? on the whole lr per # thing..

stewie24 · 06/30/2006, 06:23 AM

Here's an interesting question I've thought about...
The common method for using LR in tanks is roughly anywhere from .75 to 1.5 pounds per gallon of water....
So here's a scenario:
Assuming I have a 100 gallon tank with exactly 100 lbs of LR.. That'd be right on the money..
So I decide to add a sump/fuge to my system..
I add a 75 gallon tank to the system. Now technically if both tanks were empty, i'd have 175 gallon total volume. Or by measuring standards, I should use at least 132 lbs of LR. (that'd be .75 pounds/gallon)
I decide to add a fuge with no LR rubble and my sump portion would hosue the heater, skimmer, and return pump...
So in theory, wouldn't adding the 75 gallon tank be a bad thing because I've now added approx 3/4 more water volume to my system but no more live rock?
So this would lead me to conclude the following:
Even tho the fuge added would help reduce nitrates/etc (assuming I ran cheato), I'd still only have .57 pounds or lr per gallon - which goes against the rule of having at least .75 to 1.5 pounds per gallon for the proper filtration..
So wouldn't it be safe to assume no one really needs .75 - 1.5 #/gallon..
Some member on here runs a 1,100 gallon fuge thats hooked to his ~400ish gallon system. Even if he had 400 lbs of lr in his system, his water volume would be 1,500 gallons and that'd be .26 pounds per gallon..
Someone care to explain how they figure .75 to 1.5 pounds per gallon when obviously you can clearly get away with faaaaar less??

horkn · 06/30/2006, 06:42 AM

you have put a lot of thought into it, but i can say its not that complicated.

you may have added more volume with the sump and fuge, but the bioload has not gone up- unless you cram more fish in the tank too.
. i know a local reefer that has a 400g display, and probably has near 600g totoal in his system, but he doesnt have anywhere near 600lbs of LR.

I have supposedly 50 pounds of LR in my 35g, and its a ton of rock. too much

clsanchez77 · 06/30/2006, 06:46 AM

You are reading way to far into this. All of the 'X' per gallon...rules of thumb (light, flow, rock, sand...) are only guidlines and subject to personal preference. You can adjust these numbers however you feel and if you need to tell yourself a sump allows for this increase and a refug allows for that increase and a nun serving as a personal bartender requires this decrease...then more power to you.

Afterall, would you decrease your volume of water by what is displaced by the rock and sand? if you use more or less sand, do you adjust your rock? Also what about your corals; if you have stony corals, as they grow and add pounds, do you remove rock as there skeletons provide the same benifit as live rock?

Of course not, but you could...

I have seen some reef tank with as little as 0.25 lbs/gal and do just fine. It is all in what you want. Anthony Calfo is recommending people use far less rock than what is popular; his stance is the open space allows for much more water flow and gives space for the corals to grow and fill the tank in more naturally.

The important thing is to maintain is water flow thru and around the rocks.

By the way, I have 1.39lbs of rock per gallon of water. It is 50 pounds (the 0.56lbs/gal rule) of dense aquaculture rock and 75 (the 0.83lbs/gal rule) pounds of ancient lettuce coral rock. I estimated that the volume of water displaced by the rock is roughly the same as the volume of water added by the sump, so I can safely assume the volume of water is still 90 gallons for my 90 gallon tanks. I do not run a fuge, but do run a skimmer and carbon 24/7. I got rid of my nun bartender so I allowed my self to add 8 more pounds of aquacultured rock, but smashed into rubble as a penalty of not having a fuge.

Chris

JeRmZ · 06/30/2006, 06:58 AM

I would assume it's just a generalization, but the ideal amount is 1-2lbs per gallon and I think that would be Main display gallons.

I have a 29gallon with believe it or not around 80lbs. of LR in the main and then in my HOB filter another 2-3lbs of rubble.

I also think that when you get up to 1000's of gallons the rule kind of diminishes a little because of the amount of water volume you have. Remember the more volume the less fluctuations you will have. Also obviously if your running a 400-500gal sump you have a fair amount of filtration to begin with and at that point the LR becomes more for visual apearance than filtration assistance.

JeRmZ · 06/30/2006, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by clsanchez77
and a nun serving as a personal bartender requires this decrease...then more power to you.

Chris

Ha ... can you please give me the link for one of these Nun Bartenders ... I would LOVE to get my hands on one of those!

RichConley · 06/30/2006, 07:22 AM

Jermz, I've got abou 75lbs of LR in my 58, adn whne it gets moved this week, a LOT of that rock is coming out. Its just too much. So I think 1-2lbs is way much.

clsanchez77 · 06/30/2006, 07:45 AM

Tried to find one the internet and found this joke instead...

Quote:

A nun, badly needing to use to the restroom, walked into a local Hooters. The place was hopping with music and loud conversation. However, every once in a while the lights would turn off.

Each time the lights would go out, the place would erupt into cheer. However, when the revelers saw the nun, the room went dead silent.

