Nitrates...

meklo_h2o · 05/22/2006, 05:11 PM

I am having trouble keeping my nitrates down. Recently my nitrates spiked while I was working out of town. When I returned my xenias were just about dead. I have done about a 40-45 percent water change and my nitrates still tested pretty high. About 10 ppm. Btw, since I have started my tank my nitrates have never really been 0, just wont go that low. My xenias have started to perk up and look a little better, still very rough looking from the parts that started to die off. Now, should I do another water change or what?

I also want to know about my cannister filter, it doesn't have near the flow it used to have. So I cleaned the impellers, hoses, and the cannister. The flow didn't improve. So, should my next step be to clean out the baskets? Does filter floss and sponges restrict flow rate? To much media maybe? Should I go with ceramics(sp) instead?

Lastly, do I need to frag off the good parts of my xenia to save it? Or will it rejuvinate by itself? I have a pink xenia and a blue xenia. I have read about fragging them, but I am hoping that they will "heal" themselves.

parameters:
calc 380 - decreased when I did my water change, was 440
nitrates 10 ppm
nitrites- 0
ammonia- 0
ph-8.2
specific gravity- 1.025

Anyway, any comments is appreciated. Would like some good sound advice.

Meklo

Spectre2006 · 05/22/2006, 05:39 PM

If nitrates are the only thing that is out of wack, means that you need to figure out why if you haven't. You can use a nitrate sponge in the short term, but water changes seem to be the gold standard.

Do you have a sand bed in your tank? The final end product if nitrates is nitrogen gas, from bacteria in anaerobic sites in your aquarium or DSB or refugium or live rock. Or organic fixation into parts of living things.

Chris

Spectre2006 · 05/22/2006, 06:30 PM

I scrapped my canister filter awhile back, I wouldn't use one unless it has bioballs that can be rinsed out with ro water when you change it. Filter floss and carbon might be ok in the short term but they are even worse traps then bioballs. I would mainly use the cannister filter for nitrite->nitrate conversion. Not as a true mechanical filter. The other thing to do might be to get a magnum and use the micron cartridge setup with it this will be your mechanical filter. I have a brand new mini magnum that has a leak near the seam. The O ring is possibly defective. I haven't gotten around to fixing it. It came with a sealant that I didn't apply, you might not even need to replace the O ring just apply some sealant. I was gona give it away. Not quite sure about the logistics here of giving something away.

Chris

meklo_h2o · 05/22/2006, 08:48 PM

I am not sure why my nitrates are high, that is why I posted, for possible ideas. But, I do have a sand bed, I have about 1.5 inches of aragonite.

As far as my cannister filter is concerned, I do not use it for the mechanical filtration, I use it to house my bacteria. I do not have bio balls, but do plan on switching media. I am probably going with activated carbon, ceramic bodies, and filter floss. I also have a casscade 200 and protien skimmer. I also use my cannister filter for circulation. I use the output to blow over my corals and create good water movement over them.

I still am curious as to how I need to care for my xenias now that they are unhealthy. They are about 1/3 the size they used to be, they wither up quickly and don't fully expose themselves. Might be fully extented for only 1/2 the day.

Anyway, if anyone can help me out, I would aprecciate it.

Meklo

chaseracing · 05/22/2006, 09:09 PM

Meklo,

For your Xenia pay attention to the lighting and water flow. My xenia are the first to act up when something changes. Sometimes it takes days for them to come back to their original state.

Also, in my opinion, nitrate levels of 10 are nothing to worry to much about. Your levels can go a lot higher than that before things start dying. I am not saying that you shouldn't try to get it to zero, but at the same time don't let it keep you up at nights.

-=E=-

meklo_h2o · 05/23/2006, 04:22 PM

I know that there is a certian balance between the anaerobic bacteria in all of my live rock, filter media, sand bed, and etc... and the amount of ammonia/nitrite that they can process. Like saying there can't be more bacteria than there is ammonia to feed them. So, would I be hurt by pulling half of my filter media in my cannister to hopefully get better flow and possibly reduce the amount of nitrate excreted? This sound right?

socalreefer73 · 05/23/2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by meklo_h2o
I know that there is a certian balance between the anaerobic bacteria in all of my live rock, filter media, sand bed, and etc... and the amount of ammonia/nitrite that they can process. Like saying there can't be more bacteria than there is ammonia to feed them. So, would I be hurt by pulling half of my filter media in my cannister to hopefully get better flow and possibly reduce the amount of nitrate excreted? This sound right?

