I am ready to give up and leave the hobby over this.

derick75 · 06/14/2006, 10:22 PM

I have posted 26 posts in 9 forums, i have talked to pros like bob fenner and had 3 reef "gurus" try to help all failed to identify this problem. Microbubbles yes im sure you have gone through this problem before i have lost 2 fish and several corals over this and about to call it quits. I have the 75 gallon mega flow tank , in combo with the tidepool 2 sump. i have microbubbles returing from the return line of the megaflow i have done every thing i can possibly think of to fix this with no luck. i have glued my entire return line and placed the loc line totaly under water no possible air in the return still have the bubbles. of course i used hose clamps on all connections..i have removed all ball valves, tried 3 different pumps mag 7 posidon ehiem, tried 2 types of hoses, removed skimmer and all powerheads in the sump placed several baffels in the sump still no luck. No matter what i have tried the bubbles remain. My last attempt was to call AGA and talk to their customer support that was a joke they knew nothing, she did not even know what a "skimmer" was. They put me in contact with a guy in penn who was supose to troubleshoot these types of problems after an hour on the phone, 16 different pictures, and 3 videos of the problem, he had me take my return line straight from the pump into the tank skipping the overflow so i took a 8 foot 3/4 " hose went from the pump and stuck it into the tank..microbubbles,, i tried that with the mag 7 ehiem and posiedon he concluded that i have too much oxygen or carbon gass or some sh#@ in my water..I love thid hobby but these bubbles have really taken its toll...

Art_Vandelay · 06/14/2006, 10:48 PM

I had that problem for days. . .maybe even a couple weeks now that I think about it. I was gonna give up too. I fixed my problem by throttling down the return pump. I found that when it's on "full blast" it causes cavitation. I found that there is a set point at which I can run my pump and that is it. . . no more. So my fix came from putting a ball valve in the return line about 6 inches up from the return pump. The pump runs at about 65%.
A micron sock works miracles as well. REALLY WELL. (100 micron size)
I also have a refugium in line in which the macroaglae acts like a filter also and catches more bubbles.
I hope some of this works or at least gives you inspiration to hang in there.
You could also put a ball valve on the drain lines from the overflow to slow them down as well. This takes careful adjustment as you do not want to overflow your tank.
All these things seemed to work for me.
Good Luck!

asmujica · 06/14/2006, 10:49 PM

Have you tried replacing the hardware that came with the tank and installing a durso pipe?

Have you tried running less water through the sump?

How big is your sump?

In this hobby you will end up troubleshooting something eventually, that is what most people enjoy about it.

arozz7 · 06/14/2006, 10:58 PM

I am presently having similar problems and will try the throttling of return line. I will post if that worked for me.

Mike.B · 06/14/2006, 11:37 PM

Does your overflow take bubbles into the sump?

Ereefic · 06/14/2006, 11:45 PM

MY return pump intake goes up and over the side of the sump. I recently had bubbles being returned to the tank and couldn't figure out why. I put a filter sock over the intake tube so the pump had to pull the water threw the sock, and no more microbubbles.

derick75 · 06/15/2006, 12:38 AM

well i dont mind trouble shooting at all but i have been doing it for months..I have had great pleasure in customizing my tank as well. I also tried the micron sock and it did not work, the mag7 was pushing about 500gph and still bubbles i dont want to go any lower then that, the megaflow kit i bought is the durso type as well. I have absolutely no clue as to where the air is coming from. I am informed about pumps cavitating but like i said i have tried 3 different pumps and they all produce bubbles and it is not just a little here or there it is a constant stream of them, i dont know if others have pvc glued there megaflow return but it did not help for me..and remember this problem is so bad I pulled everything out of the sump shut off all powerheads waited a hour or so untill all bubbles in the tank have risen to the top, now my tank is bubble free no movement in the tank then turn on pump and here comes the bubbles.

asmujica · 06/15/2006, 12:43 AM

How big is the sump?

