Just Getting Started

PhoenixFire · 08/29/2012, 07:44 AM

Hello Reef Central! I'm brand new around here and looking for some advice to help me make the switch from freshwater to saltwater. Here is a quick list of the tank and equipment I currently have:

72 Gallon Bow Front
Fluval 406 Canister (clean unused)
Hydor 300w Heater (clean unused)
Catalina 48" 2 bulb solar T5 HO (Ordered)
Hagen Glo 48" single bulb (Existing)

The questions I have for now primarily revolve around my equipment and what I need to purchase prior to putting life in the tank. As you noticed I have a new fixture on order, and an existing light from freshwater. This is my first concern because I placed the order for the new T5 fixture before I decided to make a saltwater reef in this tank. I'm worried that what I purchased will not be sufficient in the future for growing different types of corals. Herein lies my first real issue, I don't know which types of corals can grow and thrive under this light, and which corals require more intense lighting. The new canister and heater were a Birthday gift for me last week, and I've been told they're sufficient to run a saltwater reef setup by my LFS. I would like to confirm that before getting them wet. I don't know that a sump is really an option for this tank based on the location and cabinet space under the tank, but I'm open to ideas for sure. I was told by my LFS that I can get everything started without buying a protein skimmer, but would need to make the purchase later on depending on my coral and fish selections. I'd like to hear some more advice about that, and maybe get some suggestions for the skimmer I should use.

I don't want to ramble on too much longer, but this will be my very first attempt at saltwater. I am of the mindset that anything worth doing is worth doing right (within reason, my wallet is only so big) and would like to make sure I get the right materials and have a good game plan so I don't make any costly or time consuming mistakes. All in all I'm just looking for a ton of advice. Thanks!

Reeferz412 · 08/29/2012, 01:17 PM

you can run a sumpless reef tank. It can be done, but it is more work. You are showing patience, and have not bought anything (alive) until you collect the answers to your questions which is good.

For a 75 gallon aquarium I recommend a protein skimmer just because it really simplifies the maintenance and keeps nutrients in check in your system. I would suggest an Aquamaxx, Eshopps, Octopus, or Bubble Magus as good HOB skimmers. You can also purchase a CPR hob refugium to grow macro algae and pods and better control nutrient export, BUT it is not needed since your Live rock will serve as filtration. You will need water movement, I suggest either hydor koralia (wont kill your bank/wallet), tunze, sicce or ecotech powerheads. Canister filters are not used in saltwater applications but if you frequently clean them of the detritus buildup within, you store media inside but it is not recommended since they are a pain to have in saltwater applications and in the long run cause many nitrate problems if not cleaned.

As for your lights, your two bulb fixture is suffice for mushrooms and a variety of softies and perhaps at the top of your live rock to recieve better lighting, LPS corals. I would suggest going for a 4 bulb fixture. You will not be able to grow SPS (calcium-carbonate structured corals) under these fixtures and they also require a very stable water conditions and dosing.

Reeferz412 · 08/29/2012, 01:18 PM

IMO, trade in the Fluval 406 and go buy some powerheads, or a skimmer with the money.

djapel1 · 08/29/2012, 02:09 PM

If you have the money, or the time to come up with the money, I would get better lights. You don't want to limit yourself right out of the gate. However, if you don't want any of the high light demanding corals then a 4 bulb T5 would do the job, but like Reeferz412 said, you'll have to be a little more diligent on your placement.

PhoenixFire · 08/29/2012, 06:48 PM

Thanks for your advice so far. It looks like I have some decent HOB options available to me. I am considering getting a HOB overflow and trying to find a premade sump that would fit my tight dimensions, or maybe a DIY solution. If canister filters are going to cause more issues than they're worth I may as well return the Fluval and spend the money elsewhere. At this point I am committed to getting a RO/DI system set up in my utility room for good water. I'm still considering exchanging/returning the light fixture I have on order, but I'm still not sure what to get. The 4 bulb fixtures would be an upgrade but I've read a lot about LED and metal halide now too. The issue there comes down to price and what each setup can grow. I need to do more research on that it seems.

If I'm able to get a HOB overflow and a sump under my cabinet would it be a good idea to still get a HOB skimmer and refugium? I'm not sure what all will fit in the sump below since I have less than half the tank's length to work with because of the cabinet.

Can anyone recommend a good light fixture that won't break the bank, yet still allow me options in the coral arena? It seems like anything in 48" is going to cost a lot.

djapel1 · 08/30/2012, 11:21 AM

How good are you with DIY?

