Newbie who took the wrong LFS advice

tiflyche · 07/31/2018, 02:28 PM

This is my first marine tank, 60 gal. I had always heard it takes 2-3 mo before you should add any livestock, but...I went to the LFS (actually one hour away) to get set up. I think he just wanted to SELL, SELL, SELL. I had tried to do my homework ahead of time, but felt overwhelmed, that's why I read some online review about the store to make sure I was going to an "expert."

Long story short, he had me buy a Marineland bio-wheel filter, 2 no-name power heads 800gph and 1600gph (which I found on Amazon for 1/10th of the price), glass tube heater, hydrometer, 5gal bucket of salt, and substrate. We went home and set everything up. He said we had to set up the system and come back in a few days and we could fully stock the tank. We were a bit thrown off, but figured he has been in business for 30+ years, so he must be doing something right...wrong.

We went back that next weekend and bought a little bit of live rock (11lbs total, it was all we could afford at his prices) along with a mushroom, montipora, millipora, frog spawn, and others to make up 6 total corals. We also bought 2 small Oc. clowns for the tank. He loaded us up with 2 peppermint shrimp (more on that later), 2 blue legged hermits (looks like turbos), and 4 mini starfish. He had "custom LED lights that were pure blue, but once again no name.

At this point we were on the hook with him for just over $1,000, not including the glass tank and stand. We felt committed to see this through. I got him to replace 5 out of the 6 dead corrals and 4 dead stars. I felt obligated to repurchase the dead clown to reduce his overhead cost impact.

We had a giant algae bloom and he told us to buy more hermits, this time we got ones in a periwinkle style shell. I bought an LTA, sea cucumber, squirt, emerald crab, and a honeycomb cowfish...not knowing their was a problem with the tank. After 1 day with the LTA in the tank, the peppermint shrimp cleaned that to a small disk, no foot or testicles left...just a mouth. I thought it would sting them, but I guess not. Something had killed a few crabs too, must have been them.

I have done some major research and watched 30+ videos from BRS. I have learned the way to go about the next tank, but I am not sure what to do with this one and all the money I have invested. I have adjusted my salinity from 1.020 to 1.026 and bought two new Cobalt thermos. I returned my lights to him and bought Current USA Orbit Marine dim LED 46-60". I have also bought 80lbs of reef-saver rock and have it in the tank (after thoughoghly soaking) to complete the final scape. I cange my filter media twice weekly (wed and sun) and have done a 10% water change after four weeks to reduce the outbreak.

Please help with no implied rudeness or shaming. I followed an expert in the area, and dropped over 1k in his store alone trying to do the right thing.

thegrun · 07/31/2018, 06:48 PM

Well I’m sorry to hear your not that rare horror story of a LFS more interested in short term profit than establishing a long term client. Hopefully you have access to another store, although most anything you need can be purchased online. As far as where to go from here it sounds like you know the answer, take things slow and always research before making any purchase. Livestock is always the most difficult item to avoid impulse purchases. At a minimum chech liveaquaria.com for fish. They will give you basic information on just about any fish in the hobby, things like minimum tank size, how aggressive the fish typically is and it’s compatibility with other fish can all be found on their website.
I would avoid the store you started at just as a matter of principal, but if you only have one store in your area that may not be an option.

dattong · 07/31/2018, 08:30 PM

Don't feel bad, most experienced reefers on here if not all have lost more than 1k in livestock (corals and fishes) to gain the experience they have today.

Daddi0 · 07/31/2018, 09:32 PM

Do you have a local reefing group in your area? Joining one was the first step we took when we started reefing. We learned so much.
Cheers! Mark

Conchman · 07/31/2018, 11:14 PM

As some have said, I’m sorry. I would level out, begin a consistant husbandry program. Get extremely comfortable with taking tests, and be confident in the results (quality test kit). You will pull thru, keep asking questions here, at least there is a kinda check and balance system. If I offer some truely stupid advice, someone with more knowledge will likely step in and correct me...good luck...