Mike.B · 06/15/2006, 01:41 AM

Can I see some pictures of your sump, specifically where the overflow pipe enters your sump and the return pump area.

jake ballard · 06/15/2006, 02:17 AM

i beleve your sump is to small! needs to be bigger

jlcrandall · 06/15/2006, 04:29 AM

Like above, sump is too small. Where is the skimmer returning the water too? Many microbubble problems come from the return from the skimmer finding an easy/fast route to the return pump. The same container? If you could add another container and maybe fill it with LR rubble, sorta like melev did, it might break up alot of the bubbles. Maybe try the micron sock on the skimmer return.

Just my .02.

Elvis

RichConley · 06/15/2006, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Art_Vandelay
I had that problem for days. . .maybe even a couple weeks now that I think about it. I was gonna give up too. I fixed my problem by throttling down the return pump. I found that when it's on "full blast" it causes cavitation. I found that there is a set point at which I can run my pump and that is it. . . no more. So my fix came from putting a ball valve in the return line about 6 inches up from the return pump. The pump runs at about 65%.

Is your pump external? Or have any fittings on its intake? If throttling down a pump stops bubbles, then the pump is cavitating because it can't suck in enough water.

old salty · 06/15/2006, 07:36 AM

Another thing you can look at is that if the pumps you are running are internal (under water), how deep is the water that they are in? If I don't put my Seio powerheads far enough under the water, they create a vortex strong enough to suck in air from 5 inches above.

TroyPierce · 06/15/2006, 09:26 AM

I had a similar problem and it turned out to be my bulkhead had a defect in it allowing just enough air into the return line.

Good Luck with your quest. I know it's frustrating to have these kinds of problems with no obvious cause.

Fiziksgeek · 06/15/2006, 09:45 AM

Sorry to hear your so bummed out. These pesky problems can beat on ya for a while. Since you stated that the the micro bubble persit even when all of the power heads and skimmer is off, your are left with only a few possibilities:

The bubbles are created in the sump and not given time to rise out before getting to the return pump.

The pump is cavitating and creating bubbles.

The pump is sucking in water from the surface because the water level is too low.

There is a pin hole in the plumbing which sucks air in.

Anyone else have items to add? lets brain storm a list, and go after this one item at a time.

Also, where are you from? Is there a local reef club? Perhaps a member or two would be willing to come over and help trouble shoot with you. Sometimes its just needs a second set of eyes...

Paulairduck · 06/15/2006, 09:51 AM

There is no way it is the durso, if it puts air into the sump, all of them do put some type of bubble's in the sump. I would remove the biowheel from the sumps and just run a hose to the bottom of the sump. Put some live rock in the sump for your filtration and keep the flow between 400-600 gph, no more. Almost every problem that I have seen with microbubbles is from too much flow going through the sump.

Or you can go down to your local fish store and get yourselve a 20 gallon tank and a tube of aquarium grade silicon, then go to home depot and get the 3 pieces of glass for your bubble baffle. The glass they sell there fits perfect no cutting. I just made one and it cost me around fifty dollars for everything and I have been able to run upwards of 800 gph through the sump and no return bubble problems. If you go to the gallery and look under sumps, there are many pictures of different sumps setups that will work for you.

ek9vboi · 06/15/2006, 10:03 AM

No one failed to mention that the FLOW IN THE SUMP SHOULD ONLY BE AROUND 3-5 TIMES AMOUNT OF THE DISPLAY TANK?

Seeing that your display is a 75g, that means the min. and most you should have running from the sump to the tank would be 225-375GPH. If you are getting crazy amounts of microbubbles, that is because the water is going too quick in your sump and it has NO TIME to dispurse. Look into that and keep us informed. Don't be a quitter.

arozz7 · 06/15/2006, 10:09 AM

I tried reducing the return pump down some and that seems to have worked. No more microbubbles. It appears I was having too much flow through the sump. Just wanted to let everyone know that it worked for me.....Thanks!!!!

