LONG 2yr GHA battle - what steps to take next?

[Zalick]

I've been battling green hair algae for nearly 2 years. I have a 300g DT and 100g sump. I do a 10% WC weekly. My parameters are as follows:

CA: 477
Kh: 7.2
Phosphate: 0 (hanna ULR) - Sometimes it goes up to .018
Nitrate: 0 (undetectable)
Salinity: 34.5
Temp: 79-80
Mag: 1320

I only have 4 fish in my system. I feed about 1 cube per day. I know the live rock is leaching the phosphates. Unfortunately I used uncooked live rock for the system, despite swearing never to do that again.

Removing the rock is not an option.

I've been attempting manual remove with water changes, using the siphon.

I only have about 15 or so trochus snails. Thinking about adding 50 more as it wouldn't add to the bioload since I wouldn't be adding food just for the snails.

The algae is cover all the rocks (except the small areas the snails eat). its also fully entrenched on about 100 heads of hammer. I pull it off these every week.

Its been a SUPER slow process of wacking this stuff back. Its finally at a spot where i feel I'm winning the war, but can't seal the deal.

The algae is green but very faded. Its clearly struggling to stay alive. I've been using a scrub brush to scrub the rocks in the tank. Obviously this dislodged the dying algae and it circulates around the tank. I can't think of any other way to knock it off the rocks at this point.

I'm thinking about taking all the hammer out and put in a separate tank for a few days and squirt hydrogen peroxide on the algae.

I've been running GFO this entire time and test the effluent as well. It always measures 0 and I change it before it gets full.

I tried chaeto about a year ago, but the phosphates are too low by the time the water gets to the sump and it slowly faded away.

Anyone have any tips on how to finish the job on this stuff? I have not tried a blackout but that was next on the list.

My only corals are the 100 heads of hammer, two heads of duncan and a devils hand.

I clean my skimmer neck, cup and autocleaner weekly. It accumulates about 1-2 tbs of crud weekly, so clearly there is a decent amount of organics making it to the sump.

Thanks!

[Balix]

Fluconazole treatment then a small dose to prevent it from coming back.


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[mcgyvr]

uncooked live rock? huh?
Not sure I understand that categorization..

Tried Fluconazole yet?

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

uncooked live rock? huh?
Not sure I understand that categorization..

Tried Fluconazole yet?

"uncooked" meaning I did not store it in buckets and leach out the phosphates prior to setting up the tank. I got it straight from the LFS, where it was fresh off the boat/plane. I cured it in a 100g tub with heater and pumps but didn't change the water a ton and never measured anything.

I have not tried fluconazole. Is it pretty straightforward? I'll read up on that.

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by Zalick

"uncooked" meaning I did not store it in buckets and leach out the phosphates prior to setting up the tank. I got it straight from the LFS, where it was fresh off the boat/plane. I cured it in a 100g tub with heater and pumps but didn't change the water a ton and never measured anything.

I have not tried fluconazole. Is it pretty straightforward? I'll read up on that.

20 mg per gallon dose. Turn off skimmer and carbon for a couple weeks.

As for curing (I dislike the term "cook"), that really is a concern with dry rock. I guess maybe depending on where the LFS got their rock from it could be a concern if all they did was add dry rock to their tubs for a bit to become live.

[Balix]

First I would do a water change and scrub and manually remove as much GHA as you can. Dose fluconazole, remove skimmer cup and let it overflow if it’s in the sump, remove filter socks and carbon. You won’t see any new algae grow at all but let it run this way for six weeks.

I would also feed a bit less during this time than usual since your skimmer is off. If you want to do a water change during the course of this treatment then dose your new water with some fluconazole too.

Fish and corals will be fine with fluconazole, at least from my experience anyway, LPS, softies and SPS.


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[Zalick]

Originally Posted by sde1500

20 mg per gallon dose. Turn off skimmer and carbon for a couple weeks.

As for curing (I dislike the term "cook"), that really is a concern with dry rock. I guess maybe depending on where the LFS got their rock from it could be a concern if all they did was add dry rock to their tubs for a bit to become live.

Thanks. I also dislike the term cook, but that's the only way I've heard it described when leaching phosphates in buckets, measuring po4 and water changes (and/or dosing LaCl in buckets too). Some people get the wrong impression and boil or bake the rocks...