She walked up to the bartender, and asked, "May I please use the restroom?" The bartender replied, "OK, but I should warn you that there is a statue of a naked man in there wearing only a fig leaf."
"Well, in that case I'll just look the other way," said the nun.

So, the bartender showed the nun to the back of the restaurant, and she preceded to the restroom. After a few minutes, she came back out, and the whole place stopped just long enough to give the nun a loud round of applause.

She went to the bartender and said, "Sir, I don't understand. Why did they applaud for me just because I went to the restroom?"

"Well, now they know you're one of us," said the bartender, "Would you like a drink?" "But, I still don't understand," said the puzzled nun.

"You see," laughed the bartender, "every time the fig leaf on the statue is lifted up, the lights go out... Now, how about that drink?"

Sorry to hijack the thread but thoght it was funny. I will leave now.

clsanchez77 · 06/30/2006, 07:46 AM

Quote:

So I think 1-2lbs is way much

Not if you go with aquacultured rock...again why you have to be cautous with rules of thumb.

stewie24 · 06/30/2006, 07:48 AM

Glad to hear the discussion folks.
Good points are being made.
I never gave it a thought about the whole bioload thing.
Brings up another question:
Someone can have a 55 gallon tank w/ only 10 lbs of rock in there and keep say one perc, and the bioload would be fine.
Looks like i'm going to be experimenting for a little bit.
I have a 55 gallon display and a 55 gallon sump/fuge (only has about 20-25 gallons of water in it). In that tank there's approx 175 lbs of LR in it.. waaaaaaaaaay too much if you ask me, but I got a real deal on the rocks, so I just threw em all in the tank.
I"ll start taking alot of rock (slowly over weeks) out of the display and sump and see how the bioload goes..
My 10 display w/ 20long sump/fuge also has about 30 lbs total in the system.
I;d like to get away with having the 10 lbs in the 10 display and just keeping cheato in the 20 long and getting rid of the other rocks.. I think that'd be too litte rock, IMO, but we'll see how it goes.. I"ll have to post some results in the following weeks...
Stewie

King-Kong · 06/30/2006, 09:33 AM

Because like most things in this hobby, it is said once and repeated over and over again, without anyone ever bending or changing, and seeing what the result is.

There are some incredible tanks out there (packed with fish and thriving sps COLONIES) with comically small amounts of live rock.

I think we are ALL buying too much live rock.

Our tanks are turning into rock gardens with tiny speckles of corals here or there.

Crusty Old Shellback · 06/30/2006, 09:45 AM

I have to agree. I'm moving my 400 soon and will only be putting what rock I need to make it look good. The benificial bacteria that we want that grows on the rocks also grows on everything else in the tank. Sand, Glass, Acrylic, heaters, powerheads, everything. The bacteria will grow to establilsh a equilibrium between them and the waste produced from the inhamitants in the aquarium. The more pourus rock you use, the more room for the bacteria to grow.

06/30/2006, 06:23 AM	#1
stewie24 Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Northwestern PA Posts: 824	? on the whole lr per # thing.. Here's an interesting question I've thought about... The common method for using LR in tanks is roughly anywhere from .75 to 1.5 pounds per gallon of water.... So here's a scenario: Assuming I have a 100 gallon tank with exactly 100 lbs of LR.. That'd be right on the money.. So I decide to add a sump/fuge to my system.. I add a 75 gallon tank to the system. Now technically if both tanks were empty, i'd have 175 gallon total volume. Or by measuring standards, I should use at least 132 lbs of LR. (that'd be .75 pounds/gallon) I decide to add a fuge with no LR rubble and my sump portion would hosue the heater, skimmer, and return pump... So in theory, wouldn't adding the 75 gallon tank be a bad thing because I've now added approx 3/4 more water volume to my system but no more live rock? So this would lead me to conclude the following: Even tho the fuge added would help reduce nitrates/etc (assuming I ran cheato), I'd still only have .57 pounds or lr per gallon - which goes against the rule of having at least .75 to 1.5 pounds per gallon for the proper filtration.. So wouldn't it be safe to assume no one really needs .75 - 1.5 #/gallon.. Some member on here runs a 1,100 gallon fuge thats hooked to his ~400ish gallon system. Even if he had 400 lbs of lr in his system, his water volume would be 1,500 gallons and that'd be .26 pounds per gallon.. Someone care to explain how they figure .75 to 1.5 pounds per gallon when obviously you can clearly get away with faaaaar less??