Reeferz412 · 08/30/2012, 01:30 PM

Halides without a sump or some sort of circulation of water to reduce the overall temp will be tough unless you run some fans and some people do with sumps/fuges. You can compliment your two bulb T5 fixture if you are adamant on keeping it, with some LED strips for supplemental lighting. Or... you can just buy an LED fixture or kit (whatever you fancy, RC sponsors awesome LED companies that sell kits or fixtures that will not break your bank). You can easily build a sump/fuge out of a 20 gallon long or ten gallon (bigger the better, more H2O volume means less chances of a paramter swing if mistakes are made and you can store more LR in your fuge or sand or macroalgae).

I just read the question about a reccomendation of a good fixture, you should look up the thread Chinese LED fixtures on I believe the equipment, lighting, and filtration part of RC forum. You can get an LED fixture that is RELIABLE and TESTED among the members here and probably grow anything under them for under 200.

PhoenixFire · 08/30/2012, 03:26 PM

I've decided I'm going to try out some DIY options with this setup. I want to put a sump under the tank, and I'm looking into HOB overflow options and also considering the DIY PVC overflow I saw on YouTube. The glass for this bowfront is tempered and there is a sticker stating it cannot be drilled, so I'm going to avoid that option still.

My thoughts at this point are that I'm going to return the 2 bulb fixture when it arrives and pay the restocking fee. I'm going to have the canister filter and heater I got as a gift returned and use the money from that stuff to invest in LED lights, an overflow and DIY sump setup, a protein skimmer, return pump and power head. Those items plus the previously mentioned RO/DI unit will hopefully be all of the equipment I'll need. Let me know if I'm forgetting any other essentials.

I'm still looking into my options for all of this and trying to price everything out so I know what I'm looking at. I'd like to get a skimmer in the sump under the tank if that's possible. The issue with the sump is that I only have a 20" length to work with, so I'm worried about how big it can be and what will fit in it. The only standard tank I know of that will fit is 10 gallons, and I'd like to get something bigger than that. I'm considering DIY there unless I stumble upon a cheap pre-built system that will fit my dimensions.

If you guys have more suggestions for equipment I'm open to hearing them.

Reeferz412 · 08/31/2012, 01:38 AM

Lifereef overflow boxes are the best imo, but I too did a DIY pvc overflow and it worked well for me. It was ugly lol, but it work for the few months I had it on my 20 gallon. I would just get an hob skimmer and make the ten gallon a fuge. I am not too sure you can fit anything in that small of a space with a fuge and a compartment to fit a skimmer in a ten gallon and another baffle for the return pump. When I had my 20 gallon with limited cabinet space, I still had an hob skimmer but I had my fuge running on the bottom.

Reeferz412 · 08/31/2012, 01:39 AM

Also what is the clearance if you put a ten gallon in and you wanted to remove the whole skimmer for cleaning or cup removal...

PhoenixFire · 08/31/2012, 12:12 PM

I don't have the exact clearance on hand right now, but I'm not too worried about height, just length and width.

So you're suggesting that I put the skimmer on the back and make a refugium in the sump? Being new to the hobby I don't fully understand all of the benefits of the refugium to know if it's better to have in the sump or hang on the back, provided I can't put it all under the tank. I think I would prefer having the skimmer underneath so that it's easier to do maintenance on with no chance of spilling skim back into the DT.

How large does the refugium need to be? If I had 20" length for the sump would a side-view setup like this work?

| 5" Return | 1" | 1" | 6" Skimmer | 7" Refugium |

I plan to make these decisions and order/build the things I need this weekend. I appreciate you helping me talk through this stuff.

PhoenixFire · 08/31/2012, 02:20 PM

I found this blog post http://www.remsreef.com/2009/12/diy-sump.html describing a sump similar to what I'm trying to build. I called around today and one of the LFS in my area has a 15 gallon tank I can use for this.

So the next step I think is to pick out the skimmer I want and decide what height the baffles need to be. Anyone have recommendations for a good skimmer I can use in my sump with a small footprint?

MrTuskfish · 08/31/2012, 02:26 PM

Not on the lights question; just a Welcome and a bit of unsolicited advice. Please get a quarantine tank and use it on all new fish. It is the easiest way to avoid huge problems down the road.

PhoenixFire · 08/31/2012, 07:50 PM

Thanks for the welcome and the bit of advice. A QT is part of my plans. I guess I just didn't put that in the budget yet because I plan to set that up while my tank is cycling.