This rock was imported from Indonesia and had only been in their tub for a day or so. It looked fresh from the ocean.

I'm going to give the fluconazole a try. Been reading all morning. Is there anything specifically I should watch out for in terms of my live stock?

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by Balix

First I would do a water change and scrub and manually remove as much GHA as you can. Dose fluconazole, remove skimmer cup and let it overflow if it’s in the sump, remove filter socks and carbon. You won’t see any new algae grow at all but let it run this way for six weeks.

I would also feed a bit less during this time than usual since your skimmer is off. If you want to do a water change during the course of this treatment then dose your new water with some fluconazole too.

Fish and corals will be fine with fluconazole, at least from my experience anyway, LPS, softies and SPS.


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Thanks for the info. Wish I had dosed this a month ago when I tore down the glass tank and replaced with acrylic! At that time I scrubbed all the rocks with a wire brush before putting back in the new tank. My skimmer is external but I can easily route the drain line to the tank.

Would it be worth doing periodic lights off during this time? I get a decent amount of morning ambient sun on the tank.

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by Zalick

Thanks. I also dislike the term cook, but that's the only way I've heard it described when leaching phosphates in buckets, measuring po4 and water changes (and/or dosing LaCl in buckets too). Some people get the wrong impression and boil or bake the rocks...

This rock was imported from Indonesia and had only been in their tub for a day or so. It looked fresh from the ocean.

I'm going to give the fluconazole a try. Been reading all morning. Is there anything specifically I should watch out for in terms of my live stock?

I guess just watch for things to be looking bad, coral possibly. I've seen some mention of corals dieing using the reef flux branded stuff. IDK if they bought some cheap sourced fluc or not but maybe avoid that one. I got mine here: https://payless-petproducts.com/fluconazole200.html and had no ill effects. Even added a couple acro days after dosing. I'd hazard a guess the rock wasn't your issue though. But no matter, fluc should clear it up nicely.

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by sde1500

I guess just watch for things to be looking bad, coral possibly. I've seen some mention of corals dieing using the reef flux branded stuff. IDK if they bought some cheap sourced fluc or not but maybe avoid that one. I got mine here: https://payless-petproducts.com/fluconazole200.html and had no ill effects. Even added a couple acro days after dosing. I'd hazard a guess the rock wasn't your issue though. But no matter, fluc should clear it up nicely.

Great! My wife is a vet so she can write a script for the tank and get it from the pharmacy for the same price as online.

The rock didn't come with the GHA, that was introduced by me on a frag or something. But it appears to be leaching the phosphates for it to grow since I feed such a small amount of food for a large tank.

[clevername]

i had the same issue, i bought CHEAP used rock and it was sitting in a garbage can for months.

started growing like crazy. However i kept educating myself in the chemistry of the tank and the algae. There are some great BRS videos to help. For me it was, water changes weekly 20%, refugium with an AMAZING light (see BRS investigates videos) and GFO.

I think GFO alone can help with your issue alone. Get high quality GFO in a reactor. LASTLY and 100% more important

You have to remove the algae manually. you will NEVER get the algae out of the system if its dying and then feeding the other alive algae.

[jrill]

Didn't BRS to a video showing that rock can't leach phosphate despite everyone claiming it does?

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by clevername2000

i had the same issue, i bought CHEAP used rock and it was sitting in a garbage can for months.

started growing like crazy. However i kept educating myself in the chemistry of the tank and the algae. There are some great BRS videos to help. For me it was, water changes weekly 20%, refugium with an AMAZING light (see BRS investigates videos) and GFO.

I think GFO alone can help with your issue alone. Get high quality GFO in a reactor. LASTLY and 100% more important

You have to remove the algae manually. you will NEVER get the algae out of the system if its dying and then feeding the other alive algae.

Thanks. I've been running GFO for a long time using the high capacity BRS. My DT water generally measures 0 to .018 phosphates using Hanna ULR.

Getting the algae out manually has been the challenge! In a 300g DT its tough. I pinch it out but there is always a thin layer that doesn't pinch off. This I brush off with a scrub brush. It then circulates around. Lots goes to the overflow, which passes through my 114w UV and kills the algae. And gets filtered out with a filter sock. But obviously a decent amount stays in the tank.....

