Stability?

scarpenter · 09/15/2006, 06:20 PM

I am trying this product called Stabilty. Anyone else used it?

scarpenter · 09/15/2006, 06:53 PM

come on help me out here. My ammonia is at 1.0 or higher but the fish seem fine now that I have dosed with Stability. The question is does this product let it cycle, but at the same time leaving the fish unharmed. The tank is not entirely new, it has been up for a little over a month, and has previously cycled. However, when I added 3 very small regal tangs yesterday. It started going down hill.

sir_dudeguy · 09/15/2006, 08:10 PM

whoa whoa....you added 3 regal tangs in one tank at a time????? not good. Thats gonna be why your amonia kicked up. You have to space it out. Get one fish at a time and wait at least 3-4 weeks in between that time and getting another one. That will allow the bacteria time to bounce back. What you did was overload the bacteria and there's not enough to support whats there now, so theres amonia.

I have no clue about the stability stuff, but take back 2 of those fish.

scarpenter · 09/15/2006, 08:18 PM

Here is what gets me.....you guys say one fish at a time.....but say all 30 or so books that I read says always add certain species in groups of 2 ,3 or more depending on the species.....otherwise you can only have one because they will fight...

So which is it? We have added all of our other fish in groups and things have been fine. The regals aren't even the size of a quarter yet >

ChunksInClemson · 09/15/2006, 08:22 PM

scarpenter....just to help your definition of entirely new, 1 month is entirely new.

sir_dudeguy · 09/15/2006, 08:38 PM

books can be missleading quite often. I've got a book that says a yellow tang will fluorish in a 30 gallon tank? i think not... but ya..just so you know, not all books will be right. And i'm not saying everyone here is right every time either, but who's to say that just because you add 3 of them at once they're not gonna fight later?

highseraphim · 09/15/2006, 08:45 PM

I have just set up a salt water aquarium and have done lots of reading and research. I could write a bokk if I wanted to. I have only been into this hobby for 2 months! Would a new person buy my book thinking it is correct? Probably! What do they know?

Listen to the true enthusiasts. This site is awsome, forget the books they will tell you all the same from commen knowledge and lttle from experience.

sir_dudeguy · 09/15/2006, 08:57 PM

Quote:

I have just set up a salt water aquarium and have done lots of reading and research. I could write a bokk if I wanted to

exactly. anybody could write a book if they so pleased. I'm almost possitive that the guy that wrote a book i have has never had a tank lol. no sense at all.

blazin · 09/15/2006, 09:06 PM

it probably means add species in 2 or 3 at a time in an ESTABLISHED tank. A month old tank is certainly not.

bosborn1 · 09/15/2006, 09:19 PM

I highly doubt that the small Regals directly caused an nh3 or a nh4 spike. However they might have caused a disruption in your VERY young Nitrobacter cycle. IME I don't trust the so called mircle products that bind and detoxicify nh3/nh4. Ammonia is toxic.....Plain and simple. I take it your 3 Regals are in the 110? While Hippos will get along I dont think that anything other than a 6 foot tank would be proper. In just 2 years my 2 inch hippo became a 8 inch monster that tears the nori up. Hippos can become quite aggressive..especially in groups. My hippo keeps both an Acanthurus and a Zebrasoma in check. Both of those should be more aggressive.....Not the case. I have noticed that the market has recently been flooded with these small hippos. From the amount that I have seen these little guys have quite an appetite. The food that is required could also be having an adverse effect.

Scott

kass03 · 09/15/2006, 11:46 PM

Yes they MIGHT get along if added in 3 's instead of 2 that part is correct.
Hippos do need alot of room. I'm not sure how long a 110 is but if it's 4 ft it is'nt big enough for 3 of them when they grow.

When a tank is new it is'nt stabalized. The bacteria just grew enough to support the tank without fish and whenever you add something new the bacteria have to catch up to the load. That's why especially when newly set up it's best to add only 1 hardier fish and see how it goes first. Being the bacteria just grew enough to support the tank anything can throw it off and have a mini cycle which is what you seem to be having.
As the tank ages it gets more stable.
Tangs are ich magnets anyway and not the best fish to start out with as they are very sensative.

I don't know about the product either but the tank won't cycle and have the fish unaffected. Some fish can handle ammonia and live but alot of them won't make it. Tangs get stressed very easily and might live from the ammonia but will prolly get ich if they do.