Neptune_Fan · 08/31/2012, 08:09 PM

+1 on returning the Fluval. Cancel the order for the lights and try to find some equipment from local reefers. I use to live in Chesapeake so i know there are good people in your area. there is a club called hrrc.us in the area. look them up and join. there is also a few LFS that you will want to stay away from i wont name them here but ask in PM and ill let you know

Yes 48" fixtures can be pricey. LEDS are seemingly the wave of the future but you will be able to keep just about anything with a T5 fixture with the right placement of your corals. MH will run up you electric quick lol and VA power will love you for it!
Best thing to do is buy the best you can afford, or if you cant afford the best save some $$ until you can get the it because you will wind up spending the money twice.

PhoenixFire · 08/31/2012, 09:47 PM

It looks like I need a few more posts before I'm allowed to send you a PM. Feel free to send me one with your LFS experiences when you lived in this area.

As for HRRC, I joined their website earlier today but haven't spent any time going through the forums yet.

PhoenixFire · 09/03/2012, 11:52 AM

I have a 15 gallon tall tank soaking in vinegar and water right now in preparation for my sump build. The dimensions are 20 1/4 x 10 1/2 x 18 3/4. I decided that I'm going to order a Lifereef slimline overflow box and Bubble Magus NAC7 skimmer. I am still looking into return pump options and I'd like some ideas about plumbing this all together and what flow rates I need to have. The overflow box can handle 600 GPH with 1" drain according to their website. I'm going to have the overflow drain into the first chamber of the sump where the skimmer will be. I'm thinking that due to the limited width of the sump I need to keep this simple and only have two chambers with a bubble trap before the return. With that being the case does it make sense to put in extra filtration in the same chamber as the skimmer? What else should I put in this area?

Does it matter if I plumb this using PVC or vinyl tubing? I think the tubing would be easier, and I don't see the need for anything fancy here. For the return line I was thinking about putting a ball valve on the output since that seems like a pretty common way to regulate the flow. I would like some suggestions for which return pump I should get too. The sump will hold around 10 gallons and the DT is 72.

08/29/2012, 07:44 AM	#1
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	Just Getting Started Hello Reef Central! I'm brand new around here and looking for some advice to help me make the switch from freshwater to saltwater. Here is a quick list of the tank and equipment I currently have: 72 Gallon Bow Front Fluval 406 Canister (clean unused) Hydor 300w Heater (clean unused) Catalina 48" 2 bulb solar T5 HO (Ordered) Hagen Glo 48" single bulb (Existing) The questions I have for now primarily revolve around my equipment and what I need to purchase prior to putting life in the tank. As you noticed I have a new fixture on order, and an existing light from freshwater. This is my first concern because I placed the order for the new T5 fixture before I decided to make a saltwater reef in this tank. I'm worried that what I purchased will not be sufficient in the future for growing different types of corals. Herein lies my first real issue, I don't know which types of corals can grow and thrive under this light, and which corals require more intense lighting. The new canister and heater were a Birthday gift for me last week, and I've been told they're sufficient to run a saltwater reef setup by my LFS. I would like to confirm that before getting them wet. I don't know that a sump is really an option for this tank based on the location and cabinet space under the tank, but I'm open to ideas for sure. I was told by my LFS that I can get everything started without buying a protein skimmer, but would need to make the purchase later on depending on my coral and fish selections. I'd like to hear some more advice about that, and maybe get some suggestions for the skimmer I should use. I don't want to ramble on too much longer, but this will be my very first attempt at saltwater. I am of the mindset that anything worth doing is worth doing right (within reason, my wallet is only so big) and would like to make sure I get the right materials and have a good game plan so I don't make any costly or time consuming mistakes. All in all I'm just looking for a ton of advice. Thanks!

08/29/2012, 01:17 PM	#2
Reeferz412 Coral Hoarder Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,247	you can run a sumpless reef tank. It can be done, but it is more work. You are showing patience, and have not bought anything (alive) until you collect the answers to your questions which is good. For a 75 gallon aquarium I recommend a protein skimmer just because it really simplifies the maintenance and keeps nutrients in check in your system. I would suggest an Aquamaxx, Eshopps, Octopus, or Bubble Magus as good HOB skimmers. You can also purchase a CPR hob refugium to grow macro algae and pods and better control nutrient export, BUT it is not needed since your Live rock will serve as filtration. You will need water movement, I suggest either hydor koralia (wont kill your bank/wallet), tunze, sicce or ecotech powerheads. Canister filters are not used in saltwater applications but if you frequently clean them of the detritus buildup within, you store media inside but it is not recommended since they are a pain to have in saltwater applications and in the long run cause many nitrate problems if not cleaned. As for your lights, your two bulb fixture is suffice for mushrooms and a variety of softies and perhaps at the top of your live rock to recieve better lighting, LPS corals. I would suggest going for a 4 bulb fixture. You will not be able to grow SPS (calcium-carbonate structured corals) under these fixtures and they also require a very stable water conditions and dosing. __________________ Alex FMAS Member Current Tank Info: 400 Gallons of frags... 30 gallon Deep Blue mixed reef ... 70 other tanks throughout south FL

