of how long these ammonia/nitrite/nitrate cycles take. Which will make you better prepared to make adjustments in the future if you ever see a spike.

Watch some BRS cycling videos on YouTube to get a better idea of what you need. Some things (like having lights on) just isn't really necessary. It's a very simple process it's just a very slow process.

Thanks!. Yeah, I watched the BRS videos. I followed most of the 160's 52 weeks series. I got a lil confused with thinking the tank was more "live" than it was. Just was expecting to see SOMETHING in my readings before I actually dosed the ammonia. Well, now I know the "LifeRock" isn't LIVE rock LOL Reading posts of people putting ornamental fish in ___ days probably didn't help much. Anyway, I don't mind waiting it out. Probably shouldn't say this, but I'm actually a biologist by trade (though I do nothing with nitrogen-fixing bacteria) so I keep accurate data. Right now I keep a regular light cycle, because I need to see what my daily temp swings are and look at fans in the sump.

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

You are probably still fairly early in the cycle..
The trouble with the bacterial additives is that they can mask/skew a normal cycle where there is a clear ammonia then nitrite spike...
The bacteria is trying to stop those spikes and can do a fairly good job at it but it just makes it tougher on you if you are watching for/expecting those spikes..

Like I said before.. wait... I'd expect maybe 2-3 weeks for the bacteria colonies to get well established and see how parameters are looking then..

NOTHING good will come out of you not waiting... A tank is going through numerous changes/attempts at stability,etc... for at least the first few months and from my experience it takes a good 8+ months for a tank to be "stable" and "mature".. After that point they tend to get much easier...

A good sign of the end of a cycle is when diatoms/green film algaes start to show up.. At that point "life" is starting to get established and typically indicates the end or near end of the cycle..

Thanks!!
Also, rethinking your previous post, I had never drip acclimated a fish before. So I used the mollies as "practice" not as a "sacrifice". Even though they died, and it wasn't due to ammonia shock, I think I can have those strikes back. So just the 2 that are in there now should be counted as strikes and since the ammonia is under 1ppm I should get half those strikes as a credit. So.. let's say just 1 strike against me now?

[tjm9331]

just like everyone else has said, slow down and enjoy the process, learn from it. I know exactly what you're going through, I wanted everything done fast too, I bought the bacteria in a bottle and expected a quick cycle but it didn't happen. I still had to wait the full 4-6 weeks before I was fully cycled.

Don't add anything else, keep testing you ammonia every other day, don't worry about nitrites and nitrates right now. Once you see your ammonia back to 0 add some more of the ammonia chloride until you get at least 1ppm, wait 24 hours and retest, if it reads 0 then test your nitrites if those read 0 then you're cycled.

If your nitrites don't read 0 when tested then retest every other day until they read 0 once they do I would add another dose of ammonia chloride to 1ppm and retest both ammonia and nitrites after 24 hours. If they both read 0 you're good to go. do a 50% water change to get nitrates to manageable levels.

[hijinks]

The number one rule in this hobby is learn patience. If you can't wait you might as well sell your tank now because it'll happen within a year or two when you get sick of dead fish/coral.

I have a 120g that's 8 months old and only has 5 fish in it. Why? I've learned my lessons on going slow and proper QT of new fish. The worst thing is when you have 10-12 fish and you just put what looks like a healthy fish in the tank and everything dies due to marine velvet.

If you get bored of a empty tank at day 3 you will run into issues down the road with rushing. Reef tanks like slow changes made over weeks.

[cjpitt80]

Thanks! With all my freshwater tanks I add a bottle of bacteria a few feeders, then a week later my ornamental fish and I'm ready to go. Reefing is different, wow!

"Don't add anything else, keep testing you ammonia every other day, don't worry about nitrites and nitrates right now. Once you see your ammonia back to 0 add some more of the ammonia chloride until you get at least 1ppm, wait 24 hours and retest, if it reads 0 then test your nitrites if those read 0 then you're cycled.

I can do this method with the 2 mollies in there now? Do I need to remove them (or the 2 rotting ones in the sump if I can find them)?

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by hijinks

The number one rule in this hobby is learn patience. If you can't wait you might as well sell your tank now because it'll happen within a year or two when you get sick of dead fish/coral.

I have a 120g that's 8 months old and only has 5 fish in it. Why? I've learned my lessons on going slow and proper QT of new fish. The worst thing is when you have 10-12 fish and you just put what looks like a healthy fish in the tank and everything dies due to marine velvet.

If you get bored of a empty tank at day 3 you will run into issues down the road with rushing. Reef tanks like slow changes made over weeks.

No I didn't get bored with an empty tank until day SEVEN, not 3... Just kidding, I def get what you and everyone is saying. I was just confused because I wasn't reading anything.

Regarding marine velvet and your QT new fish. Is it necessary to QT the first batch of new fish? Well, I guess my real question is, can you QT them in the Display tank. If I get a pair of clowns and have NO OTHER FISH in the display for 72days is this safe? From what I've read this is the longest tomont can live with no host fish. If I wait 72 days AFTER putting in the fish and observe no signs of infection, would this be acceptable, or am I all wrong?