What is the ammonia after you used the stability? I'm guessing maybe it's a product something like amquel plus that can bring ammonia down some? Or if it's a bacteria product they still have to eat the ammonia which takes time.

kass

TekCat · 09/15/2006, 11:55 PM

I agree with all previous advise in regard to young bio-system that you have. It is quite often that one rushes in and the result is "new tank syndrome". Slow down!

Ok, to ease your pain a bit, I've used product called "Purigen" made by Seachem. What it is - some kind of resin that absorbs ammonia. Granted, that first and foremost you need a mature tank, but in an emergency like this I see nothing wrong in helping mother nature a bit.

good luck

scarpenter · 09/16/2006, 10:18 AM

This tank is only a month old but we started out with a smaller 20 gallon tank three months ago with 3 clowns 2 dasmsels and 2 chromis. When we finished the 110 we transferred them over with our live rock and some substrate. With lr and live sand it cycled about a month ago we have added fish in pairs( cardinals, chromis and cleaner shrimp).......waiting a week or so and then add another something small. Our LFS and several other enthusiasts as well told us that we HAD to add some of the fish in pairs...cardinals, chromis, damsels, etc. They would only sell us the regals in 3's. Since they aren't the hardiest fish we should have a reaaly good chance that one of them would make it. We are planning to put up a much larger tank around Christmas so they will eventually be split up some. that is why we weren't concerned about how big they would get.

sir_dudeguy · 09/16/2006, 10:35 AM

crap..posted before i was finished

sir_dudeguy · 09/16/2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

With lr and live sand it cycled about a month ago

i'm hoping you have more than just the rock that you've got in that 20? because in a 20g tank, whats the max amount of rock you can keep? its really not that much, MAYBE 45-50? and then you'd have no room left...But 20-35 is a more reasonable number to have had in the 20.

So even if you used EVERYTHING from the 20...you still dont have enough to cycle/filter your 110 constantly. Yes, you've got enough for the fish that were originaly with that rock in the 20, but once you start adding more, theres not enough rock to filter the tank.

As for the lfs only selling them in 3's...i've never heard of any lfs doing that. As long as they get their money, they couldnt really give a crap what happens to the fish. Just look at all the people that sell blue tangs to people w/10g tanks, or sell manderins to people who've never had another fish in their tank and set their tank up only 4 months ago.

But wait...you got 3 of them in the hopes that ONE would survive?

But anyways, i seriously hope you used more than just the rock from the 20. Even if you used all base rock for the rest, you wont have had enough bacteria at this point to filter your tank.

scarpenter · 09/16/2006, 01:12 PM

sir dude, we have 100 lbs. of cured live rock in the 110 display and 10 lbs in the 20 gal sump.

serpentman · 09/16/2006, 01:24 PM

I certainly mean no disrespect scarpenter but the fact that your ammonia is even registering indicates that the tank, by definition, has not completed its cycle. Every addition will cause a small spike in ammonia levels. However, in this case, if the fish are as small as you say, I doubt they are the cause (although they are not helping things). Rather than add any artificial components, I would let your LR catch up with the bioload. In the meantime, I would be very aggressive on the PWC's to keep the ammonia below lethal levels.

I would not add any more fish until your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have stabilized at acceptable levels:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: <10

scarpenter · 09/16/2006, 01:39 PM

I just meant that we transferred from the existing tank and added a bunch more and a deep sand bed with live sand.

I know very few people that have been successful the first time with a regal tang. So yes we hoped that at least one would make it...if more than one great...we want another large tank around Christmas. So we would take the other(s) out and place them in another tank . It would be nice to have a large one to go in a new tank.

sir_dudeguy · 09/16/2006, 01:46 PM

adding a deep live sand bed will also cause the spikes. Even if it came from a fully established, 50 year old tank...no matter what when you stir up that sand its gonna cause some spikes. So thats probably not helping either. like serpent said...dont do anything besides keep water changes going. Dont add anything else untill you get the levels he said.

bertoni · 09/16/2006, 02:01 PM

There are products like Amquel Plus that bind to ammonia and make it more toxic. For short-term use, they're fine. Can you provide a link to the product that you're using?

