get rid of bio balls or add refugium?

kelrn98 · 11/03/2006, 12:17 AM

I am in wk 3 of cycling my 110gal tank with 160# live rock. After much reading I am questioning my choice of using a wet/dry filter with bioballs. I plan to add corals in the future and fear low levels of nitrates. My plan was to use a shallow live sand bed, but I could do a DSB if need be, for I haven't added any sand thusfar. My other idea was either to make my wet/dry into a refugium or add a refugium to hang on back of tank. Should I get rid of the bioballs altogether? I just want to do this right from the beginning to prevent any devestating problems in the future.

reefnetworth · 11/03/2006, 12:32 AM

low levels of nitrate are what you do want. bio-balls will trap detritus and protiens that will create nitrate levels unsafe for corals. yes, you do want to remove (bio-balls) them. the wet/dry can be used as a refugium and sump at the same time with a DSB for nitrate removal. and a simple grow light for (chaetomorfia) plants. i dont encourage HOB's because of the aplied pressure on the tank walls and the constant visiblity of them.

reefnetworth · 11/03/2006, 12:32 AM

delete, sorry double click.

N8ster · 11/03/2006, 05:57 AM

I don't see anything in your comments about a skimmer. That would be the first recommendation--get a high-quality skimmer.

The skimmer will remove the nutrients from the system, rather than trap them where they will break down. The remaining nutrients will be broken down in the sand bed and refugium. Lots of debate on how deep you want the sand bed. I went for the "remote deep sand bed" option with the 90 gallon tank I am just setting up. I am about 3 weeks into my cycle as well, and already the corraline is spreading like crazy on the LR, and I see new critters every day.

kelrn98 · 11/03/2006, 01:38 PM

I have a berlin classic turbo skimmer in the sump.

hawaiianwargod · 11/04/2006, 02:52 AM

IMHO, I think its better to eliminate bioballs and start utilizing a fuge and grow macro algae. Bioballs will give you elevated nitrates and surely it will affect your corals. Some fish could tolerate higher trates but corals will not do too well.

kelrn98 · 11/04/2006, 04:50 AM

thanks for the info. i removed the bioballs today. have plenty of rubble from the live rock to place in sump. do i have to have a dsb for the sump in order to have macroalgae? I am not sure this is feasible with the skimmer and pumps already in the sump due to lack of space.

PoukieBear · 11/04/2006, 07:56 AM

No, you don't have to have a deep sand bed to keep macro algea.

I'm battling high nitrates at the moment too. After a year of having bio-balls, I just took them all out two nights ago.

and now I'm having the same problem as you! I'm looking at my sump thinking "with all the pumps and the skimmer and the heater and the live rock rubble, where the heck am I supposed to fit the algea in??

DgenR8 · 11/04/2006, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kelrn98
do i have to have a dsb for the sump in order to have macroalgae?

Not if you go with Chaetomorpha (AKA spaghetti macro). It doesn't set roots

If you really like the DSB idea, a number of folks have been running a DSB in a bucket, it's not for everyone, but it is an interesting idea....
DSB in a bucket

kelrn98 · 11/04/2006, 02:57 PM

What about lighting? How much lighting is needed to support growth of the live rock and macroalgae in the sump? I have read that some of the macroalgae are not photosynthetic. As well as to run the light in the sump opposite of the lights in the tank.

Thanks for everyones help so far, you guys are great!!

DgenR8 · 11/04/2006, 06:22 PM

I don't know of any macro algae that will grow without light. The good news is that you can light it really inexpensively. This light here is available at Home Depot, and works great for a refugium.
Lighting your 'fuge opposite your tank helps to maintain a more stable PH.

MimicTang · 11/04/2006, 07:11 PM

BioBalls are ONLY bad if you dont pre filter your water for debris. Put some sorta filter pad on top and your fine just remember to clean or replace the pad.

hubsocket · 11/04/2006, 07:14 PM

Please pardon the stupid noobie question, but do the fuges start to produce a smell like a swamp? I'm early in the plan stage, but there is no way the wife would put up with a swamp like smell from the fuge. Thx.

cilyjr · 11/04/2006, 07:28 PM

good chaeto lighting! you all should look at the tests melev did!
http://www.melevsreef.com/fuge_bulb.html

naterealbig · 11/04/2006, 09:08 PM

BioBalls are ONLY bad if you dont pre filter your water for debris.