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by jrill

Didn't BRS to a video showing that rock can't leach phosphate despite everyone claiming it does?

I'm not sure about their video, but rock can definitely leach phosphates. Randy explains how it might occur/does occur with some rocks. Either bound in the carbonate or as organic matter decaying in the tiny crevices.

You can see it happen when you get new rock by keeping them in buckets, in the dark, with a power head and heater. Then testing phosphates daily and changing out the water. You will see the phosphates eventually reach 0. You are only adding pure RO/DI saltwater, so the only way phosphates could get in the water is from the rock itself. I intended to do that with this current rock but I was lazy. It was in a 100g tub. I just changed the water every week or so, without measuring the phosphates in the water.....

[earwicker7]

Originally Posted by jrill

Didn't BRS to a video showing that rock can't leach phosphate despite everyone claiming it does?

Yeah, I hate the rocks are leaching phosphates myth.

The rock isn't leaching phosphates, the fish poop and food that is not either eaten by detrivores or manually removed is. There's a huge distinction.

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by earwicker7

Yeah, I hate the rocks are leaching phosphates myth.

The rock isn't leaching phosphates, the fish poop and food that is not either eaten by detrivores or manually removed is. There's a huge distinction.

First, its semantics if one person says "rock is leaching phosphate" and another says "no, its the microscopic organic matter inside the tiny microscopic pores in the rock that's leaching the phosphate".

Second, I trust Randy over BRS or pretty much anyone else claiming its a myth: Randy Holmes-Farley says rocks can leach phosphates.

Here is his quote from another site:
Randy Holmes-Farley says "The phosphate on the rock is in equilibrium with phosphate in the water. So having the rock in water with a low to very low phosphate concentration will slowly remove it from the rock. You can do that before setup, or you can keep it low during the cycle (or both). There are a variety of ways to accomplish this, including GFO, lanthanum (especially in pre-treatments) and acid washing."

The nice thing about facts are that facts don't care who hates them or not.

[earwicker7]

Originally Posted by Zalick

First, its semantics if one person says "rock is leaching phosphate" and another says "no, its the microscopic organic matter inside the tiny microscopic pores in the rock that's leaching the phosphate".

Second, I trust Randy over BRS or pretty much anyone else claiming its a myth: Randy Holmes-Farley says rocks can leach phosphates.

Here is his quote from another site:
Randy Holmes-Farley says "The phosphate on the rock is in equilibrium with phosphate in the water. So having the rock in water with a low to very low phosphate concentration will slowly remove it from the rock. You can do that before setup, or you can keep it low during the cycle (or both). There are a variety of ways to accomplish this, including GFO, lanthanum (especially in pre-treatments) and acid washing."

The nice thing about facts are that facts don't care who hates them or not.

So you're claiming that rocks with absolutely no decaying organic material in them will leach phosphates?

What's next? "My acrylic is leaching phosphates!" from someone who hasn't cleaned their sump in five years?

[Zalick]

I'm quoting Randy, a Ph chemist specializing in marine and dedicated a ton of his research to aquaria, stating that yes, calcium carbonate that binds phosphates will indeed leach phosphates into low or no phosphate water to reach equilibrium.

Ad hominem remarks don't advance your argument.

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[earwicker7]

Originally Posted by Zalick

I'm quoting Randy, a Ph chemist specializing in marine and dedicated a ton of his research to aquaria, stating that yes, calcium carbonate that binds phosphates will indeed leach phosphates into low or no phosphate water to reach equilibrium.

Ad hominem remarks don't advance your argument.

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This is a quote from Randy:

"I would suggest that there are three types of rock that can release phosphate over time, and, of course, many that do not:

1. Rock that has dead organic matter on it (like dead algae/sponges/etc.), no matter how old or where it came from. The organics will break down and release some phosphate. Bleach might be the best way to treat this rock, followed by some way to remove the inorganic phosphate that may result (like rinsing in low phosphate water).

2. Rock that, even if once pristine, was exposed to higher than desirable inorganic phosphate concentrations at the end of its time in an aquarium. This will be inorganic phosphate bound to the calcium carbonate surfaces, and will be somewhat easier to get rid of than the organic matter in 1. Keeping the rock in low phosphate water long enough will work, as can dissolving away the outside in acid.