Rispa · 07/31/2018, 11:27 PM

Make sure you keep spare water and carbon on hand in case something goes really wrong. Get rid of the cucumber, lta, and cowfish that are sensitive and if they die they could kill the whole tank. Use TLC Smart Start to make sure you have bacteria seeded, so you cycle less and hopefully stabilize faster. Those are my main tips. Honestly a hob filter and no name powerheads are fine. Getting a better light was a good move though.

What livestock including coral do you have left?

Rispa · 07/31/2018, 11:27 PM

Also what do you mean by squirt?

Sugar Magnolia · 08/01/2018, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rispa

Also what do you mean by squirt?

Probably a sea squirt. I'd remove that and the cucumber. I'm not sure what kind of stars he sold you but I would guess sand sifting stars which don't survive long term even in well established tanks.

As mentioned above, first establish a weekly husbandry routine with testing and 10% water changes, read, read, read and ask as many questions as you need.

billdogg · 08/01/2018, 08:07 AM

I, too, am very sorry to hear about your initial start up disaster. Sadly, it is all too common.

It sounds to me like you are now on the right track, so just keep with it and you will eventually get on top of things.

Where are you located? There are local clubs just about everywhere. They are an excellent resource not only for help, but also for suggestions on just which stores to go to and more importantly, which ones to avoid. I wouldn't spend another penny in the one you found.

Keep us updated!

biecacka · 08/01/2018, 08:17 AM

Find a local club as others have stated. Steer clear from that LFS and maybe inform other new reefers of his antics as well.
Keep your head up, we all suffer losses and just try to learn from them.

Corey

mattgumaer · 08/01/2018, 03:03 PM

Sorry to hear about the rough start and glad to hear you're sticking with it. As others have suggested, someone local with knowledge/experience would be extremely helpful.

Since you already have what you have in terms of equipment, I would work with it. Get used the the fundamentals: 1) testing; 2) water changes and other maintenance; 3) identifying and resolving basic issues; and 4) identifying, choosing and caring for appropriate fish/coral/inverts for your system.

One of the great things about this hobby is that there is tons of cool stuff that can thrive in all sorts of different tanks from basic to hyper-complex/expensive ones. Once you get the hang of things with a more basic system, you may either find that: 1) you're perfectly satisfied with it; or 2) you may have an itch to 'upgrade' certain things that will allow you to keep different kinds of things in your tank. If you find yourself in the second category, by the time you have 'mastered' (if there is such a thing) this tank, you'll be in a much better position to make informed/intelligent decisions about upgrades.

In short, I would say work on the basics with your existing system. Don't go crazy throwing money at 'problems' right now. Ask questions when specific problems pop up. You will learn a ton in the process and be much better equipped to set up a second system in the future, if you decide to do so.

Good luck, have fun and welcome aboard.

Matt

Uncle99 · 08/01/2018, 07:09 PM

You would figure that it would be more financially benficifical for the LFS store to make you successful, future sustained earnings are more important that today's sale.
Join a group, pass on your experience, then he will deliver pizzas...

Happened in my local, people stopped buying, guy sold store, now back doing a great business, bigger and better than ever. But they know their stuff and don't sell you crap.

Excluding livestock, Only 5. things for SW
-tank
-water
-LR
-heater
-light

Some of the best tanks have only these four things + an expert in making, mixing and deploying, great SW on point, consistent and stable, to NSW parameters = success!

Daddyrawg · 08/02/2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddi0

Do you have a local reefing group in your area? Joining one was the first step we took when we started reefing. We learned so much.
Cheers! Mark

How can I find a local reefing group? This sounds awesome

dtapke · 08/02/2018, 10:26 AM

you waited four weeks to do a 10% water change???? I do water changes every 1-2 weeks of 10-20% (maybe overkill, but i don't add kalk or dose anything else)

at this point, my very humble and intermediate experience would say you should start doing 10-20% water changes weekly (test result dependent, maybe more, maybe less) to keep whatever is in there alive, and get your natural biological filtration up to par with the load in the tank. as you see numbers spiking, change the water. if your ammonia goes up, change water, if your nitrites go up, change water. plenty of info on what "good" water specs are, do your best to keep them close to that number through water changes for the next 6-8 weeks. keeping in mind good RO/DI water with 0tds and good salt are key in that.

Daddi0 · 08/02/2018, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddyrawg

How can I find a local reefing group? This sounds awesome

We just googled salt water reef club in our area. There are a bunch here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80
Cheers! Mark

Redeyes31 · 08/02/2018, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daddi0

We just googled salt water reef club in our area. There are a bunch here:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80
Cheers! Mark

Thanks Mark! I was just wondering the same and now you've provided easy access.

Redeyes31 · 08/02/2018, 10:36 PM

[QUOTE]
Please help with no implied rudeness or shaming. [QUOTE]

Very sorry to hear to hear about the tank situation.

Maybe the guy was really trying to do his best...and is just really, really, really bad at it...........Maybe. A good piece of advice I read when it comes to figuring out whether someone knows what they are talking about or not; look at their tank. If it is amazing, their probably know what they are doing. Though hardly anything is certain.

If it makes you feel any better, I am just starting a similar sized tank and I spent way, way, way more. I don't even have algae yet. But at end of day, the others have said it: your two greatest assets for this hobby are knowledge and patience.

tiflyche · 08/24/2018, 08:17 PM

Thank you to all of the responses. I have not been back to the "bad" LFS. I gave another LFS a go and he seems to be significantly different in his school of thought. He has also advised against certain corals, like a candy cane, until my tank is more established. I have since removed the sea squirt and cucumber. I was afraid to have a toxic problem again. I have one pj cardinal (Tony Pajamas) remaining in the tank. His buddys died a few weeks ago. He looks like he may have a parasite. I continue to treat the tank with Prazipro to help reduce the parisite colony. If/when he dies I will begin a FALLOW period. All of my corals are doing great. My hammer and frog look better than when I bought them. I have added a n a HOB Reef Octopus skimmer and run it dry. I have an abundance of pods now with stable parmeters and an increase in Nitrogen. I change filter media 2x week, top off weekly, and perform a 15%ish (10gal) water change biweekly.

Reef Central is a life saver...pocketbook too. I am constantly googling and wi ding right back to RC.
Thank you to everyone who continues to give experience.

07/31/2018, 02:28 PM	#1
tiflyche Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 13	Newbie who took the wrong LFS advice This is my first marine tank, 60 gal. I had always heard it takes 2-3 mo before you should add any livestock, but...I went to the LFS (actually one hour away) to get set up. I think he just wanted to SELL, SELL, SELL. I had tried to do my homework ahead of time, but felt overwhelmed, that's why I read some online review about the store to make sure I was going to an "expert." Long story short, he had me buy a Marineland bio-wheel filter, 2 no-name power heads 800gph and 1600gph (which I found on Amazon for 1/10th of the price), glass tube heater, hydrometer, 5gal bucket of salt, and substrate. We went home and set everything up. He said we had to set up the system and come back in a few days and we could fully stock the tank. We were a bit thrown off, but figured he has been in business for 30+ years, so he must be doing something right...wrong. We went back that next weekend and bought a little bit of live rock (11lbs total, it was all we could afford at his prices) along with a mushroom, montipora, millipora, frog spawn, and others to make up 6 total corals. We also bought 2 small Oc. clowns for the tank. He loaded us up with 2 peppermint shrimp (more on that later), 2 blue legged hermits (looks like turbos), and 4 mini starfish. He had "custom LED lights that were pure blue, but once again no name. At this point we were on the hook with him for just over $1,000, not including the glass tank and stand. We felt committed to see this through. I got him to replace 5 out of the 6 dead corrals and 4 dead stars. I felt obligated to repurchase the dead clown to reduce his overhead cost impact. We had a giant algae bloom and he told us to buy more hermits, this time we got ones in a periwinkle style shell. I bought an LTA, sea cucumber, squirt, emerald crab, and a honeycomb cowfish...not knowing their was a problem with the tank. After 1 day with the LTA in the tank, the peppermint shrimp cleaned that to a small disk, no foot or testicles left...just a mouth. I thought it would sting them, but I guess not. Something had killed a few crabs too, must have been them. I have done some major research and watched 30+ videos from BRS. I have learned the way to go about the next tank, but I am not sure what to do with this one and all the money I have invested. I have adjusted my salinity from 1.020 to 1.026 and bought two new Cobalt thermos. I returned my lights to him and bought Current USA Orbit Marine dim LED 46-60". I have also bought 80lbs of reef-saver rock and have it in the tank (after thoughoghly soaking) to complete the final scape. I cange my filter media twice weekly (wed and sun) and have done a 10% water change after four weeks to reduce the outbreak. Please help with no implied rudeness or shaming. I followed an expert in the area, and dropped over 1k in his store alone trying to do the right thing.