Beenalongtime79 · 06/15/2006, 10:14 AM

Pictures are worth a thousand words. There is always a reason, bubbles don't magically appear out of nowhere so there is always a physical explanation for them.

Peace,
John H.

crumbletop · 06/15/2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by derick75
the mag7 was pushing about 500gph and still bubbles i dont want to go any lower then that

Why not go lower than a mag 7? What eheim did you try? Why not try an eheim 1250? That's what I use on my 90.

I know you've done a lot of troubleshooting -- have you looked at the diameter of the durso pipe and the # of bends and lengths of pipe the water must drain through? If you are sucking water too fast through the durso (velocity-wise, not necessarily gph-wise) then you can get a "near siphon" which IME pulls a LOT of microbubbles that are difficult to get rid of before the water hits the return pump. I think the 75 megaflow has a 1" drain line. You could go 1.5" on the pipe and reduce to 1" at the bulkhead, and then run 1" the rest of the way to the sump with a minimum of bends. Those would be the two things I would try -- smaller pump, and reducing friction on the drain.

Jack

derick75 · 06/15/2006, 10:48 AM

Thank you all for you suggestions it has motivated me alot. So many questions i will try to answer them all. First I hate the sump i have. For all who are not familar with the Tidepool2 sump i will explain a little. The drawbacks are many 1st it has 3 drawers which contain your mechanical or chemical filtration which is fine but my coralife 125 skimmer is located in the sump, the reason being is that the control knob leaks, i have yet to call for a fix on that. So when i have to change the media i have to remove the skimmer to pull out the drawers. The reason i bought the tidepool is because i was told the large bio wheel is very helpfull in breaking down waste. My pump is a posidon ps1 which is a great pump 700gph at 3ft head. it is outside the sump. Now a few of you guys have said the sump is to small because when the skimmer is off micro bubbles are still entering the tank i never thought of that. I can not see any visual microbubbles in the sump whith the baffles i have in there . the tidepool does do a good job in keeping the flow to a min because after going through 3 media baskets and hiting the large biowheel and then going over a buit in baffle the flow entering the sump is very calm but ther may be bubbles i just cant see. Someone also mentioned a 20 gallon tank for a sump. Well i have a 20 gallon High tank brand new siting here but i have no idea how to put the baffles in it. and then i would have to use the mag 7 because there is no bulkhead. which if it fixes the problem i have no problem with. perhaps i should try that. Now the link at the bottom is some photos of the sump keep in mind it is a mess right now because i have moved everything in and out I use UV sterilizer about 6hrs during the day that is what you see on top of the sump again its a mess but here you go....again thank you to alltank sump

asmujica · 06/15/2006, 10:53 AM

Well the sump is definetly too small for that amount of flow. The skimmer is also to near to the intake to the return pump. Try using a flaslight on the sump and I'll bet you have bubbles in there.

Go to www.melevsreef.com , he has information on how to build your own sump. There is also a recomended sump size calculator here on RCs homepage that should help you out.

Beenalongtime79 · 06/15/2006, 11:02 AM

I agree. Since your sump is not transparent and you are actually having to look from the top. You'd need a pretty good light with low glare to really see if any bubbles are making their way to the pump...

Once again, cavitation only really occurs if your inlet pipe is not sized correctly for your pump and it rarely occurs.

Peace,
John H.

h20cooled · 06/15/2006, 11:20 AM

I know this sounds really simple but have you tried putting an elbow on the bulkhead your external pump draws from? The idea being that it forces the pump to draw water from the lowest point in your sump, bubbles float to the top so the water at the water should be bubble free.

derick75 · 06/15/2006, 11:29 AM

yes i have tried the elbow on the return did not work. If my problem is the sump, then there must be many tidepool owners with the same problem, the manual says it can handle 600gph and when the mag 7 was hooked up it was pushing closer to 500gph.

06/14/2006, 10:22 PM	#1
derick75 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA Posts: 451	I am ready to give up and leave the hobby over this. I have posted 26 posts in 9 forums, i have talked to pros like bob fenner and had 3 reef "gurus" try to help all failed to identify this problem. Microbubbles yes im sure you have gone through this problem before i have lost 2 fish and several corals over this and about to call it quits. I have the 75 gallon mega flow tank , in combo with the tidepool 2 sump. i have microbubbles returing from the return line of the megaflow i have done every thing i can possibly think of to fix this with no luck. i have glued my entire return line and placed the loc line totaly under water no possible air in the return still have the bubbles. of course i used hose clamps on all connections..i have removed all ball valves, tried 3 different pumps mag 7 posidon ehiem, tried 2 types of hoses, removed skimmer and all powerheads in the sump placed several baffels in the sump still no luck. No matter what i have tried the bubbles remain. My last attempt was to call AGA and talk to their customer support that was a joke they knew nothing, she did not even know what a "skimmer" was. They put me in contact with a guy in penn who was supose to troubleshoot these types of problems after an hour on the phone, 16 different pictures, and 3 videos of the problem, he had me take my return line straight from the pump into the tank skipping the overflow so i took a 8 foot 3/4 " hose went from the pump and stuck it into the tank..microbubbles,, i tried that with the mag 7 ehiem and posiedon he concluded that i have too much oxygen or carbon gass or some sh#@ in my water..I love thid hobby but these bubbles have really taken its toll...

06/14/2006, 10:49 PM	#3
asmujica Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Monterrey, México Posts: 5,580	Have you tried replacing the hardware that came with the tank and installing a durso pipe? Have you tried running less water through the sump? How big is your sump? In this hobby you will end up troubleshooting something eventually, that is what most people enjoy about it. __________________ Where has the tank gone?

06/14/2006, 10:58 PM	#4
arozz7 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 41	I am presently having similar problems and will try the throttling of return line. I will post if that worked for me. __________________ "To Bare or Not to Bare? .... That is the question."

06/15/2006, 12:43 AM	#8
asmujica Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Monterrey, México Posts: 5,580	How big is the sump? __________________ Where has the tank gone?

06/15/2006, 04:29 AM	#11
jlcrandall Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Westfield, Mass Posts: 20	bubbles Like above, sump is too small. Where is the skimmer returning the water too? Many microbubble problems come from the return from the skimmer finding an easy/fast route to the return pump. The same container? If you could add another container and maybe fill it with LR rubble, sorta like melev did, it might break up alot of the bubbles. Maybe try the micron sock on the skimmer return. Just my .02. Elvis

06/14/2006, 10:48 PM	#2
Art_Vandelay Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Circleville, NY Posts: 243	I had that problem for days. . .maybe even a couple weeks now that I think about it. I was gonna give up too. I fixed my problem by throttling down the return pump. I found that when it's on "full blast" it causes cavitation. I found that there is a set point at which I can run my pump and that is it. . . no more. So my fix came from putting a ball valve in the return line about 6 inches up from the return pump. The pump runs at about 65%. A micron sock works miracles as well. REALLY WELL. (100 micron size) I also have a refugium in line in which the macroaglae acts like a filter also and catches more bubbles. I hope some of this works or at least gives you inspiration to hang in there. You could also put a ball valve on the drain lines from the overflow to slow them down as well. This takes careful adjustment as you do not want to overflow your tank. All these things seemed to work for me. Good Luck!

06/14/2006, 11:37 PM	#5
Mike.B Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 548	Does your overflow take bubbles into the sump?

06/14/2006, 11:45 PM	#6
Ereefic Moved On Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 5,821	MY return pump intake goes up and over the side of the sump. I recently had bubbles being returned to the tank and couldn't figure out why. I put a filter sock over the intake tube so the pump had to pull the water threw the sock, and no more microbubbles.

06/15/2006, 12:38 AM	#7
derick75 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA Posts: 451	well i dont mind trouble shooting at all but i have been doing it for months..I have had great pleasure in customizing my tank as well. I also tried the micron sock and it did not work, the mag7 was pushing about 500gph and still bubbles i dont want to go any lower then that, the megaflow kit i bought is the durso type as well. I have absolutely no clue as to where the air is coming from. I am informed about pumps cavitating but like i said i have tried 3 different pumps and they all produce bubbles and it is not just a little here or there it is a constant stream of them, i dont know if others have pvc glued there megaflow return but it did not help for me..and remember this problem is so bad I pulled everything out of the sump shut off all powerheads waited a hour or so untill all bubbles in the tank have risen to the top, now my tank is bubble free no movement in the tank then turn on pump and here comes the bubbles.

06/15/2006, 01:41 AM	#9
Mike.B Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 548	Can I see some pictures of your sump, specifically where the overflow pipe enters your sump and the return pump area.

06/15/2006, 02:17 AM	#10
jake ballard Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: toyko, japan Posts: 76	i beleve your sump is to small! needs to be bigger

06/15/2006, 07:36 AM	#13
old salty Genius Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: The Island of Misfit Toys Posts: 3,131	Another thing you can look at is that if the pumps you are running are internal (under water), how deep is the water that they are in? If I don't put my Seio powerheads far enough under the water, they create a vortex strong enough to suck in air from 5 inches above. __________________ "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers." Thomas Jefferson Current Tank Info: Out of the marine aquarium hobby

06/15/2006, 09:26 AM	#14
TroyPierce Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Baltimore, Maryland Posts: 759	I had a similar problem and it turned out to be my bulkhead had a defect in it allowing just enough air into the return line. Good Luck with your quest. I know it's frustrating to have these kinds of problems with no obvious cause. __________________ "Everythings better, down where it's wetter" ><((((º> ><((((º> Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef, 2x175W MH and 2x40W actinic

06/15/2006, 09:45 AM	#15
Fiziksgeek Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Oxford, CT Posts: 1,565	Sorry to hear your so bummed out. These pesky problems can beat on ya for a while. Since you stated that the the micro bubble persit even when all of the power heads and skimmer is off, your are left with only a few possibilities: The bubbles are created in the sump and not given time to rise out before getting to the return pump. The pump is cavitating and creating bubbles. The pump is sucking in water from the surface because the water level is too low. There is a pin hole in the plumbing which sucks air in. Anyone else have items to add? lets brain storm a list, and go after this one item at a time. Also, where are you from? Is there a local reef club? Perhaps a member or two would be willing to come over and help trouble shoot with you. Sometimes its just needs a second set of eyes...

06/15/2006, 09:51 AM	#16
Paulairduck I LOVE FREE FRAGS!!! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Chino Hills Posts: 2,909	get a new sump There is no way it is the durso, if it puts air into the sump, all of them do put some type of bubble's in the sump. I would remove the biowheel from the sumps and just run a hose to the bottom of the sump. Put some live rock in the sump for your filtration and keep the flow between 400-600 gph, no more. Almost every problem that I have seen with microbubbles is from too much flow going through the sump. Or you can go down to your local fish store and get yourselve a 20 gallon tank and a tube of aquarium grade silicon, then go to home depot and get the 3 pieces of glass for your bubble baffle. The glass they sell there fits perfect no cutting. I just made one and it cost me around fifty dollars for everything and I have been able to run upwards of 800 gph through the sump and no return bubble problems. If you go to the gallery and look under sumps, there are many pictures of different sumps setups that will work for you.