3. Mined rock that has been exposed to terrestrial phosphate in runoff may have a lot of phosphate permeating it. An acid treatment might not be optimal for this as the phosphate may also be deeper inside of it, and treatment in low phosphate water for an extended period might be best."

So, yeah... number one is what I said, number two is what I said, and three is mined dead rock from polluted areas might be polluted.

[Zalick]

Originally Posted by earwicker7

This is a quote from Randy:



"I would suggest that there are three types of rock that can release phosphate over time, and, of course, many that do not:



1. Rock that has dead organic matter on it (like dead algae/sponges/etc.), no matter how old or where it came from. The organics will break down and release some phosphate. Bleach might be the best way to treat this rock, followed by some way to remove the inorganic phosphate that may result (like rinsing in low phosphate water).



2. Rock that, even if once pristine, was exposed to higher than desirable inorganic phosphate concentrations at the end of its time in an aquarium. This will be inorganic phosphate bound to the calcium carbonate surfaces, and will be somewhat easier to get rid of than the organic matter in 1. Keeping the rock in low phosphate water long enough will work, as can dissolving away the outside in acid.



3. Mined rock that has been exposed to terrestrial phosphate in runoff may have a lot of phosphate permeating it. An acid treatment might not be optimal for this as the phosphate may also be deeper inside of it, and treatment in low phosphate water for an extended period might be best."



So, yeah... number one is what I said, number two is what I said, and three is mined dead rock from polluted areas might be polluted.

So yeah, the quote I gave above is from that same thread. Read the whole thread You can also read his advanced aquaria article. That also states bound phosphates will seek equilibrium in low or no phosphate water.



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[Zalick]

1. Fact: Phosphates bind to calcium carbonate.
2. Fact: low or no phosphate RO/DI saltwater will steal phosphate from phosphate laden calcium carbonate in order to reach equilibrium.
3. Fact: chemistry is real.

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[Zalick]

Originally Posted by earwicker7

This is a quote from Randy:



"I would suggest that there are three types of rock that can release phosphate over time, and, of course, many that do not:



1. Rock that has dead organic matter on it (like dead algae/sponges/etc.), no matter how old or where it came from. The organics will break down and release some phosphate. Bleach might be the best way to treat this rock, followed by some way to remove the inorganic phosphate that may result (like rinsing in low phosphate water).



2. Rock that, even if once pristine, was exposed to higher than desirable inorganic phosphate concentrations at the end of its time in an aquarium. This will be inorganic phosphate bound to the calcium carbonate surfaces, and will be somewhat easier to get rid of than the organic matter in 1. Keeping the rock in low phosphate water long enough will work, as can dissolving away the outside in acid.



3. Mined rock that has been exposed to terrestrial phosphate in runoff may have a lot of phosphate permeating it. An acid treatment might not be optimal for this as the phosphate may also be deeper inside of it, and treatment in low phosphate water for an extended period might be best."



So, yeah... number one is what I said, number two is what I said, and three is mined dead rock from polluted areas might be polluted.

Also, read his #2 again carefully. It's states my point in plain terms.

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[Zalick]

Originally Posted by earwicker7

This is a quote from Randy:



"I would suggest that there are three types of rock that can release phosphate over time . . .



2. . . . This will be inorganic phosphate bound to the calcium carbonate surfaces, and will be somewhat easier to get rid of than the organic matter in 1. Keeping the rock in low phosphate water long enough will work . . .

#2 is what I said. Rocks can leach phosphate. #endofdebate

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[JPMagyar]

Go to youtube and type in Mexican turbo snails eating hair algae. Don't dose chemicals. Get rid of any filtration you have besides a skimmer including and especially GAC or GFO. Add a dozen Mexican Turbo snails and a couple pieces of new live rock from KP Aquatics. I am not a newbie and I know a thing or two about combating hair algae. Ask me how JPMagyar's tank thread

[sde1500]

Originally Posted by JPMagyar

I am not a newbie and know what I am saying.

Neither are the two, myself included, who recommended Fluco. Not sure why that was necessary to include.