[hijinks]

Originally Posted by cjpitt80

No I didn't get bored with an empty tank until day SEVEN, not 3... Just kidding, I def get what you and everyone is saying. I was just confused because I wasn't reading anything.

Regarding marine velvet and your QT new fish. Is it necessary to QT the first batch of new fish? Well, I guess my real question is, can you QT them in the Display tank. If I get a pair of clowns and have NO OTHER FISH in the display for 72days is this safe? From what I've read this is the longest tomont can live with no host fish. If I wait 72 days AFTER putting in the fish and observe no signs of infection, would this be acceptable, or am I all wrong?

The first fish into the tank don't need to be QT.

The number of fish at one time is a debated topic. On my 120 I added two fish and waited a month before I added another fish. I only add a single fish at a time unless they are a pair. I QT them for at least 4 weeks to watch them to make sure they are healthy.

I don't medicate in the QT unless I feel its needed.

[lapin]

Lessons learned. Hopefully remembered. We all did it. The question is; when that first outbreak of hair or slime happens, will we wait or will we toss in a bunch of chemicals to cure it like its a disease?
Im learning to actually love my cyano. Cant buy that color of red sand anywhere.

[Smokey Stover]

If those first fish have ICH (not the mollies, Highly unlikely they had Marine ICH) then the tank will have ICH and every fish after will have ICH until the tank has gone fallow (totally fishless,including the mollies now, 72 days)and the fish treated in a QT with one of the 3 effective ways of eradicating it.

[Drewbe147]

Originally Posted by lapin

Lessons learned. Hopefully remembered. We all did it. The question is; when that first outbreak of hair or slime happens, will we wait or will we toss in a bunch of chemicals to cure it like its a disease?
Im learning to actually love my cyano. Cant buy that color of red sand anywhere.

LOL learning to love the cyano was great. Im battling some cyano right now. Not horrible but not great either. No chems here though. I know I was overfeeding for a while and need to add some flow to the bottom of the tank. Been scrubbing lower portions of my rock during WCs and stirring the sand a little to syphon out what I can and added a few sand sifters to help agitate it. It’s true though...can’t buy that color sand anywhere LOL

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by Smokey Stover

If those first fish have ICH (not the mollies, Highly unlikely they had Marine ICH) then the tank will have ICH and every fish after will have ICH until the tank has gone fallow (totally fishless,including the mollies now, 72 days)and the fish treated in a QT with one of the 3 effective ways of eradicating it.

But wouldn't I be able to tell if the first fish are infected within 72 days? If I add the first batch of fish (not counting the mollies in there now) THEN wait at lest 72 days before adding any OTHER fish, isn't this the same as quarantining? Essentially, I'm just quarantining in the display tank, right?

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by tjm9331

just like everyone else has said, slow down and enjoy the process, learn from it. I know exactly what you're going through, I wanted everything done fast too, I bought the bacteria in a bottle and expected a quick cycle but it didn't happen. I still had to wait the full 4-6 weeks before I was fully cycled.

Don't add anything else, keep testing you ammonia every other day, don't worry about nitrites and nitrates right now. Once you see your ammonia back to 0 add some more of the ammonia chloride until you get at least 1ppm, wait 24 hours and retest, if it reads 0 then test your nitrites if those read 0 then you're cycled.

If your nitrites don't read 0 when tested then retest every other day until they read 0 once they do I would add another dose of ammonia chloride to 1ppm and retest both ammonia and nitrites after 24 hours. If they both read 0 you're good to go. do a 50% water change to get nitrates to manageable levels.

So I tested the ammonia level and it's back to zero along with Nitrites and Nitrates. This is 4 days after I dosed with ammonia. I'll add more ammonia and then test tomorrow to see where I'm at (I don't know if there was a nitrite/nitrate spike since I didn't test after the initial ammonia spike)

[Tyler438]

Sounds like you are just impatient I started in April I believe, converted my fresh water to salt water after a move. I let my tank cycle for 30 days with live rock bought from petco before I added anything in it. Here we are in June and I have a puffer, 2 clowns, blenny, angel, snails, shrimp and a mean starfish. I haven't lost anything except a turbo snail (starfish ate it). Listen to the guys on this site, I have learned a lot just by poking around in the forums.

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by Tyler438

Sounds like you are just impatient I started in April I believe, converted my fresh water to salt water after a move. I let my tank cycle for 30 days with live rock bought from petco before I added anything in it. Here we are in June and I have a puffer, 2 clowns, blenny, angel, snails, shrimp and a mean starfish. I haven't lost anything except a turbo snail (starfish ate it). Listen to the guys on this site, I have learned a lot just by poking around in the forums.

What part seems impatient? I was simply wondering why I didn't see anything until after I dosed with ammonia. The ammonia is now back to zero, but I haven't seen any nitrite or nitrate yet.

[cjpitt80]

Originally Posted by cjpitt80

What part seems impatient? I was simply wondering why I didn't see anything until after I dosed with ammonia. The ammonia is now back to zero, but I haven't seen any nitrite or nitrate yet.

And where are you located? I've never seen a Petco with any marine livestock or rocks...