making aqueon 20 L rimless ?

[7808]

picked up a 20 long from petco, wondering with it not being very large if i can make it rimless without it exploding, at least the top rimless, and if i will need to do anything if so

anyone done this?

[jong11]

Bad idea. It's not designed to be rimless.

[jsjonesrdh]

Glass is too thin

[7808]

ive seen it done a few forums have pictures setup with water in them, just not sure how long it lasted..

http://tylervolk.webs.com/photos/20L/007.JPG

[7808]

bump, no one has anything else to ad, just that it wont work? i feel like theres enough pictures of setup de-rimmed 20L when i google it that i might attempt it

[Ron Reefman]

How thick is the glass? A 20g is so small it may well work. I made my own 24g rimless frag tank, but I used 3/8th inch glass and it's only 10" tall.

[Kawi9_cf]

I could see maybe the 15 long being okay but I would be afraid to do the 20

[nemosworld]

The 20 long will be fine, the plastic trim is just to hide the imperfection of the glass.
if it had a center brace i might be worried, but it does not.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by 7808

bump, no one has anything else to ad, just that it wont work? i feel like theres enough pictures of setup de-rimmed 20L when i google it that i might attempt it

The rim on the tank is a engineered part of how the tank stays together. The tank is not designed to be filled with water, without the rim. In other words, the tank is not engineered to be a rimless tank. Pulling the rim off is asking for a flood all over you living room. I am aware that many uninformed people remove the rims on these tanks, and much larger tanks..............they must like living dangerously.

It takes hours searching the internet looking for the answer you want to hear. It only takes a few seconds for your happy pretty tank--to turn into a mess all over your floor.

[7808]

ah more conflicting info!

i really like the size and dimensions of the 20 long but the black plastic trim seems thicker/more of a eye soar then most sizes

the dimensions are about 30.3" x 12.5" x 12.8"

[uncleof6]

My suggestion would be, if you like the rimless look, then purchase a tank that is engineered to be rimless. This tank would have thicker glass, be heavier, and if it blew apart--the builder would pay for the damages to your home.

[sleepydoc]

+1 uncle's comment - get an aquarium that was designed to do the job you want it to do.

Safety is not determined by outcome, but rather by risk before the outcome is known.

[akitareefer]

I made my 20 gallon rimless in May. It lasted till September until it started leaking. I even made a nice little side sump area for my skimmer. She's in the trash now

[7808]

that looks cool but super thin, i didnt think the aqueon glass is that thin

also the 20 long is not very high, might make it better for de-rimming ? shallow = less water pressure.. kinda i guess its still the same volume

i was not planning on removing the bottom black plastic either

[uncleof6]

No rimmed tank is suitable for de-rimming. I cannot be made any clearer than that. It is in the engineering: it is engineered with the rim as an integral part of what holds the tank together. The answer is not going to change.

[TJ_Burton]

You can remove the top trim and euro brace it with glass for a look that is closer to "rimless" but you shouldn't take the rim off without reinforcing it somehow.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

You can remove the top trim and euro brace it with glass for a look that is closer to "rimless" but you shouldn't take the rim off without reinforcing it somehow.

That assumes that the top edge is actually finished, most are just ragged edges waiting to chop up your hands and arms at the slightest provocation. Eurobracing won't do a thing to solve that issue. In the long run, if you want a rimless tank, go and buy a rimless tank. The tank is the small expense asscociated with this hobby.

[mcgyvr]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

if you want a rimless tank, go and buy a rimless tank.

pfft..that just makes way too much sense

"but I'm too cheap and want rimless"

[sleepydoc]

As outlined above, the plastic rim and brace on a rimmed tank is not just for covering up the jagged edge; it adds structural integrity to the tank.

Find a rimless tank, measure the glass thickness, then find an equivalent tank with a rim. Now ask yourself, did they make the glass thicker just because they wanted to make it more expensive?

[7808]

i was at a petsmart and the other day and it was kind of weird, they had a rimless standard 20 tall new with stand and it came that way from tetra or some other major tank seller, the glass didn't not look very thick, looked standard, should snap a pic next time im in there..

[sleepydoc]

Was it Truly rimless, or eurobraced? If it was rimless, measure the actual thickness, and check to see if it's tempered.

