Help Flame Angel Sick

falconut · 05/30/2006, 06:56 PM

I've had my Flame Angel in QT for 3 - 4 weeks now. Eating everything and looking great, then yesterday his one eye swells up. Now today he looks really pale and his side fins are frayed.

He is in a 10 gal. tank, with a leather frag, kenya tree frag, a xenia frag and the only other fish is a blue/green chromis. The only thing I added was the Xenia about 4 - 5 days ago.

Does anybody know what this could be? Do I need to medicate? I did do a 1 gal. water change. Any ideas?

TWallace · 05/30/2006, 08:12 PM

You'll probably have more luck posting this in the Fish Disease Treatment forum.

falconut · 05/31/2006, 08:17 AM

Thanks, I posted over there too. I didn't realize there was a diease forum.

But if anybody has any ideas, please let me know. I'd hate to see him die. Especially if there's something I can do to save him.

KDodds · 05/31/2006, 09:26 AM

A month in a 10 gallon with another fish and corals is a pretty long time for a Centropyge like a Flame to be QT'd in. I'd respectfully suggest a much larger QT tank with far fewer occupants (you should only be QTing a single specimen or species at a time, or else it's not QT, its transient housing). Many Angels (and Tangs and Butterflies) exhibit these symptoms as secondary infections, possibly due to bacterial concentrations in the water column, not as primary ones. Are there any symptoms of Amyloodinium or Brooklynella infection? Cryptocaryon?

Cloudy eyes, by themselves, will usually clear up on their own provided that the fish is moved to appropriate housing. A 10g tank is, IMO, not appropriate housing for any Centropyge, even as a QT, with the exceptions of the species in the "Argi" complex. Sorry I could not be of more help, but, IMO, the real solution here is to not use your QT as a secondary tank, to procure a more suitable QT, and to change your QT methods. That doesn't NOT help this fish. If you start now, the fish may turn around, but if you don't, even with accurate symptoms of primary infection to go by, a treatment plan in the current system really isn't possible.

Sk8r · 05/31/2006, 09:49 AM

The eye may look alarming, but if you can correctly id what the problem is, there may be a good treatment.

How are conditions in your main tank? Ready for a fish?
Try to have them as good as possible, and if you've had irritation on the fish, be particularly careful of the alkalinity-calcium balance: 8.3 alk and 400 cal is a good figure to shoot for. That will settle the ph at about 8.3 and lock it there, unless you have something drinking up the calcium.

falconut · 05/31/2006, 11:21 AM

My display has been up for over a year. I was just making sure there was nothing wrong with the angel before releasing him into my reef.

KDodds · 05/31/2006, 11:32 AM

It's hard to say. As I already stated, this is probably a secondary infection. Paling could be a symptom of Brooklynella. Does there look to be any sloughing? Does it maybe look like the fish is "dusted" (Amyloodinium)? My insinct tells me that this fish should be moved to a larger hospital tank for a more prolonged stay.

Murph72 · 05/31/2006, 11:38 AM

Swelling eye? Do you have water bubbles in the tank like a bubbler of some kind?
Is the fish still eating? Moving about erratically? Hiding? Anything types of growths on the fish.....dusty or cloudy looking? White spots? Is he scratching at all?
Often times, their behavior is an indication of the problem even as much as their physical appearance.

falconut · 05/31/2006, 12:18 PM

KDodds - I'm not sure what sloughing is. He doesn't look like there's any dusting.

Murph71 - I don't have any bubble stones, just a skimmer and a Aquaclear hang on filling with base rock. He was still eating yesterday. He was out swimming and had no growths, white spots, not dusty or cloudy looking and not scrathing.

The only thing I can figure was the day after I put in my old breeder net to house a peppermint shrimp that started eating the Xenia, was when his eye swelled up. And the next day his color looked faded and his side fins looked a little torn on the ends. The water did have a slight oder too.

I have done 1 gal. W.C. each day now. I tested the Ammonia = 0 and NO3 = 0.25. So I'm stumped.

I don't have another tank, so I may have to move the frags and treat. Just not sure with what medicine.

falconut · 05/31/2006, 12:20 PM

I also removed the peppermint shrimp and the breeder net, last night.

KDodds · 05/31/2006, 12:25 PM

Sloughing = shedding, any "shedding" of the mucous coat or over-production of mucous? From teh sounds of it, it MIGHT just be a bacterial infection and nothing more. If that is the case, the best place might be in the main tank. But that's a lot of IFs. No way to setup a 20-30g tank for the fish as a hospital/longer QT?

falconut · 05/31/2006, 12:29 PM

No then, there is no shedding of the mucous coat. I don't have another tank to setup or the room for one.