Better flow through your cannister will not reduce nitrates excreted from the cannister. Anaerobic to anoxic areas(very low to no oxygen) are the only areas that harbor the nitrate eating bacterias. I don't know if you've ever researched mechanical denitrators, but they are essentially super long coils of hose in a tube to which water is practically dripped through.

Cannister filters are out of favor in the hobby right now, unless you're using them for mechanical filtrration only and you are very good about keeping them clean(bacterial populations low). I'm surprised no one hasn't spoken up already. You're much better off with more LR. LR harbors the anaerobic bacteria inside the rock which convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas.

How much LR do you have? What kind of skimmer?

Nitrates are ultimately caused by the nutrients you add to the water which is mostly food.

I remember reading someone said something about rinsing bioballs in ro water -- bio balls have fallen out of favor in favor of LR. And rinsing them in RO water is a no no... Always old tank water, if you're bent on preserving the bacteria that lives on them -- which is the reason to use bio-balls in the first place (but again, no anaerobic areas).

beefcake · 05/23/2006, 11:35 PM

I wish my nitrates were as low as 10. :-/

meklo_h2o · 05/24/2006, 04:13 PM

socalreefer,

I have 75-80 lbs of LR in my 55 gal. My protien skimmer is a Seaclone 150, by Aquarium Systems Inc. (the people that make instant ocean). I also have a little hang on the back filter with floss cartridge and carbon. I know my cannister does some mechanical filtration, but I thought it was more useful as a house for bacteria. Is there enough anaerobic bacteria in my rock to allow me to use my cannister for something better?

meklo_h2o · 05/24/2006, 04:14 PM

Is my filtration inadequate?

Meklo

socalreefer73 · 05/24/2006, 05:12 PM

Seaclones are known to be bad skimmers. I've used an aquaC remora and never had a problem. Everythign I've heard about seaclones is that they don't work very well, and the mods people do to them is probably a testament to that. For HOBs, aquaC and Deltec are the brands in favor right now.

It sounds like you have plenty of LR in your aquarium. I personally would ditch the cannister. Your HOB filter you should keep, to run carbon in, occasionally. You might want to look into getting some poly filter to run in there too (absorbs chemicals).

I never used any sort of mechanical filtration for my 29g and I didn't have any problems. Good flow should keep particles suspended so that your skimmer can pull them out. How that translates to a 55g, I'm not sure.

Other than throwing money at the problem by getting a better skimmer, cut back on your feeding. The food you add is ultimately when turns into nitrates, so without a nutrient export system like a better skimmer or a macro algae refugium you nitrates will be high as you overfeed.

I take it someone else fed your tank while you were on vacation? My guess is that they overfed the tank. I want to say I read somewhere that it is better to *not* feed your tank on short vacations than to have an inexperienced person do it in your absense. I think with time it should reduce on its own, but I think your caretaker overfed. People like to lure your fishes to the middle of te tank with food so they can oogle at them...

Just remember, nothing good happens quickly in this hobby.

socalreefer73 · 05/24/2006, 05:17 PM

High volume water changes can also shock your system and cause some die-off, which in-turn will lead to increased nitrates.

How are your xenia doing now?

How were your other coral specimens when you got back?

starseed · 05/24/2006, 05:25 PM

Let me clearly say, that at 5 months old, you are starting to see the beginnings of a cronic nitrate problem. You need to fix this ASAP or the nitrates will rise.

For your tank size, you're live rock alone is more than enough filtration.

All you really need is:

*75-80 lbs. of live rock

*Skimmer

To lower your nitrates, I would get rid of the following:

*Canister Filter (for biological filtration) - your rock is enough

*1.5 inches of Aragonite - this does nothing to help with filtration, but it does trap detrius, food, and poop where it will convert into ammonia and release into the water stream (that is what will lead to high nitrates over the long term) - instead go either BB, or DSB (not my perference - I'm BB), or at the least, use a thin layer of fine fine grain sand and get tons of sand clean-up critters.