06/30/2006, 06:42 AM	#2
horkn Registered Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: milwaukee wisconsin Posts: 4,125	you have put a lot of thought into it, but i can say its not that complicated. you may have added more volume with the sump and fuge, but the bioload has not gone up- unless you cram more fish in the tank too. . i know a local reefer that has a 400g display, and probably has near 600g totoal in his system, but he doesnt have anywhere near 600lbs of LR. I have supposedly 50 pounds of LR in my 35g, and its a ton of rock. too much __________________ people write stupid things in this space Current Tank Info: 200g DIY wood reef, 2x 250w SE 10k MH 2x80 t5ho, 75g sump, Geo Ca RX, ASD 6" recirc skimmer

06/30/2006, 06:58 AM	#4
JeRmZ Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Tha Hill, FL. Posts: 281	I would assume it's just a generalization, but the ideal amount is 1-2lbs per gallon and I think that would be Main display gallons. I have a 29gallon with believe it or not around 80lbs. of LR in the main and then in my HOB filter another 2-3lbs of rubble. I also think that when you get up to 1000's of gallons the rule kind of diminishes a little because of the amount of water volume you have. Remember the more volume the less fluctuations you will have. Also obviously if your running a 400-500gal sump you have a fair amount of filtration to begin with and at that point the LR becomes more for visual apearance than filtration assistance. __________________ Why does deoderant smell so good, but taste so bad? Current Tank Info: 29gal Reef

06/30/2006, 07:22 AM	#6
RichConley Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bostonian in Chicago going to DC Posts: 9,908	Jermz, I've got abou 75lbs of LR in my 58, adn whne it gets moved this week, a LOT of that rock is coming out. Its just too much. So I think 1-2lbs is way much. __________________ NO TANKS!!!

06/30/2006, 09:45 AM	#11
Crusty Old Shellback MASVC OG Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Home of the FREE, Thanks to the BRAVE! Posts: 5,089	I have to agree. I'm moving my 400 soon and will only be putting what rock I need to make it look good. The benificial bacteria that we want that grows on the rocks also grows on everything else in the tank. Sand, Glass, Acrylic, heaters, powerheads, everything. The bacteria will grow to establilsh a equilibrium between them and the waste produced from the inhamitants in the aquarium. The more pourus rock you use, the more room for the bacteria to grow. __________________ Have you THANKED a Veteran lately for the freedoms you take for granted each day? Best quote ever! "This is a hobby for God sakes and so many people get so uptite. A "hobby" so it should be fun and not a cause to worry or go broke." Paul B Current Tank Info: Tankless for a while. RIP my 8+ yr old pair of Naso tangs, 4 + yr old Moorish Idol

06/30/2006, 06:46 AM	#3
clsanchez77 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Metairie, La Posts: 822	You are reading way to far into this. All of the 'X' per gallon...rules of thumb (light, flow, rock, sand...) are only guidlines and subject to personal preference. You can adjust these numbers however you feel and if you need to tell yourself a sump allows for this increase and a refug allows for that increase and a nun serving as a personal bartender requires this decrease...then more power to you. Afterall, would you decrease your volume of water by what is displaced by the rock and sand? if you use more or less sand, do you adjust your rock? Also what about your corals; if you have stony corals, as they grow and add pounds, do you remove rock as there skeletons provide the same benifit as live rock? Of course not, but you could... I have seen some reef tank with as little as 0.25 lbs/gal and do just fine. It is all in what you want. Anthony Calfo is recommending people use far less rock than what is popular; his stance is the open space allows for much more water flow and gives space for the corals to grow and fill the tank in more naturally. The important thing is to maintain is water flow thru and around the rocks. By the way, I have 1.39lbs of rock per gallon of water. It is 50 pounds (the 0.56lbs/gal rule) of dense aquaculture rock and 75 (the 0.83lbs/gal rule) pounds of ancient lettuce coral rock. I estimated that the volume of water displaced by the rock is roughly the same as the volume of water added by the sump, so I can safely assume the volume of water is still 90 gallons for my 90 gallon tanks. I do not run a fuge, but do run a skimmer and carbon 24/7. I got rid of my nun bartender so I allowed my self to add 8 more pounds of aquacultured rock, but smashed into rubble as a penalty of not having a fuge. Chris

06/30/2006, 07:48 AM	#9
stewie24 Registered Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Northwestern PA Posts: 824	Glad to hear the discussion folks. Good points are being made. I never gave it a thought about the whole bioload thing. Brings up another question: Someone can have a 55 gallon tank w/ only 10 lbs of rock in there and keep say one perc, and the bioload would be fine. Looks like i'm going to be experimenting for a little bit. I have a 55 gallon display and a 55 gallon sump/fuge (only has about 20-25 gallons of water in it). In that tank there's approx 175 lbs of LR in it.. waaaaaaaaaay too much if you ask me, but I got a real deal on the rocks, so I just threw em all in the tank. I"ll start taking alot of rock (slowly over weeks) out of the display and sump and see how the bioload goes.. My 10 display w/ 20long sump/fuge also has about 30 lbs total in the system. I;d like to get away with having the 10 lbs in the 10 display and just keeping cheato in the 20 long and getting rid of the other rocks.. I think that'd be too litte rock, IMO, but we'll see how it goes.. I"ll have to post some results in the following weeks... Stewie

06/30/2006, 09:33 AM	#10
King-Kong Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 2,346	Because like most things in this hobby, it is said once and repeated over and over again, without anyone ever bending or changing, and seeing what the result is. There are some incredible tanks out there (packed with fish and thriving sps COLONIES) with comically small amounts of live rock. I think we are ALL buying too much live rock. Our tanks are turning into rock gardens with tiny speckles of corals here or there.