I agree that the tank seems unready for fish.

scarpenter · 09/16/2006, 03:10 PM

the product I am using is Stability by Seachem

http://www.seachem.com/products/prod...Stability.html

bertoni · 09/16/2006, 03:33 PM

It's possible that Stability might lessen the effects of the ammonia spike. Amquel Plus definitely will make ammonia non-toxic. I'd probably try some Amquel Plus to be safe. Fish can suffer long-term damage from ammonia exposure.

09/15/2006, 06:20 PM	#1
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	Stability? I am trying this product called Stabilty. Anyone else used it?

09/15/2006, 08:10 PM	#3
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	whoa whoa....you added 3 regal tangs in one tank at a time????? not good. Thats gonna be why your amonia kicked up. You have to space it out. Get one fish at a time and wait at least 3-4 weeks in between that time and getting another one. That will allow the bacteria time to bounce back. What you did was overload the bacteria and there's not enough to support whats there now, so theres amonia. I have no clue about the stability stuff, but take back 2 of those fish. __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!

09/15/2006, 08:22 PM	#5
ChunksInClemson Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Anderson, SC Posts: 824	scarpenter....just to help your definition of entirely new, 1 month is entirely new. __________________ Me to my brother-"Dude, you don't need to spend 75 dollars on a shirt! My brother to me-"Man, you just spent 100 dollars on some rocks" Me and him- "Laughs" Current Tank Info: 29g, a pair of true percs so far. Tank is newer!

09/15/2006, 08:38 PM	#6
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	books can be missleading quite often. I've got a book that says a yellow tang will fluorish in a 30 gallon tank? i think not... but ya..just so you know, not all books will be right. And i'm not saying everyone here is right every time either, but who's to say that just because you add 3 of them at once they're not gonna fight later? __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!

09/16/2006, 10:35 AM	#14
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	crap..posted before i was finished __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!! Last edited by sir_dudeguy; 09/16/2006 at 10:47 AM.

09/15/2006, 06:53 PM	#2
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	come on help me out here. My ammonia is at 1.0 or higher but the fish seem fine now that I have dosed with Stability. The question is does this product let it cycle, but at the same time leaving the fish unharmed. The tank is not entirely new, it has been up for a little over a month, and has previously cycled. However, when I added 3 very small regal tangs yesterday. It started going down hill.

09/15/2006, 08:18 PM	#4
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	Here is what gets me.....you guys say one fish at a time.....but say all 30 or so books that I read says always add certain species in groups of 2 ,3 or more depending on the species.....otherwise you can only have one because they will fight... So which is it? We have added all of our other fish in groups and things have been fine. The regals aren't even the size of a quarter yet >

09/15/2006, 08:45 PM	#7
highseraphim Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 27	I have just set up a salt water aquarium and have done lots of reading and research. I could write a bokk if I wanted to. I have only been into this hobby for 2 months! Would a new person buy my book thinking it is correct? Probably! What do they know? Listen to the true enthusiasts. This site is awsome, forget the books they will tell you all the same from commen knowledge and lttle from experience.

09/15/2006, 09:06 PM	#9
blazin Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Phila, PA Posts: 285	it probably means add species in 2 or 3 at a time in an ESTABLISHED tank. A month old tank is certainly not.

09/15/2006, 09:19 PM	#10
bosborn1 Registered Member. Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fairport, NY Posts: 2,579	I highly doubt that the small Regals directly caused an nh3 or a nh4 spike. However they might have caused a disruption in your VERY young Nitrobacter cycle. IME I don't trust the so called mircle products that bind and detoxicify nh3/nh4. Ammonia is toxic.....Plain and simple. I take it your 3 Regals are in the 110? While Hippos will get along I dont think that anything other than a 6 foot tank would be proper. In just 2 years my 2 inch hippo became a 8 inch monster that tears the nori up. Hippos can become quite aggressive..especially in groups. My hippo keeps both an Acanthurus and a Zebrasoma in check. Both of those should be more aggressive.....Not the case. I have noticed that the market has recently been flooded with these small hippos. From the amount that I have seen these little guys have quite an appetite. The food that is required could also be having an adverse effect. Scott