You could also do the following:

*Use your canister filter for chemical filtration using carbon, phosphate sponges, and in your case, nitrate sponges - changing the media at least once a week or as directed (you DO NOT want bactria to colonize the media - no filter floss, no ceranic, no bio-balls, nothing intended for bacterial colonization)

If you are going to remove some of your equipment, I would start with the canister filter - either totally remove the media and replace with carbon (which will help with the conversion OR take out half for 2 weeks, then the rest and add carbon then.

Is the Aragonite large or fine sand? If it's large, GET IT OUT ASAP. Otherwise you will continue to see ntirates rise. If it's fine fine sand, get a ton of sand critters that will eat the trapped food and poop.

I've had my 55 for 5 years now and I've tried everything.

The best moves I ever made was first removing the bio filter (mine was a wet/dry which I converted to a sump).

Then I tried the DSB, which didn't help over one year, then converted to BB - nitrates went down to 2-3 from 50-80.

I now have a chemical filter and use powerphos or carbon (and I would use a nitrate spong, but don't need to) and I swich it out every week (3 weeks of carbon, changed every week [you only need 3 cups of cheap carbon or 1 cup of reef carbon] and 1 week of powerphos

Leave the Xenia to recover - nitrates at 10 are not a problem for them IMO.

Hope that helps.

TOURKID · 05/24/2006, 05:25 PM

i dont see nitrates being the problem at all. i would think about what else there could be that sent things out of whack.

you might be overlooking somthing

i had my tank for 4 months and never touched the substrate. i bought a gravel vac and used it.. the sand and crushed coral were really dirty. My nitrates went from 5 to 60 within 2 days.

Lost a few snails, but everything else was just fine. back to normal now after some major changes

starseed · 05/24/2006, 05:36 PM

Well....

I don't see an Alk reading posted.
Cal is too low from a water change and could also be low in Alk
pH should be read from a probe and not a test

It's a young tank, so I think the nitrates should be watched and if they are rising, look for the cause and change it.

05/22/2006, 05:11 PM	#1
meklo_h2o Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 67	Nitrates... I am having trouble keeping my nitrates down. Recently my nitrates spiked while I was working out of town. When I returned my xenias were just about dead. I have done about a 40-45 percent water change and my nitrates still tested pretty high. About 10 ppm. Btw, since I have started my tank my nitrates have never really been 0, just wont go that low. My xenias have started to perk up and look a little better, still very rough looking from the parts that started to die off. Now, should I do another water change or what? I also want to know about my cannister filter, it doesn't have near the flow it used to have. So I cleaned the impellers, hoses, and the cannister. The flow didn't improve. So, should my next step be to clean out the baskets? Does filter floss and sponges restrict flow rate? To much media maybe? Should I go with ceramics(sp) instead? Lastly, do I need to frag off the good parts of my xenia to save it? Or will it rejuvinate by itself? I have a pink xenia and a blue xenia. I have read about fragging them, but I am hoping that they will "heal" themselves. parameters: calc 380 - decreased when I did my water change, was 440 nitrates 10 ppm nitrites- 0 ammonia- 0 ph-8.2 specific gravity- 1.025 Anyway, any comments is appreciated. Would like some good sound advice. Meklo

05/22/2006, 09:09 PM	#5
chaseracing Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Bartlett, IL Posts: 1,208	Meklo, For your Xenia pay attention to the lighting and water flow. My xenia are the first to act up when something changes. Sometimes it takes days for them to come back to their original state. Also, in my opinion, nitrate levels of 10 are nothing to worry to much about. Your levels can go a lot higher than that before things start dying. I am not saying that you shouldn't try to get it to zero, but at the same time don't let it keep you up at nights. -=E=- __________________ I want my dog's life. Current Tank Info: 150gal RR Oceanic - (3) 250w. ReefLux 12K, (2) 96w PC 50/50, (3) Tunze 6025 modded, (3) Tunze 6045's, ASM G3, MRC-1, Melev F sump/fuge, all run off of an Aquacontroller Jr. Mixed Reef w/ lots of Fish and not enough rock.