Hmm - I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. Not just a little bit but completely. The bio balls trap detritus, yes, and if allowed to build up will in-fact ultimately increase nitrates. However, the bio balls will only harbor aerobic bacteria which will only break down wastes to the level of nitrates - which are harmful to inverts (and fish too by the way). The bacteria grown on live rock host anaerobic bacteria, which breaks waste down to the level of nitrogen, which harmlessly evaporates out of the tank. Lets say you have you have LR AND bio balls. Still not good, because the large amounts of aerobic bacteria on the balls are so effecient at converting wastes to nitrates, that they will do so before the anaerobic bacteria on the LR has a chance to break down the waste. Fact: My fish with a skimmer, LR, and Macro are healthier and happier than any of the fish I kept with wet/dry or canister filtration.

cilyjr · 11/04/2006, 11:45 PM

naterealbig i agree, that is what was explained to me a while back. i removed my bioballs. now my trates are less than 5ppm. as a word of caution to all who might read this and say i need to get rid of them now! if you have a well est. aquarium remove a few (10 or so) a day. as a loss in such a huge colony of bacteria could cause a spike in nitrites or worse ammonia.

kelrn98 · 11/05/2006, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cilyjr
good chaeto lighting! you all should look at the tests melev did!
http://www.melevsreef.com/fuge_bulb.html

?what does "chaeto" mean?

DgenR8 · 11/05/2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kelrn98
?what does "chaeto" mean?

Short for CHAETOMORPHA. AKA spaghetti macro

kelrn98 · 11/05/2006, 06:22 AM

oh........ have plans to use "spagetti macroalgae" just did not reconcognize that term. Thanks!!

DgenR8 · 11/05/2006, 07:22 AM

Took me a while at first, too.
I'll let you in on something else while we're here. It's pronounced like "kaytomorpha" and a good local source is BillsReef

kelrn98 · 11/05/2006, 07:52 AM

Thanks for the info and link to Bill's Reef! I really appreciate all the help I can get!

DgenR8 · 11/05/2006, 08:13 AM

That's why we're here

cilyjr · 11/05/2006, 08:25 AM

i saw a healthy drop in nitrates after adding the chaeto, i should say i have added about 3 times what the sell you in that 5ish dollar ball, and i did a 25% water change the day i added it. IMO water change brought them down chaeto kept it there. also it grows so fast you can harvest it. and i give it to my LFS so others can get some. sometimes you can work out a deal, say you don't have an RO/DI unit. trade it for free water!

11/03/2006, 12:17 AM	#1
kelrn98 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Biloxi, MS Posts: 856	get rid of bio balls or add refugium? I am in wk 3 of cycling my 110gal tank with 160# live rock. After much reading I am questioning my choice of using a wet/dry filter with bioballs. I plan to add corals in the future and fear low levels of nitrates. My plan was to use a shallow live sand bed, but I could do a DSB if need be, for I haven't added any sand thusfar. My other idea was either to make my wet/dry into a refugium or add a refugium to hang on back of tank. Should I get rid of the bioballs altogether? I just want to do this right from the beginning to prevent any devestating problems in the future.

11/03/2006, 12:32 AM	#2
reefnetworth Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 3,810	low levels of nitrate are what you do want. bio-balls will trap detritus and protiens that will create nitrate levels unsafe for corals. yes, you do want to remove (bio-balls) them. the wet/dry can be used as a refugium and sump at the same time with a DSB for nitrate removal. and a simple grow light for (chaetomorfia) plants. i dont encourage HOB's because of the aplied pressure on the tank walls and the constant visiblity of them. __________________ GIVE A MAN A FISH, YOU FEED HIM FOR A DAY. TEACH A MAN TO FISH, HE FEEDS HIMSELF FOR LIFE. (NEVER, underestimate another man's greed) Current Tank Info: SPS dominated barebottom display with BB sump since 2005, most consistant parameters in 19+ years of reefkeeping.

11/03/2006, 12:32 AM	#3
reefnetworth Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 3,810	delete, sorry double click. __________________ GIVE A MAN A FISH, YOU FEED HIM FOR A DAY. TEACH A MAN TO FISH, HE FEEDS HIMSELF FOR LIFE. (NEVER, underestimate another man's greed) Current Tank Info: SPS dominated barebottom display with BB sump since 2005, most consistant parameters in 19+ years of reefkeeping.