08/29/2012, 01:18 PM	#3
Reeferz412 Coral Hoarder Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,247	IMO, trade in the Fluval 406 and go buy some powerheads, or a skimmer with the money. __________________ Alex FMAS Member Current Tank Info: 400 Gallons of frags... 30 gallon Deep Blue mixed reef ... 70 other tanks throughout south FL

08/30/2012, 01:30 PM	#7
Reeferz412 Coral Hoarder Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,247	Halides without a sump or some sort of circulation of water to reduce the overall temp will be tough unless you run some fans and some people do with sumps/fuges. You can compliment your two bulb T5 fixture if you are adamant on keeping it, with some LED strips for supplemental lighting. Or... you can just buy an LED fixture or kit (whatever you fancy, RC sponsors awesome LED companies that sell kits or fixtures that will not break your bank). You can easily build a sump/fuge out of a 20 gallon long or ten gallon (bigger the better, more H2O volume means less chances of a paramter swing if mistakes are made and you can store more LR in your fuge or sand or macroalgae). I just read the question about a reccomendation of a good fixture, you should look up the thread Chinese LED fixtures on I believe the equipment, lighting, and filtration part of RC forum. You can get an LED fixture that is RELIABLE and TESTED among the members here and probably grow anything under them for under 200. __________________ Alex FMAS Member Current Tank Info: 400 Gallons of frags... 30 gallon Deep Blue mixed reef ... 70 other tanks throughout south FL

08/31/2012, 01:38 AM	#9
Reeferz412 Coral Hoarder Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,247	Lifereef overflow boxes are the best imo, but I too did a DIY pvc overflow and it worked well for me. It was ugly lol, but it work for the few months I had it on my 20 gallon. I would just get an hob skimmer and make the ten gallon a fuge. I am not too sure you can fit anything in that small of a space with a fuge and a compartment to fit a skimmer in a ten gallon and another baffle for the return pump. When I had my 20 gallon with limited cabinet space, I still had an hob skimmer but I had my fuge running on the bottom. __________________ Alex FMAS Member Current Tank Info: 400 Gallons of frags... 30 gallon Deep Blue mixed reef ... 70 other tanks throughout south FL

08/29/2012, 02:09 PM	#4
djapel1 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 18	If you have the money, or the time to come up with the money, I would get better lights. You don't want to limit yourself right out of the gate. However, if you don't want any of the high light demanding corals then a 4 bulb T5 would do the job, but like Reeferz412 said, you'll have to be a little more diligent on your placement.

08/29/2012, 06:48 PM	#5
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	Thanks for your advice so far. It looks like I have some decent HOB options available to me. I am considering getting a HOB overflow and trying to find a premade sump that would fit my tight dimensions, or maybe a DIY solution. If canister filters are going to cause more issues than they're worth I may as well return the Fluval and spend the money elsewhere. At this point I am committed to getting a RO/DI system set up in my utility room for good water. I'm still considering exchanging/returning the light fixture I have on order, but I'm still not sure what to get. The 4 bulb fixtures would be an upgrade but I've read a lot about LED and metal halide now too. The issue there comes down to price and what each setup can grow. I need to do more research on that it seems. If I'm able to get a HOB overflow and a sump under my cabinet would it be a good idea to still get a HOB skimmer and refugium? I'm not sure what all will fit in the sump below since I have less than half the tank's length to work with because of the cabinet. Can anyone recommend a good light fixture that won't break the bank, yet still allow me options in the coral arena? It seems like anything in 48" is going to cost a lot.

08/30/2012, 11:21 AM	#6
djapel1 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 18	How good are you with DIY?

08/30/2012, 03:26 PM	#8
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	I've decided I'm going to try out some DIY options with this setup. I want to put a sump under the tank, and I'm looking into HOB overflow options and also considering the DIY PVC overflow I saw on YouTube. The glass for this bowfront is tempered and there is a sticker stating it cannot be drilled, so I'm going to avoid that option still. My thoughts at this point are that I'm going to return the 2 bulb fixture when it arrives and pay the restocking fee. I'm going to have the canister filter and heater I got as a gift returned and use the money from that stuff to invest in LED lights, an overflow and DIY sump setup, a protein skimmer, return pump and power head. Those items plus the previously mentioned RO/DI unit will hopefully be all of the equipment I'll need. Let me know if I'm forgetting any other essentials. I'm still looking into my options for all of this and trying to price everything out so I know what I'm looking at. I'd like to get a skimmer in the sump under the tank if that's possible. The issue with the sump is that I only have a 20" length to work with, so I'm worried about how big it can be and what will fit in it. The only standard tank I know of that will fit is 10 gallons, and I'd like to get something bigger than that. I'm considering DIY there unless I stumble upon a cheap pre-built system that will fit my dimensions. If you guys have more suggestions for equipment I'm open to hearing them.