06/15/2006, 10:03 AM	#17
ek9vboi Registered Member. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: South FL Posts: 3,027	No one failed to mention that the FLOW IN THE SUMP SHOULD ONLY BE AROUND 3-5 TIMES AMOUNT OF THE DISPLAY TANK? Seeing that your display is a 75g, that means the min. and most you should have running from the sump to the tank would be 225-375GPH. If you are getting crazy amounts of microbubbles, that is because the water is going too quick in your sump and it has NO TIME to dispurse. Look into that and keep us informed. Don't be a quitter.

06/15/2006, 10:09 AM	#18
arozz7 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 41	I tried reducing the return pump down some and that seems to have worked. No more microbubbles. It appears I was having too much flow through the sump. Just wanted to let everyone know that it worked for me.....Thanks!!!! __________________ "To Bare or Not to Bare? .... That is the question."

06/15/2006, 10:14 AM	#19
Beenalongtime79 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,437	Pictures are worth a thousand words. There is always a reason, bubbles don't magically appear out of nowhere so there is always a physical explanation for them. Peace, John H.

06/15/2006, 10:48 AM	#21
derick75 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA Posts: 451	Thank you all for you suggestions it has motivated me alot. So many questions i will try to answer them all. First I hate the sump i have. For all who are not familar with the Tidepool2 sump i will explain a little. The drawbacks are many 1st it has 3 drawers which contain your mechanical or chemical filtration which is fine but my coralife 125 skimmer is located in the sump, the reason being is that the control knob leaks, i have yet to call for a fix on that. So when i have to change the media i have to remove the skimmer to pull out the drawers. The reason i bought the tidepool is because i was told the large bio wheel is very helpfull in breaking down waste. My pump is a posidon ps1 which is a great pump 700gph at 3ft head. it is outside the sump. Now a few of you guys have said the sump is to small because when the skimmer is off micro bubbles are still entering the tank i never thought of that. I can not see any visual microbubbles in the sump whith the baffles i have in there . the tidepool does do a good job in keeping the flow to a min because after going through 3 media baskets and hiting the large biowheel and then going over a buit in baffle the flow entering the sump is very calm but ther may be bubbles i just cant see. Someone also mentioned a 20 gallon tank for a sump. Well i have a 20 gallon High tank brand new siting here but i have no idea how to put the baffles in it. and then i would have to use the mag 7 because there is no bulkhead. which if it fixes the problem i have no problem with. perhaps i should try that. Now the link at the bottom is some photos of the sump keep in mind it is a mess right now because i have moved everything in and out I use UV sterilizer about 6hrs during the day that is what you see on top of the sump again its a mess but here you go....again thank you to alltank sump

06/15/2006, 10:53 AM	#22
asmujica Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Monterrey, México Posts: 5,580	Well the sump is definetly too small for that amount of flow. The skimmer is also to near to the intake to the return pump. Try using a flaslight on the sump and I'll bet you have bubbles in there. Go to www.melevsreef.com , he has information on how to build your own sump. There is also a recomended sump size calculator here on RCs homepage that should help you out. __________________ Where has the tank gone?

06/15/2006, 11:02 AM	#23
Beenalongtime79 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 4,437	I agree. Since your sump is not transparent and you are actually having to look from the top. You'd need a pretty good light with low glare to really see if any bubbles are making their way to the pump... Once again, cavitation only really occurs if your inlet pipe is not sized correctly for your pump and it rarely occurs. Peace, John H.

06/15/2006, 11:20 AM	#24
h20cooled Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Milwaukie, OR Posts: 1,016	I know this sounds really simple but have you tried putting an elbow on the bulkhead your external pump draws from? The idea being that it forces the pump to draw water from the lowest point in your sump, bubbles float to the top so the water at the water should be bubble free.

06/15/2006, 11:29 AM	#25
derick75 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: USA Posts: 451	yes i have tried the elbow on the return did not work. If my problem is the sump, then there must be many tidepool owners with the same problem, the manual says it can handle 600gph and when the mag 7 was hooked up it was pushing closer to 500gph.