11/03/2006, 01:38 PM	#5
kelrn98 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Biloxi, MS Posts: 856	I have a berlin classic turbo skimmer in the sump. __________________ ~Kelly~ Current Tank Info: 96x24x30 -300g mixed reef: 75g sump, 35g fuge, 2x MP60, 4x Radion Pros, reef octopus X5000 skimmer, way too much LR and a few fish

11/04/2006, 02:52 AM	#6
hawaiianwargod Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: 11 54' N, 121 55' E Posts: 1,836	IMHO, I think its better to eliminate bioballs and start utilizing a fuge and grow macro algae. Bioballs will give you elevated nitrates and surely it will affect your corals. Some fish could tolerate higher trates but corals will not do too well. __________________ "To be a successful reefer, one must master the art of mimicry" ~Hawaiianwargod~ [E] levated [L] evel [O] f [S] weetness Current Tank Info: 210+ - "G" Elos 160XL [~]

11/03/2006, 05:57 AM	#4
N8ster Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 306	I don't see anything in your comments about a skimmer. That would be the first recommendation--get a high-quality skimmer. The skimmer will remove the nutrients from the system, rather than trap them where they will break down. The remaining nutrients will be broken down in the sand bed and refugium. Lots of debate on how deep you want the sand bed. I went for the "remote deep sand bed" option with the 90 gallon tank I am just setting up. I am about 3 weeks into my cycle as well, and already the corraline is spreading like crazy on the LR, and I see new critters every day.

11/04/2006, 04:50 AM	#7
kelrn98 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Biloxi, MS Posts: 856	thanks for the info. i removed the bioballs today. have plenty of rubble from the live rock to place in sump. do i have to have a dsb for the sump in order to have macroalgae? I am not sure this is feasible with the skimmer and pumps already in the sump due to lack of space. __________________ ~Kelly~ Current Tank Info: 96x24x30 -300g mixed reef: 75g sump, 35g fuge, 2x MP60, 4x Radion Pros, reef octopus X5000 skimmer, way too much LR and a few fish

11/04/2006, 07:56 AM	#8
PoukieBear Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ottawa Posts: 2,067	No, you don't have to have a deep sand bed to keep macro algea. I'm battling high nitrates at the moment too. After a year of having bio-balls, I just took them all out two nights ago. and now I'm having the same problem as you! I'm looking at my sump thinking "with all the pumps and the skimmer and the heater and the live rock rubble, where the heck am I supposed to fit the algea in?? __________________ Michelle ~Poukie, I'm proud of you for throwing up that cake. ~~Mikey~~ ~You're not drunk if you can lay on the floor without holding on. ~Save the earth, there are no princesses on Mars.

11/04/2006, 02:57 PM	#10
kelrn98 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Biloxi, MS Posts: 856	What about lighting? How much lighting is needed to support growth of the live rock and macroalgae in the sump? I have read that some of the macroalgae are not photosynthetic. As well as to run the light in the sump opposite of the lights in the tank. Thanks for everyones help so far, you guys are great!! __________________ ~Kelly~ Current Tank Info: 96x24x30 -300g mixed reef: 75g sump, 35g fuge, 2x MP60, 4x Radion Pros, reef octopus X5000 skimmer, way too much LR and a few fish

11/04/2006, 06:22 PM	#11
DgenR8 I'm an American and I remember Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 43,992	I don't know of any macro algae that will grow without light. The good news is that you can light it really inexpensively. This light here is available at Home Depot, and works great for a refugium. Lighting your 'fuge opposite your tank helps to maintain a more stable PH. __________________ “I wish there was a way to know that you were IN the good old days, before leaving them.” ~Andy Bernard Regional Manager, Scranton branch Dunder Mifflin Current Tank Info: Unknown slow drip, over 20 years damaged my house and heating system. No more tank.

11/04/2006, 07:11 PM	#12
MimicTang Moved On Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hartford CT Posts: 1,517	BioBalls are ONLY bad if you dont pre filter your water for debris. Put some sorta filter pad on top and your fine just remember to clean or replace the pad.

11/04/2006, 07:14 PM	#13
hubsocket Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: tx Posts: 17	Please pardon the stupid noobie question, but do the fuges start to produce a smell like a swamp? I'm early in the plan stage, but there is no way the wife would put up with a swamp like smell from the fuge. Thx.

11/04/2006, 07:28 PM	#14
cilyjr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,683	good chaeto lighting! you all should look at the tests melev did! http://www.melevsreef.com/fuge_bulb.html __________________ Cls Current Tank Info: 180 inwall, 75 sump, 20lfrag, 3x lumen max elite w/250w radium 20k, recirc modded asm g-3, aqua controller apex,2x rw-20, 350lbs LR

11/04/2006, 09:08 PM	#15
naterealbig Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 2,252	BioBalls are ONLY bad if you dont pre filter your water for debris. Hmm - I'm going to have to disagree with that statement. Not just a little bit but completely. The bio balls trap detritus, yes, and if allowed to build up will in-fact ultimately increase nitrates. However, the bio balls will only harbor aerobic bacteria which will only break down wastes to the level of nitrates - which are harmful to inverts (and fish too by the way). The bacteria grown on live rock host anaerobic bacteria, which breaks waste down to the level of nitrogen, which harmlessly evaporates out of the tank. Lets say you have you have LR AND bio balls. Still not good, because the large amounts of aerobic bacteria on the balls are so effecient at converting wastes to nitrates, that they will do so before the anaerobic bacteria on the LR has a chance to break down the waste. Fact: My fish with a skimmer, LR, and Macro are healthier and happier than any of the fish I kept with wet/dry or canister filtration.

11/04/2006, 11:45 PM	#16
cilyjr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,683	naterealbig i agree, that is what was explained to me a while back. i removed my bioballs. now my trates are less than 5ppm. as a word of caution to all who might read this and say i need to get rid of them now! if you have a well est. aquarium remove a few (10 or so) a day. as a loss in such a huge colony of bacteria could cause a spike in nitrites or worse ammonia. __________________ Cls Current Tank Info: 180 inwall, 75 sump, 20lfrag, 3x lumen max elite w/250w radium 20k, recirc modded asm g-3, aqua controller apex,2x rw-20, 350lbs LR

11/05/2006, 06:22 AM	#19
kelrn98 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Biloxi, MS Posts: 856	oh........ have plans to use "spagetti macroalgae" just did not reconcognize that term. Thanks!! __________________ ~Kelly~ Current Tank Info: 96x24x30 -300g mixed reef: 75g sump, 35g fuge, 2x MP60, 4x Radion Pros, reef octopus X5000 skimmer, way too much LR and a few fish

11/05/2006, 07:22 AM	#20
DgenR8 I'm an American and I remember Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 43,992	Took me a while at first, too. I'll let you in on something else while we're here. It's pronounced like "kaytomorpha" and a good local source is BillsReef __________________ “I wish there was a way to know that you were IN the good old days, before leaving them.” ~Andy Bernard Regional Manager, Scranton branch Dunder Mifflin Current Tank Info: Unknown slow drip, over 20 years damaged my house and heating system. No more tank.

11/05/2006, 07:52 AM	#21
kelrn98 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Biloxi, MS Posts: 856	Thanks for the info and link to Bill's Reef! I really appreciate all the help I can get! __________________ ~Kelly~ Current Tank Info: 96x24x30 -300g mixed reef: 75g sump, 35g fuge, 2x MP60, 4x Radion Pros, reef octopus X5000 skimmer, way too much LR and a few fish

11/05/2006, 08:13 AM	#22
DgenR8 I'm an American and I remember Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 43,992	That's why we're here __________________ “I wish there was a way to know that you were IN the good old days, before leaving them.” ~Andy Bernard Regional Manager, Scranton branch Dunder Mifflin Current Tank Info: Unknown slow drip, over 20 years damaged my house and heating system. No more tank.

11/05/2006, 08:25 AM	#23
cilyjr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Rhode Island Posts: 1,683	i saw a healthy drop in nitrates after adding the chaeto, i should say i have added about 3 times what the sell you in that 5ish dollar ball, and i did a 25% water change the day i added it. IMO water change brought them down chaeto kept it there. also it grows so fast you can harvest it. and i give it to my LFS so others can get some. sometimes you can work out a deal, say you don't have an RO/DI unit. trade it for free water! __________________ Cls Current Tank Info: 180 inwall, 75 sump, 20lfrag, 3x lumen max elite w/250w radium 20k, recirc modded asm g-3, aqua controller apex,2x rw-20, 350lbs LR