05/23/2006, 11:35 PM	#8
beefcake Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: St. Charles, Mo. Posts: 696	I wish my nitrates were as low as 10. :-/ __________________ Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things. Current Tank Info: 92 gal. corner bowfront, 110 lb fiji, eco-system refugium, 250w Halide w/ 240w of PC lights

05/24/2006, 05:25 PM	#14
TOURKID Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Vegas baby, Vegas Posts: 4,371	i dont see nitrates being the problem at all. i would think about what else there could be that sent things out of whack. you might be overlooking somthing i had my tank for 4 months and never touched the substrate. i bought a gravel vac and used it.. the sand and crushed coral were really dirty. My nitrates went from 5 to 60 within 2 days. Lost a few snails, but everything else was just fine. back to normal now after some major changes __________________ RISK more than others think is safe CARE more than others think is wise DREAM more than others think is practical EXPECT more than others think is possible Current Tank Info: nada

05/22/2006, 05:39 PM	#2
Spectre2006 Reef Addict Join Date: May 2006 Location: Orchard Park, NY Posts: 383	If nitrates are the only thing that is out of wack, means that you need to figure out why if you haven't. You can use a nitrate sponge in the short term, but water changes seem to be the gold standard. Do you have a sand bed in your tank? The final end product if nitrates is nitrogen gas, from bacteria in anaerobic sites in your aquarium or DSB or refugium or live rock. Or organic fixation into parts of living things. Chris

05/22/2006, 06:30 PM	#3
Spectre2006 Reef Addict Join Date: May 2006 Location: Orchard Park, NY Posts: 383	I scrapped my canister filter awhile back, I wouldn't use one unless it has bioballs that can be rinsed out with ro water when you change it. Filter floss and carbon might be ok in the short term but they are even worse traps then bioballs. I would mainly use the cannister filter for nitrite->nitrate conversion. Not as a true mechanical filter. The other thing to do might be to get a magnum and use the micron cartridge setup with it this will be your mechanical filter. I have a brand new mini magnum that has a leak near the seam. The O ring is possibly defective. I haven't gotten around to fixing it. It came with a sealant that I didn't apply, you might not even need to replace the O ring just apply some sealant. I was gona give it away. Not quite sure about the logistics here of giving something away. Chris

05/22/2006, 08:48 PM	#4
meklo_h2o Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 67	I am not sure why my nitrates are high, that is why I posted, for possible ideas. But, I do have a sand bed, I have about 1.5 inches of aragonite. As far as my cannister filter is concerned, I do not use it for the mechanical filtration, I use it to house my bacteria. I do not have bio balls, but do plan on switching media. I am probably going with activated carbon, ceramic bodies, and filter floss. I also have a casscade 200 and protien skimmer. I also use my cannister filter for circulation. I use the output to blow over my corals and create good water movement over them. I still am curious as to how I need to care for my xenias now that they are unhealthy. They are about 1/3 the size they used to be, they wither up quickly and don't fully expose themselves. Might be fully extented for only 1/2 the day. Anyway, if anyone can help me out, I would aprecciate it. Meklo

05/23/2006, 04:22 PM	#6
meklo_h2o Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 67	I know that there is a certian balance between the anaerobic bacteria in all of my live rock, filter media, sand bed, and etc... and the amount of ammonia/nitrite that they can process. Like saying there can't be more bacteria than there is ammonia to feed them. So, would I be hurt by pulling half of my filter media in my cannister to hopefully get better flow and possibly reduce the amount of nitrate excreted? This sound right?

05/24/2006, 04:13 PM	#9
meklo_h2o Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 67	socalreefer, I have 75-80 lbs of LR in my 55 gal. My protien skimmer is a Seaclone 150, by Aquarium Systems Inc. (the people that make instant ocean). I also have a little hang on the back filter with floss cartridge and carbon. I know my cannister does some mechanical filtration, but I thought it was more useful as a house for bacteria. Is there enough anaerobic bacteria in my rock to allow me to use my cannister for something better?