09/15/2006, 11:46 PM	#11
kass03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Kaukauna, Wi Posts: 2,937	Yes they MIGHT get along if added in 3 's instead of 2 that part is correct. Hippos do need alot of room. I'm not sure how long a 110 is but if it's 4 ft it is'nt big enough for 3 of them when they grow. When a tank is new it is'nt stabalized. The bacteria just grew enough to support the tank without fish and whenever you add something new the bacteria have to catch up to the load. That's why especially when newly set up it's best to add only 1 hardier fish and see how it goes first. Being the bacteria just grew enough to support the tank anything can throw it off and have a mini cycle which is what you seem to be having. As the tank ages it gets more stable. Tangs are ich magnets anyway and not the best fish to start out with as they are very sensative. I don't know about the product either but the tank won't cycle and have the fish unaffected. Some fish can handle ammonia and live but alot of them won't make it. Tangs get stressed very easily and might live from the ammonia but will prolly get ich if they do. What is the ammonia after you used the stability? I'm guessing maybe it's a product something like amquel plus that can bring ammonia down some? Or if it's a bacteria product they still have to eat the ammonia which takes time. kass

09/15/2006, 11:55 PM	#12
TekCat Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: MN Posts: 3,130	I agree with all previous advise in regard to young bio-system that you have. It is quite often that one rushes in and the result is "new tank syndrome". Slow down! Ok, to ease your pain a bit, I've used product called "Purigen" made by Seachem. What it is - some kind of resin that absorbs ammonia. Granted, that first and foremost you need a mature tank, but in an emergency like this I see nothing wrong in helping mother nature a bit. good luck

09/16/2006, 10:18 AM	#13
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	This tank is only a month old but we started out with a smaller 20 gallon tank three months ago with 3 clowns 2 dasmsels and 2 chromis. When we finished the 110 we transferred them over with our live rock and some substrate. With lr and live sand it cycled about a month ago we have added fish in pairs( cardinals, chromis and cleaner shrimp).......waiting a week or so and then add another something small. Our LFS and several other enthusiasts as well told us that we HAD to add some of the fish in pairs...cardinals, chromis, damsels, etc. They would only sell us the regals in 3's. Since they aren't the hardiest fish we should have a reaaly good chance that one of them would make it. We are planning to put up a much larger tank around Christmas so they will eventually be split up some. that is why we weren't concerned about how big they would get.

09/16/2006, 01:12 PM	#16
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	sir dude, we have 100 lbs. of cured live rock in the 110 display and 10 lbs in the 20 gal sump.

09/16/2006, 01:24 PM	#17
serpentman part time superhero Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Deep in the Heart of the Snowbelt (NE OHIO) Posts: 5,698	I certainly mean no disrespect scarpenter but the fact that your ammonia is even registering indicates that the tank, by definition, has not completed its cycle. Every addition will cause a small spike in ammonia levels. However, in this case, if the fish are as small as you say, I doubt they are the cause (although they are not helping things). Rather than add any artificial components, I would let your LR catch up with the bioload. In the meantime, I would be very aggressive on the PWC's to keep the ammonia below lethal levels. I would not add any more fish until your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have stabilized at acceptable levels: Ammonia: 0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: <10 __________________ BS in Marine Bio ('96), First SW tank in 1992. Current Tank(s) 300g SPS with 90g frag tank and 40 anemone tank - decommissioned 46g LPS/Softy Cube 300g FOWLR under construction - decommissioned

09/16/2006, 01:39 PM	#18
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	I just meant that we transferred from the existing tank and added a bunch more and a deep sand bed with live sand. I know very few people that have been successful the first time with a regal tang. So yes we hoped that at least one would make it...if more than one great...we want another large tank around Christmas. So we would take the other(s) out and place them in another tank . It would be nice to have a large one to go in a new tank.

09/16/2006, 01:46 PM	#19
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	adding a deep live sand bed will also cause the spikes. Even if it came from a fully established, 50 year old tank...no matter what when you stir up that sand its gonna cause some spikes. So thats probably not helping either. like serpent said...dont do anything besides keep water changes going. Dont add anything else untill you get the levels he said. __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!

09/16/2006, 02:01 PM	#20
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	There are products like Amquel Plus that bind to ammonia and make it more toxic. For short-term use, they're fine. Can you provide a link to the product that you're using? I agree that the tank seems unready for fish. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

09/16/2006, 03:10 PM	#21
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	the product I am using is Stability by Seachem http://www.seachem.com/products/prod...Stability.html

09/16/2006, 03:33 PM	#22
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	It's possible that Stability might lessen the effects of the ammonia spike. Amquel Plus definitely will make ammonia non-toxic. I'd probably try some Amquel Plus to be safe. Fish can suffer long-term damage from ammonia exposure. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni