Pumps again.. Frustrated.

[eugenesa]

I am in the process of setting up my first reef - 29 gal (acrylic TruVu: 29 g display + 10 g sump). I did my research, read forums and reviews and have found what I thought was almost the best pump out there: Poseidon PS2. Ordered at MD, tested and noticed that the pump sometimes didn't want to start... Thought this was due to my sloppy test setup and that once I do all the real plumbing - it will work great. 2 months later with all the plumbing in place I, of course, still found the pump not starting (unless heavily shaken). It was now too late to return it, so the pump goes back to MD for warranty service, and I am now left without a pump...
Read more reviews and forums and found the next best pump: Eheim 1260. Ordered at MD, got it and quickly discovered that this guy was of european origin - the threads are aparently all metric, and the only way to attach it to anything would be via flex tubing. Didn't feel like redoing half of my plumbing to accomodate it, so the guy went back to MD for a refund.
Read more reviews and forums and found the next best pump: Mag 7. Ordered at MD, plumbed it in, turned it on... The good thing is that it works and it pumps water. The bad thing is that it vibrates so badly - my entire stand resonates, and thus I can clearly hear it running in almost every other room of my apartment. It is like my neighbours running their dryer. The pump runs external, and yes, I put a piece of foam undernearth it, and there are sections of flex tubing between the pump and the sump and SCWD. Despite all this, the sump resonates and excites the stand, and I can easily feel vibration even on SCWD, which is separated by 2 ft of flex tubing from the pump. Obviously this setup is not going to fly, and I will need to spend more green to add to my collection of pumps.
If you are still reading, I would appreciate an advise on what my next step should be:
a) Just wait until my original PS2 comes back after warrantly and hope it will work. I suspect this route can easily take a few months though.
b) Order Gen-X PCX-30
c) Order Gorman Rupp 14110

I would prefer my pump to be external, and it needs to fit in 8 inch or under by length as there is not much space left in the cabinet.

[flying-pro]

sometimes vibrations can occur because things are allowed to move around. Have you tried adding weight to it? Try putting your thumb on it, or a heavy book ect. If that works get either some duct strapping or heavy gauge wire from the hardware store and screw the wire down on both sides of the pump so that the wire holds the pump against the foam solidly. My chiller was horrible until I laid a book on it.

Just a thought. Advice given is only worth what you paid for it, but if it helps great. I am looking to buy a Poseidon PS2 External Pump so that I don't need to change any plumbing. Do you know the length of the pump??

[AZDesertRat]

Aqua Medic Ocean Runner from www.customaquatic.com . More efficient than Eheim and quiet.

[reefguy888]

Has anyone else had any problems with EHEIM not honoring their warranty? I got an EHEIM 1048 pump with my calcium reactor. The pump broke, and EHEIM said that they don't honor the warranty if the pump is used with a filter or calcium reactor.

So I'm out of luck. It kind of stinks. People pay top dollar for EHEIM, and they don't even honor the warranty. I don't know how using the pump to "pump water" can be considered misuse.

I am ranting here, but It bugs me that they tote a warranty and then when the thing breaks, tell you they were really just kidding about the warranty.

Disgruntled.

[nick18tjetta]

Iwaki

It may cost more money , but it will run for years worry free.

[sjm817]

All the pumps you have used are too big for a 29g/10g setup IMO. If you want external, something like a Panworld 10PX or 30PX

[cmc5dc]

I vote for Iwaki as well, I have Panworld side by side. I've had issues of Panworld stopping or failing to start back up while my Iwaki 70 ( Japanese ) keeps going. You get what you pay for.

[sjm817]

I just noticed you are running a SCWD. You have to upsize the pump considerably to make up for the flow loss from it. And yes, a Mag7 is a hideously noisy pump. I couldn't stand mine. You can use 3/4" sched 80 fittings in the Eheim. It is a slightly loose fit because of the metric size. If you wrap it up good with Teflon tape it shouldn't be a problem. I would think you could also use the rubber O Ring from the barb fitting on the 3/4" fitting too.

[pjf]

Most of the pumps that you cited are external recirculation pumps with male ¾� NPT threads to fit into a bulkhead on your sump. I would stick with that fitting as there are plenty of good pump choices here.

You’ve done some troubleshooting already:
1. The Poseidon PS2 (650gph@3’head) was sent for repairs due to starting problems.
2. The Eheim 1260 (635gph@0’head) was returned because it had BSPP threads instead of NPT.
3. The Mag 7 (700gph@0’head) was returned because it vibrated too harshly.

All of them would have generated more than enough circulation for your 29g aquarium and 10g sump. With good samples of these pumps, you would have had a turnover of about 15 times volume. Yet, you’ve already replaced a pump or two and you still have problems with the system.

Have you considered temporarily removing your SCWD from your loop and running a test with a pump? If you are sure that the SCWD is not the problem, consider a lower-flow pressure pump instead of a recirculation pump.

Do consider the fact that the hobby is moving away from having the return pump generate all of the flow. Noisy laminar-flow return pumps are being displaced by slower but quieter return pumps. This feeds less turbulent water to the sump skimmers and refugiums. Random flow devices, such as Vortech propellers, are being added to the display tank for circulation. This new flow strategy is quieter, more natural and improves skimmer and refugium performance.

[eugenesa]

Here is an update to my battle:

1. I have since decided to go sump-less. I am considering a closed loop with an inline heater. I have tried my best with all sorts of overflows and tricks (see the thread here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=986578) - I was not able to make it quite. My conclusion so far is that the overflow can be made "very loud", "loud" or, at best, "not at all loud". But never quite (unless converted to a syphon with a valve in discharge pipe). There is a mixture of water and air running down the pipe, and it makes the pipe noisy. I have seen a lot of people asking this exact question on multiple forums ("please, help, this thing is noisy; no, it is not the durso, and not the sump intake, its the pipes themselves - they sound like running toilet"), but I haven't seen a single answer other than "yeah... try to isolate the pipes... understand it will never be absolutely quite... may be you are not quite ready yet for a reef tank".

2. Lucky me, I have got money back from MD for both of my previous pumps, and this time I have got GRI 14110. Plumbed it for a closed loop with SCWD. Well, now I can hear that SCWD is actually awfully loud! No kidding - this device rattles like hell, and also it restricts flow to about 75% of what I am getting without it (~360 gph with SCWD .vs 480 gph without). Obviously, SCWD will need to go. As for the pump, it is close to where I would like it to be noise-wise, but still not quite. At the very least, will require adding some sound-proofing to inside the cabinet, as with both doors closed the cabinet generates faint, but quite annoying hum (this is with the pump resting on an inch of foam). This pump runs hot (~120 F) but I guess it is not a big deal.

I still want to avoid placing any powerhead-style devices into the tank. All I am wiling to stand is a couple of loc-lines. But with the sump now gone, I have a lot of space in the cabinet, and if there is any real quite pump out there, I am willing to give it a try (no matter what the size is). It still surprises me that a $150 50W motor generates this much noise and vibration. Why don't they just sell a 7"x7"x7" black box with two 3/4 MPTs and all the noise-damping inside called "aquarium pump", which one could just bolt on to the bottom of the cabinet, plumb in, turn on and forget that it exists? Oh, well..

[pjf]

Thanks for the update! I’m glad that you decided to remove the SCWD. That should both remove a source of noise and flow resistance.

Where do you plan to place your skimmer? If you are hesitant to place the skimmer in your 29-gallon display, shouldn’t you consider having a sump simply for the skimmer? Most skimmers require smooth water, not turbulent water with a lot of bubbles generated by fast flow. The bubbles interfere with foam production. You may consider reducing the flow for the sake of skimming as well as quiet operations.

The following article recommends 10cm/sec of water velocity: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/9/aafeature2. You may want to determine what return flow rate generates that velocity in your system.

[Bergovoy]

You may want to check out Oceans motions .com and look at the super awuirt for replacing yuor sqwd.

good luck

Bill

[eugenesa]

I am thinking to start without a skimmer... 1.5 - 2.0 lbs of live rock per gallon and not too much bioload...

[pjf]

I'm not trying to talk you into going back to the SCWD but here is a link to an apparently successful SCWD installation:
http://www.melevsreef.com/closedloop.html

I also read that the SCWD needs to be cleaned with vinegar a few times a year. A pump is needed to pump the vinegar through the SCWD.

[eugenesa]

SCWD worked for me pretty much as described. It is just that while I had durso and the sump, the noise from SCWD was not noticable. Now the primary source of noise is 500 gph water falling 3/4" into the overflow chamber. When due to evaporation the fall grows to 1 1/2" the noise becomes much more significant.

I suspect this particular complain about 3/4" waterfall noise will give a lot of reefers a good laugh as a lot of people seem to be tolerant of the noise produced by non-durso overflows combined with hot-tub entry to the sump. ("Dude, just incease your TV volume", right? )

[eugenesa]

Another update: I have ordered one more Poseidon PS2 and gave it a try. Wow! This must be the absolute quietest pump! I can't hear it from 2 ft away - neither hum nor vibration! I can feel slight vibrartion only when I touch the pump with my finger.

For a few hours I thought that my pump problem had now been solved, until I decided to measure my tank temperature... Well, after 24 hours of running closed loop on 29g acrylic tank my water temperature is 84 F, while my room temperature is at 66 F !!!! This is without any heater and with lights turned completely off. Holy %$#$! No surprise this pump runs just slightly warm to the touch - it is being effeciently water-cooled with my tank water...

I am now running with the back of the pump disassembled and a 12V fan placed just couple inches from it. Will post another update after 24 hours.

[Beenalongtime79]

So what happened with your fan cooled PS2? I've always heard that the poseidon pumps run hot.

Peace,
John

[eugenesa]

Fan cooling did not help much (not to mention the pump looked real naked with its cover off). I may have got it down from 84 to 82 F, but not much further. PS2 has a titanium "diaphragm" between the motor core and the water chamber, and that one seems to conduct heap off the core much better than I can do with a fan. Here is what I am up to right now:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1009042

Basically a heat exchanger with a closed loop for water-cooling. I am getting my final parts shipment in two days and will post the results once this project is ready.

[pjf]

Eugenesa,

I can’t help but think that all of the pumps that you have used are too powerful for your system and have resulted in excess noise, rising temperatures, and turbulence that reduces in-sump skimmer performance.

The guideline for turnover is usually 10X tank volume per hour. One popular way of generating turnover is to select a return pump that generates 5X turnover and add flow devices, such as powerheads, to generate another 5X turnover.

Here are my humble recommendations:
• Return pump: Eheim 1048 (160 gph, 10 watts, $60)
• Flow Device: Maxi-Jet 600 (160 gph, 7.5 watts, $15)
• Sump skimmer: Octopus NW-110 (250 gph, 18 watts, $135)

[chevegan]

I've been using a ViaAqua 1300 on my 20 for over 2 years. About 250gps which is what you want. Anymore and your skimmer may not be working to it's greatest potential. I have Never not once ever had a single problem with this pump. And in the years I've owned it have only cleaned it 3 times.

[eugenesa]

pjf,

The recommended flow that I am seeing references to is more like 20x-30x volume per hour, with 10x being the absolute minimum... It is probably true that one can achieve the same flow by combining low through-the-sump flow with a bunch of in-tank power-heads. However, I am trying to avoid having a powerheads in the tank, purely for aesthetics reasons. Now, I suspect that if I had a glass tank and not acrylic, then I have already been happy with PS2. Acrylic just makes the tank more of a "thermos".
Reflecting on my own experience, it seems that setting up a reef tank is no different than any other engineering project - the basic setup is very simple and it works, it just generates a lot of noise/heat/is too unsightful/whatever. And then one attempts to refine the design to make those nuisances less of an issue. Or one just uses the original design as is. Think Hyundai cars .vs Lexus cars - one can argue that Lexus has a lot of unnessary stuff in them...

(And, FWIW, when I place RIO 600 in the tank, I can still feel the noise and vibration it generates...)

[pjf]

Good luck, Eugenesa.

I would be very interested in your results with using computer water cooling equipment for aquarium cooling. You are definitely a pioneer!

We are rooting for you. Do keep us informed.

Thanks!

BTW - I am in full agreement that powerheads are unsightly. I am looking at Vortechs because they can be mounted low on the back glass and introduce little heat to the water.

[Beenalongtime79]

Originally posted by chevegan
I've been using a ViaAqua 1300 on my 20 for over 2 years. About 250gps which is what you want. Anymore and your skimmer may not be working to it's greatest potential. I have Never not once ever had a single problem with this pump. And in the years I've owned it have only cleaned it 3 times.

I have a completely different experience with the Via Aqua pumps. They are cheap for a very good reason. Quality control is poor so you are more likely than not to get a dud. I used one years ago and it broke in less than 3 months.

It was fortunate I was sitting next to the tank once it stopped functioning since I was using it as a return pump to my display from the sump. Luckily, I had a small Maxijet 1200 laying around and used it as a temporary solution.

Just my experience with the Via Aquas.

Peace,
John H.

[eugenesa]

I just posted the results of my water cooling experiment here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...32#post9124932

It did not help much, let along the complexity of building your own titanium heat exchanger (though there are now a ready-made ones on eBay for $275). I think I was getting like 70W from my PS2, and to dissipate those at 3C difference above ambient I would need to use 3 120mm radiator panels with fans... It becomes kinda bulky and complicated...

I then went to my LFS and bought Eheim 1262. This one was slightly better compared to PS2: I am getting 25% more flow, while running at 3C above ambient. It vibrates terribly though compared to PS2, and will require special mounts...

On a side note: PS2 actually sucks flow-wise. On the exact same setup with 6' height the flow I am getting from PS2 corresponds to 11' hight on its flow chart, while the flow I am getting from both Eheim and Mag-drive pumps corresponds to about 6'. PS2 underperformes while it serves you as a 70W always-on heater.

Now, with Eheim 1262 running, canope on and 120W lights on, I am still getting the tank to 27C or above with my ambient at 20C. This is not going to fly... Frankly I am not certain of what I should be trying next... Maybe it is indeed a combination of a sump + low-powered return pump + some ugly powerhead in the tank... And there is another problem with a high-flow closed loop, which goes through the overflow - micro-bubles. At 540 gph I am getting a lot of them...

.. How can pjf recommend eheim 1048 for a return pump when it only has about 5' of hight? I have about 6' from the bottomm of the cabinet to the upper rim of the tank, not counting a couple of 90 degree fittings along the way...

[sjm817]

You are using large water cooled pumps on a small system. You will have heat issues. Use a small return pump and some efficient powerheads in the display.