07/31/2018, 09:32 PM	#4
Daddi0 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Redwood City Posts: 1,354	Do you have a local reefing group in your area? Joining one was the first step we took when we started reefing. We learned so much. Cheers! Mark __________________ 2x 65g displays with a 30g cryptic refugium and 30g sump - 55g reef 30g Bio-cube reef - I.M. 30g reef - 45g freshwater

08/01/2018, 08:07 AM	#9
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	I, too, am very sorry to hear about your initial start up disaster. Sadly, it is all too common. It sounds to me like you are now on the right track, so just keep with it and you will eventually get on top of things. Where are you located? There are local clubs just about everywhere. They are an excellent resource not only for help, but also for suggestions on just which stores to go to and more importantly, which ones to avoid. I wouldn't spend another penny in the one you found. Keep us updated! __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

08/01/2018, 07:09 PM	#12
Uncle99 Crab Free Zone Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,906	You would figure that it would be more financially benficifical for the LFS store to make you successful, future sustained earnings are more important that today's sale. Join a group, pass on your experience, then he will deliver pizzas... Happened in my local, people stopped buying, guy sold store, now back doing a great business, bigger and better than ever. But they know their stuff and don't sell you crap. Excluding livestock, Only 5. things for SW -tank -water -LR -heater -light Some of the best tanks have only these four things + an expert in making, mixing and deploying, great SW on point, consistent and stable, to NSW parameters = success! Last edited by Uncle99; 08/01/2018 at 07:16 PM.

07/31/2018, 06:48 PM	#2
thegrun Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Garden Grove, Ca Posts: 17,023	Well I’m sorry to hear your not that rare horror story of a LFS more interested in short term profit than establishing a long term client. Hopefully you have access to another store, although most anything you need can be purchased online. As far as where to go from here it sounds like you know the answer, take things slow and always research before making any purchase. Livestock is always the most difficult item to avoid impulse purchases. At a minimum chech liveaquaria.com for fish. They will give you basic information on just about any fish in the hobby, things like minimum tank size, how aggressive the fish typically is and it’s compatibility with other fish can all be found on their website. I would avoid the store you started at just as a matter of principal, but if you only have one store in your area that may not be an option.

07/31/2018, 08:30 PM	#3
dattong Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 690	Don't feel bad, most experienced reefers on here if not all have lost more than 1k in livestock (corals and fishes) to gain the experience they have today.

07/31/2018, 11:14 PM	#5
Conchman Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 56	As some have said, I’m sorry. I would level out, begin a consistant husbandry program. Get extremely comfortable with taking tests, and be confident in the results (quality test kit). You will pull thru, keep asking questions here, at least there is a kinda check and balance system. If I offer some truely stupid advice, someone with more knowledge will likely step in and correct me...good luck...

07/31/2018, 11:27 PM	#6
Rispa Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 35	Make sure you keep spare water and carbon on hand in case something goes really wrong. Get rid of the cucumber, lta, and cowfish that are sensitive and if they die they could kill the whole tank. Use TLC Smart Start to make sure you have bacteria seeded, so you cycle less and hopefully stabilize faster. Those are my main tips. Honestly a hob filter and no name powerheads are fine. Getting a better light was a good move though. What livestock including coral do you have left?

08/01/2018, 08:17 AM	#10
biecacka Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 6,361	Find a local club as others have stated. Steer clear from that LFS and maybe inform other new reefers of his antics as well. Keep your head up, we all suffer losses and just try to learn from them. Corey

08/01/2018, 03:03 PM	#11
mattgumaer Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 561	Sorry to hear about the rough start and glad to hear you're sticking with it. As others have suggested, someone local with knowledge/experience would be extremely helpful. Since you already have what you have in terms of equipment, I would work with it. Get used the the fundamentals: 1) testing; 2) water changes and other maintenance; 3) identifying and resolving basic issues; and 4) identifying, choosing and caring for appropriate fish/coral/inverts for your system. One of the great things about this hobby is that there is tons of cool stuff that can thrive in all sorts of different tanks from basic to hyper-complex/expensive ones. Once you get the hang of things with a more basic system, you may either find that: 1) you're perfectly satisfied with it; or 2) you may have an itch to 'upgrade' certain things that will allow you to keep different kinds of things in your tank. If you find yourself in the second category, by the time you have 'mastered' (if there is such a thing) this tank, you'll be in a much better position to make informed/intelligent decisions about upgrades. In short, I would say work on the basics with your existing system. Don't go crazy throwing money at 'problems' right now. Ask questions when specific problems pop up. You will learn a ton in the process and be much better equipped to set up a second system in the future, if you decide to do so. Good luck, have fun and welcome aboard. Matt

08/02/2018, 10:26 AM	#14
dtapke Registered Member Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 105	you waited four weeks to do a 10% water change???? I do water changes every 1-2 weeks of 10-20% (maybe overkill, but i don't add kalk or dose anything else) at this point, my very humble and intermediate experience would say you should start doing 10-20% water changes weekly (test result dependent, maybe more, maybe less) to keep whatever is in there alive, and get your natural biological filtration up to par with the load in the tank. as you see numbers spiking, change the water. if your ammonia goes up, change water, if your nitrites go up, change water. plenty of info on what "good" water specs are, do your best to keep them close to that number through water changes for the next 6-8 weeks. keeping in mind good RO/DI water with 0tds and good salt are key in that.

08/02/2018, 10:36 PM	#17
Redeyes31 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 23	[QUOTE] Please help with no implied rudeness or shaming. [QUOTE] Very sorry to hear to hear about the tank situation. Maybe the guy was really trying to do his best...and is just really, really, really bad at it...........Maybe. A good piece of advice I read when it comes to figuring out whether someone knows what they are talking about or not; look at their tank. If it is amazing, their probably know what they are doing. Though hardly anything is certain. If it makes you feel any better, I am just starting a similar sized tank and I spent way, way, way more. I don't even have algae yet. But at end of day, the others have said it: your two greatest assets for this hobby are knowledge and patience.

08/24/2018, 08:17 PM	#18
tiflyche Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: Little Rock, AR Posts: 13	Thank you to all of the responses. I have not been back to the "bad" LFS. I gave another LFS a go and he seems to be significantly different in his school of thought. He has also advised against certain corals, like a candy cane, until my tank is more established. I have since removed the sea squirt and cucumber. I was afraid to have a toxic problem again. I have one pj cardinal (Tony Pajamas) remaining in the tank. His buddys died a few weeks ago. He looks like he may have a parasite. I continue to treat the tank with Prazipro to help reduce the parisite colony. If/when he dies I will begin a FALLOW period. All of my corals are doing great. My hammer and frog look better than when I bought them. I have added a n a HOB Reef Octopus skimmer and run it dry. I have an abundance of pods now with stable parmeters and an increase in Nitrogen. I change filter media 2x week, top off weekly, and perform a 15%ish (10gal) water change biweekly. Reef Central is a life saver...pocketbook too. I am constantly googling and wi ding right back to RC. Thank you to everyone who continues to give experience.