08/31/2012, 01:39 AM	#10
Reeferz412 Coral Hoarder Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Miami, FL Posts: 2,247	Also what is the clearance if you put a ten gallon in and you wanted to remove the whole skimmer for cleaning or cup removal... __________________ Alex FMAS Member Current Tank Info: 400 Gallons of frags... 30 gallon Deep Blue mixed reef ... 70 other tanks throughout south FL

08/31/2012, 12:12 PM	#11
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	I don't have the exact clearance on hand right now, but I'm not too worried about height, just length and width. So you're suggesting that I put the skimmer on the back and make a refugium in the sump? Being new to the hobby I don't fully understand all of the benefits of the refugium to know if it's better to have in the sump or hang on the back, provided I can't put it all under the tank. I think I would prefer having the skimmer underneath so that it's easier to do maintenance on with no chance of spilling skim back into the DT. How large does the refugium need to be? If I had 20" length for the sump would a side-view setup like this work? \| 5" Return \| 1" \| 1" \| 6" Skimmer \| 7" Refugium \| I plan to make these decisions and order/build the things I need this weekend. I appreciate you helping me talk through this stuff.

08/31/2012, 02:20 PM	#12
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	I found this blog post http://www.remsreef.com/2009/12/diy-sump.html describing a sump similar to what I'm trying to build. I called around today and one of the LFS in my area has a 15 gallon tank I can use for this. So the next step I think is to pick out the skimmer I want and decide what height the baffles need to be. Anyone have recommendations for a good skimmer I can use in my sump with a small footprint?

08/31/2012, 02:26 PM	#13
MrTuskfish Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Wild Blue Yonder Posts: 8,887	Not on the lights question; just a Welcome and a bit of unsolicited advice. Please get a quarantine tank and use it on all new fish. It is the easiest way to avoid huge problems down the road. __________________ If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. Steve Current Tank Info: 180, 2-240 FOWLRs, 240 reef

08/31/2012, 07:50 PM	#14
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	Thanks for the welcome and the bit of advice. A QT is part of my plans. I guess I just didn't put that in the budget yet because I plan to set that up while my tank is cycling.

08/31/2012, 08:09 PM	#15
Neptune_Fan Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Port St Lucie, FL Posts: 224	+1 on returning the Fluval. Cancel the order for the lights and try to find some equipment from local reefers. I use to live in Chesapeake so i know there are good people in your area. there is a club called hrrc.us in the area. look them up and join. there is also a few LFS that you will want to stay away from i wont name them here but ask in PM and ill let you know Yes 48" fixtures can be pricey. LEDS are seemingly the wave of the future but you will be able to keep just about anything with a T5 fixture with the right placement of your corals. MH will run up you electric quick lol and VA power will love you for it! Best thing to do is buy the best you can afford, or if you cant afford the best save some $$ until you can get the it because you will wind up spending the money twice.

08/31/2012, 09:47 PM	#16
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	It looks like I need a few more posts before I'm allowed to send you a PM. Feel free to send me one with your LFS experiences when you lived in this area. As for HRRC, I joined their website earlier today but haven't spent any time going through the forums yet.

09/03/2012, 11:52 AM	#17
PhoenixFire Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 15	I have a 15 gallon tall tank soaking in vinegar and water right now in preparation for my sump build. The dimensions are 20 1/4 x 10 1/2 x 18 3/4. I decided that I'm going to order a Lifereef slimline overflow box and Bubble Magus NAC7 skimmer. I am still looking into return pump options and I'd like some ideas about plumbing this all together and what flow rates I need to have. The overflow box can handle 600 GPH with 1" drain according to their website. I'm going to have the overflow drain into the first chamber of the sump where the skimmer will be. I'm thinking that due to the limited width of the sump I need to keep this simple and only have two chambers with a bubble trap before the return. With that being the case does it make sense to put in extra filtration in the same chamber as the skimmer? What else should I put in this area? Does it matter if I plumb this using PVC or vinyl tubing? I think the tubing would be easier, and I don't see the need for anything fancy here. For the return line I was thinking about putting a ball valve on the output since that seems like a pretty common way to regulate the flow. I would like some suggestions for which return pump I should get too. The sump will hold around 10 gallons and the DT is 72.