I too nervous to add him to my display looking like he does. Plus I'm afraid of the locals, with him in a weakened condition.

Do you have to treat a baterial infection? Or should I just try to keep the water really clean?

omni2226 · 05/31/2006, 12:31 PM

Sounds to me like there is nothing to treat but dirty water.

Quit messing around and either move the fish to the main display or take 5 gallons of water from the 90 and do a 50% water change in the ten gallon after removing everything but the angel fish and a plastic cup for it to hide in.

KDodds · 05/31/2006, 12:35 PM

I agree one way or the other, the Angel needs to be alone and the conditions need to be pristine, or as pristine as the main tank at least.

As I stated before, such infections usually clear up on their own IF the accomodations are adequate. An overcrowded 10 is not adequate in my opinion.

falconut · 05/31/2006, 12:38 PM

I'll be at the LFS tonight. Should I pick up any med's or just move all the residents out?

I am also not running the lights today.

KDodds · 05/31/2006, 12:55 PM

Treating the unknown is often worse than not treating it and providing the best possible case for the fish in question to use its own immune system to fight the disease. I can not in good conscience recommend either course. Risk the main display and save the Flame, or risk the Flame and save the main display. If you can't set up a larger treatment/QT tank these are your only viable options. Treating resolves nothing if the organism (which can't be identified) is immune to the treatment, except maybe to further weaken the the tank's tenuous stability and possibly the fish's immune system.

falconut · 05/31/2006, 01:14 PM

OK thanks for your information.

05/30/2006, 06:56 PM	#1
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	Help Flame Angel Sick I've had my Flame Angel in QT for 3 - 4 weeks now. Eating everything and looking great, then yesterday his one eye swells up. Now today he looks really pale and his side fins are frayed. He is in a 10 gal. tank, with a leather frag, kenya tree frag, a xenia frag and the only other fish is a blue/green chromis. The only thing I added was the Xenia about 4 - 5 days ago. Does anybody know what this could be? Do I need to medicate? I did do a 1 gal. water change. Any ideas?

05/31/2006, 08:17 AM	#3
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	Thanks, I posted over there too. I didn't realize there was a diease forum. But if anybody has any ideas, please let me know. I'd hate to see him die. Especially if there's something I can do to save him. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

05/31/2006, 09:26 AM	#4
KDodds Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 2,731	A month in a 10 gallon with another fish and corals is a pretty long time for a Centropyge like a Flame to be QT'd in. I'd respectfully suggest a much larger QT tank with far fewer occupants (you should only be QTing a single specimen or species at a time, or else it's not QT, its transient housing). Many Angels (and Tangs and Butterflies) exhibit these symptoms as secondary infections, possibly due to bacterial concentrations in the water column, not as primary ones. Are there any symptoms of Amyloodinium or Brooklynella infection? Cryptocaryon? Cloudy eyes, by themselves, will usually clear up on their own provided that the fish is moved to appropriate housing. A 10g tank is, IMO, not appropriate housing for any Centropyge, even as a QT, with the exceptions of the species in the "Argi" complex. Sorry I could not be of more help, but, IMO, the real solution here is to not use your QT as a secondary tank, to procure a more suitable QT, and to change your QT methods. That doesn't NOT help this fish. If you start now, the fish may turn around, but if you don't, even with accurate symptoms of primary infection to go by, a treatment plan in the current system really isn't possible. __________________ The sum of my knowledge is great, the sum of my ignorance greater still Kieron Dodds Administrator Inside Aquatics Current Tank Info: 450 Reef/180 FOWLR/125 ARLC/40 Seahorse/12 Planted/12 Planted

05/31/2006, 09:49 AM	#5
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	The eye may look alarming, but if you can correctly id what the problem is, there may be a good treatment. How are conditions in your main tank? Ready for a fish? Try to have them as good as possible, and if you've had irritation on the fish, be particularly careful of the alkalinity-calcium balance: 8.3 alk and 400 cal is a good figure to shoot for. That will settle the ph at about 8.3 and lock it there, unless you have something drinking up the calcium. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

05/31/2006, 11:21 AM	#6
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	My display has been up for over a year. I was just making sure there was nothing wrong with the angel before releasing him into my reef. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

05/30/2006, 08:12 PM	#2
TWallace Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,464	You'll probably have more luck posting this in the Fish Disease Treatment forum.