As mentioned repeatedly above, the flimsy plastic frame on a regular tank contributes a significant amount to the strength and integrity. If the a rimless tank is actually made of the same glass as a rimmed tank one is either over or under-built

[7808]

not trying to prove anything, just seen that and thought of this. there was no bracing on top the clear cover just had little pieces of plastic every few inches to keep it centered on the top.. they didnt actually clip on it just sat on top

googled a picture of the exact one i think i seen

http://************.com/files/2013/0...-aquarium1.jpg it cuts out "reef builders" from the URL

or search marineland frameless 20H in google

in person, the glass did not look thicker or special then my standard 20h glass tank from petco i made into a sump, but i dont think i could tell regular glass apart from tempered, or the price difference, because the price of the marineland tank seemed to go mostly towards the stand and light etc..

everything you guys said makes sense to me, so when i seen this one in the store i was thinking that looks like a de-rimmed normal 20H , what?

[Fredfish]

[QUOTE=uncleof6;21103761]The rim on the tank is a engineered part of how the tank stays together...[ /QUOTE]

Would you happen to have a reference to a source documenting the details? I don't doubt this is correct, but I wonder how much engineering went into this and how one might calculate the safety factors of the various options.

In my own case, I have run both a 40 breeder rimless and a 65 regular tank rimless, blissfully ignorant of safety factors. One was run for 4 years this way, the other for 5 years.

The 40 breeder had a one piece rim, but it was quite thin/small. It was, however well glued down to the tank. The 65 had a substantial rim, but it was in three pieces: two ends connected by strips running along the long side. In both cases, I wonder how rigid the rims were. The one piece was quite easy to bend and flex, the two piece had considerable flexibility at the joints.

Knowing what little more I do now, I would not again take a tank and just pull the rim off, but I do want to know more about what goes into the 'engineering'.

As a side note, I see that the general recommendation for a glass tank is a safety factor of 3.8 and this is what I think rimmed tanks are built to, but the safety factor for a rimless is 5.xx. Again, I wonder why the difference. It is possible that one or the other number has been mis-quoted.

[uncleof6]

I get that alot, it seems. However, with 20 something years building small and large rimless tanks, i am my own document; my own source.

The thing that needs to be understood, is that the actual end result safety factor cannot be calculated. It is very subjective, once you set a safety factor for the glass, though we can take the tensile strength of glass (the lowest average value,) allowable bending stress, modulus of elasticity, pressure, and a set safety factor...along with some constants, and arrive at a glass thickness, that will not bow much, < 1mm, given the proposed conditions.

What the actual safety factor will be depends on a number of variables that would probably boggle your mind. Not the least of which is the amatuer trying to build the tank. I can calculate a 7.8 safety factor for the glass, and the person building it can cause that safety factor to drop to 3 or even lower, without trying very hard, and judging by the quality of information on the internet, that is very likely.

Some numbers do get thrown around, and often are really not understood either. 3.8 is a common quoted safety factor; the more responsible writers saying that is intended for a tank using a full metal rim. Given the variables in tank building, it is irresponsible to use less than 7.6 sf for a rimless tank, at the hobbyist level or even at moderate experience levels.

I find it even more foolish to try to "reverse engineer" a manufactured tank, and try to figure out what they were thinking, if they were thinking at all. These tanks have cost as a bottom line, not value, longevity or quality. If the tank fails, it is pretty much a no brainer that the user did not buy the "required" stand for the tank, so the warranty is nullified. Granted they don't fail with any regularity, or predictable pattern. 60 gallons cube are bowing a very noticeable 1/4" or so, and 3mm of bow is time to hit the panic button...now I have not heard of one coming apart yet, but ... not in my house, and I would not deliver that garbage to a client either.

In general, you want better than 3.8 for a rimmed tank (it is the shape that prevents/minimizes bowing, that aids in keeping the tank together; towards a 5 for a eurobraced tank, and 7.6 for a rimless. After it is built, it is what it is, and I don't know what it is, unless I build it, or Miracles builds it, or Lee Mar builds it...and a small handful of others.

But folks are going to do what they want to do, regardless. You pulled the rims off, and you were lucky. But you put a lot of faith in something you don't know a whole lot about, and that makes that decision somewhat less than wise. As a builder I would not recommend anyone do it; being responsible I say don't do it, it is a risk few can afford.

[evsalty]

I have a rimless 24x24x12 tank. The glass on that is 5mm non tempered. 5mm does not bow to any visible amount with a 12" height which is roughly the same height for the 20L. I also have a 20L Aqueon tank for my sump. When I get a chance tomorrow afternoon I will measure the 20l's glass to see if it is the same or thinner.

While I am at it I will also measure my 40br's glass as that does still have the rim yet has visible bow. But it is 16" tall do it would require thicker glass to be rimless. Heck I think it should have thicker glass even to be rimmed. Makes me wonder how much strength the rim is really adding.