05/24/2006, 04:14 PM	#10
meklo_h2o Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 67	Is my filtration inadequate? Meklo

05/24/2006, 05:12 PM	#11
socalreefer73 Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: San Diego, Ca. Posts: 821	Seaclones are known to be bad skimmers. I've used an aquaC remora and never had a problem. Everythign I've heard about seaclones is that they don't work very well, and the mods people do to them is probably a testament to that. For HOBs, aquaC and Deltec are the brands in favor right now. It sounds like you have plenty of LR in your aquarium. I personally would ditch the cannister. Your HOB filter you should keep, to run carbon in, occasionally. You might want to look into getting some poly filter to run in there too (absorbs chemicals). I never used any sort of mechanical filtration for my 29g and I didn't have any problems. Good flow should keep particles suspended so that your skimmer can pull them out. How that translates to a 55g, I'm not sure. Other than throwing money at the problem by getting a better skimmer, cut back on your feeding. The food you add is ultimately when turns into nitrates, so without a nutrient export system like a better skimmer or a macro algae refugium you nitrates will be high as you overfeed. I take it someone else fed your tank while you were on vacation? My guess is that they overfed the tank. I want to say I read somewhere that it is better to not feed your tank on short vacations than to have an inexperienced person do it in your absense. I think with time it should reduce on its own, but I think your caretaker overfed. People like to lure your fishes to the middle of te tank with food so they can oogle at them... Just remember, nothing good happens quickly in this hobby.

05/24/2006, 05:17 PM	#12
socalreefer73 Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: San Diego, Ca. Posts: 821	High volume water changes can also shock your system and cause some die-off, which in-turn will lead to increased nitrates. How are your xenia doing now? How were your other coral specimens when you got back?

05/24/2006, 05:25 PM	#13
starseed Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 275	Let me clearly say, that at 5 months old, you are starting to see the beginnings of a cronic nitrate problem. You need to fix this ASAP or the nitrates will rise. For your tank size, you're live rock alone is more than enough filtration. All you really need is: 75-80 lbs. of live rock Skimmer To lower your nitrates, I would get rid of the following: Canister Filter (for biological filtration) - your rock is enough 1.5 inches of Aragonite - this does nothing to help with filtration, but it does trap detrius, food, and poop where it will convert into ammonia and release into the water stream (that is what will lead to high nitrates over the long term) - instead go either BB, or DSB (not my perference - I'm BB), or at the least, use a thin layer of fine fine grain sand and get tons of sand clean-up critters. You could also do the following: *Use your canister filter for chemical filtration using carbon, phosphate sponges, and in your case, nitrate sponges - changing the media at least once a week or as directed (you DO NOT want bactria to colonize the media - no filter floss, no ceranic, no bio-balls, nothing intended for bacterial colonization) If you are going to remove some of your equipment, I would start with the canister filter - either totally remove the media and replace with carbon (which will help with the conversion OR take out half for 2 weeks, then the rest and add carbon then. Is the Aragonite large or fine sand? If it's large, GET IT OUT ASAP. Otherwise you will continue to see ntirates rise. If it's fine fine sand, get a ton of sand critters that will eat the trapped food and poop. I've had my 55 for 5 years now and I've tried everything. The best moves I ever made was first removing the bio filter (mine was a wet/dry which I converted to a sump). Then I tried the DSB, which didn't help over one year, then converted to BB - nitrates went down to 2-3 from 50-80. I now have a chemical filter and use powerphos or carbon (and I would use a nitrate spong, but don't need to) and I swich it out every week (3 weeks of carbon, changed every week [you only need 3 cups of cheap carbon or 1 cup of reef carbon] and 1 week of powerphos Leave the Xenia to recover - nitrates at 10 are not a problem for them IMO. Hope that helps.

05/24/2006, 05:36 PM	#15
starseed Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 275	Well.... I don't see an Alk reading posted. Cal is too low from a water change and could also be low in Alk pH should be read from a probe and not a test It's a young tank, so I think the nitrates should be watched and if they are rising, look for the cause and change it.