05/31/2006, 11:32 AM	#7
KDodds Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 2,731	It's hard to say. As I already stated, this is probably a secondary infection. Paling could be a symptom of Brooklynella. Does there look to be any sloughing? Does it maybe look like the fish is "dusted" (Amyloodinium)? My insinct tells me that this fish should be moved to a larger hospital tank for a more prolonged stay. __________________ The sum of my knowledge is great, the sum of my ignorance greater still Kieron Dodds Administrator Inside Aquatics Current Tank Info: 450 Reef/180 FOWLR/125 ARLC/40 Seahorse/12 Planted/12 Planted

05/31/2006, 11:38 AM	#8
Murph72 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Catawissa, PA Posts: 228	Swelling eye? Do you have water bubbles in the tank like a bubbler of some kind? Is the fish still eating? Moving about erratically? Hiding? Anything types of growths on the fish.....dusty or cloudy looking? White spots? Is he scratching at all? Often times, their behavior is an indication of the problem even as much as their physical appearance.

05/31/2006, 12:18 PM	#9
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	KDodds - I'm not sure what sloughing is. He doesn't look like there's any dusting. Murph71 - I don't have any bubble stones, just a skimmer and a Aquaclear hang on filling with base rock. He was still eating yesterday. He was out swimming and had no growths, white spots, not dusty or cloudy looking and not scrathing. The only thing I can figure was the day after I put in my old breeder net to house a peppermint shrimp that started eating the Xenia, was when his eye swelled up. And the next day his color looked faded and his side fins looked a little torn on the ends. The water did have a slight oder too. I have done 1 gal. W.C. each day now. I tested the Ammonia = 0 and NO3 = 0.25. So I'm stumped. I don't have another tank, so I may have to move the frags and treat. Just not sure with what medicine. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

05/31/2006, 12:20 PM	#10
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	I also removed the peppermint shrimp and the breeder net, last night. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

05/31/2006, 12:25 PM	#11
KDodds Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 2,731	Sloughing = shedding, any "shedding" of the mucous coat or over-production of mucous? From teh sounds of it, it MIGHT just be a bacterial infection and nothing more. If that is the case, the best place might be in the main tank. But that's a lot of IFs. No way to setup a 20-30g tank for the fish as a hospital/longer QT? __________________ The sum of my knowledge is great, the sum of my ignorance greater still Kieron Dodds Administrator Inside Aquatics Current Tank Info: 450 Reef/180 FOWLR/125 ARLC/40 Seahorse/12 Planted/12 Planted

05/31/2006, 12:29 PM	#12
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	No then, there is no shedding of the mucous coat. I don't have another tank to setup or the room for one. I too nervous to add him to my display looking like he does. Plus I'm afraid of the locals, with him in a weakened condition. Do you have to treat a baterial infection? Or should I just try to keep the water really clean? __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

05/31/2006, 12:31 PM	#13
omni2226 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Middle Florida Posts: 774	Sounds to me like there is nothing to treat but dirty water. Quit messing around and either move the fish to the main display or take 5 gallons of water from the 90 and do a 50% water change in the ten gallon after removing everything but the angel fish and a plastic cup for it to hide in. __________________ I know enough to know I know nothing. Current Tank Info: 55 Marine. 29 Freshwater planted.

05/31/2006, 12:35 PM	#14
KDodds Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 2,731	I agree one way or the other, the Angel needs to be alone and the conditions need to be pristine, or as pristine as the main tank at least. As I stated before, such infections usually clear up on their own IF the accomodations are adequate. An overcrowded 10 is not adequate in my opinion. __________________ The sum of my knowledge is great, the sum of my ignorance greater still Kieron Dodds Administrator Inside Aquatics Current Tank Info: 450 Reef/180 FOWLR/125 ARLC/40 Seahorse/12 Planted/12 Planted

05/31/2006, 12:38 PM	#15
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	I'll be at the LFS tonight. Should I pick up any med's or just move all the residents out? I am also not running the lights today. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.

05/31/2006, 12:55 PM	#16
KDodds Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Suffern, NY Posts: 2,731	Treating the unknown is often worse than not treating it and providing the best possible case for the fish in question to use its own immune system to fight the disease. I can not in good conscience recommend either course. Risk the main display and save the Flame, or risk the Flame and save the main display. If you can't set up a larger treatment/QT tank these are your only viable options. Treating resolves nothing if the organism (which can't be identified) is immune to the treatment, except maybe to further weaken the the tank's tenuous stability and possibly the fish's immune system. __________________ The sum of my knowledge is great, the sum of my ignorance greater still Kieron Dodds Administrator Inside Aquatics Current Tank Info: 450 Reef/180 FOWLR/125 ARLC/40 Seahorse/12 Planted/12 Planted

05/31/2006, 01:14 PM	#17
falconut Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Blackwood, NJ Posts: 3,813	OK thanks for your information. __________________ 180 Gallon FOWLR, 40 Gallon Sump and 10 Gallon Refuge. (2) OceanRevive S026 LEDs, ASM G2 Skimmer & SCA-302 Skimmer. Setup since July 2017.