need clarification

[ctenophors rule]

at my school we hav e a tank, and what i think is msome terrible advice.

it has been set up for a while, and is looking good, till i notice that they take the tank with no fish and add 9. 4 clown fish, 2 neon dotybacks, 2 fang tooth blennies, and one other doty bac k i havent gotten a good look at.

this is only maybe a forty gallon (probably a 36) tank, and they aded all of those fish at once. plus 3 shrimp)

then i am shocked to see that the temp is at 74.6 degrees!!!!!

the scientist at the facility say that it is to keep deseases at bay, but the xenia sure doesn't like it.

the four clownfish havent started pairing up yet, but from what i have heard, false percs will kill conspecifics ,especialy when they pair up.

the scientist says that since they were added at once they should be fine.

the scientist also tells them not to defrost the food, only to feed blood worms, not to use a protien skimmer,and to keep the salinity at 29 ppt, i mean come on!!!!!

i cant be crazy.....can i.

please let me kn ow asap.

apparently all of my books and other soures are wrong.

[kfisc]

Maybe they're conducting a fiendish experiment to see how fast they can kill them.

[Icefire]

Well it's not that bad:

I keep my temps at 77-78F
Food can be put whole, it will defrost quickly anyway.
They did overstock
Protein Skimmer is not required
The Salinity is fine for fish only (1.022)
Clown if added all at once can live happy, but problem might happen, at least they aren't maroon clown.
The food should be a mix, blood worm can be given but it's best to vary.

[ctenophors rule]

kfisc, that thought did cross my mind once or twice.

the protein skimmer isn't required per se, but if your nitriites wont drop from 10.....

their ph is kept low as well, 7.9.

they are constantly adding a denitrifying chemical as well.


let me know, some of the fishes colors have been fading quickly.



and how should i tell them the problems i see???

[Icefire]

ph can't be regulated without affecting ALK, so leave it there.

Nitrite have no effect on fish in seawater, only amonia matter and it's the bacteria that remove it.

I think you slightly over react on this... try to be civil and tell them what is wrong or ask for an explanation

[ctenophors rule]

well i was not going to yell at them. lol.

a ph of 7.9 durring the day is bad for the tank, isn't it???

i mean imagine what it becomes at night.

their explanation for the low temp, salinity, ph, and other paramaters are that it is supposed to help prevent disease.

one last question though (maybe not last) the clown fish will kill each other when the pair.....correct? they are already showing signs of aggresion,. and one of them is always in a corner, wierd that three are hanging together.

[ctenophors rule]

oh forgot, they dont test alk.

[Icefire]

Well PH can only be regulated with the CO2/Limewater as if you use PH up or other buffer, you'll raise alk and the ph raise is very short in time. Also PH test kit aren't that good, it could be 8.0 too. What brand?

If they don't test for alk I hope they don't add corals and buffers.

The salinity is fine, 1.022-1.027 is fine as range, some LFS keep fish in 1.018 for "disease control" but it might/might not work.

Low temp will slow disease like ich by slowing reproduction but it also affect the fish's metabolism.

Clownfish are know to chase each other, unless one is VERY stressed, I wouldn't panic. what size are they? If they are regular O. or P. clowns, one will be the female and you'll have 3 males probably. so nothing to panic there.

If it was maroon clown, you could see death way more often.

[ctenophors rule]

wait, you mean one female, will pair with three males? thats awesome!!! i have always read that they cant be kept in agregations because they will kill each other, case in point i have seen it happen to my not so informed friend. (lfs said it was kosher.) but i guess it all depends on their temperment???

they do have corals, no hards, right now just a dieing xenia.

the clown fish are about 2 inches long, full sized at three, all males i am guessing because they came directly from the aquaculture faility.

btw, added another fish today. some kind of psuedocromis i think, havent been able to get a good look.

i just dont ant to see a tank crash.

thanks icefire.

[SNAKEMANVET]

The clowns will not get along.I had 5 ocs in a 75 gallon, all were put in at the same time.They were about 1/2 long. When one turned to female she only excepted one male.The other clowns were on my living floor 2 days later.

[tmz]

That is a small tank for 9 fish.

The amphiprion (clownfishes ) will likely fight and harrass at least one of the 4 to death; if not 2. The dotty backs are territorial and aggressive as well and ther will likely be problems with them.

1.022 salinity will not support corals or other isontonic organisms( those that can not osmoregualte ) for very long. It won't do much if anything to prevent to disease. It won't hurt the fish in the short run but they are evolved to live in much higher salinities. Their kidneys and other internal organs may be affected in the long run.

Low temperatures slow the metabolism of all the organisms. The lower metabolism could weaken the fish and make them more susceptible to disease.

Quarantine is a good way to control disease for new additions. Adding them slowly is better because it gives the biological filter a chance to colonize enough to consume the additional bioload and prevent ammonia poisoning.

[ctenophors rule]

thanks guys, i thought the clown colony was i little fishy.

today the water was at 73.5, and ms. teacher said that it was 68 last night. they dont have any kind of heating at all.

those temp swings must be horrible on the fish, not to mention the xenia which looks horrible.

okay so their kidneys and other organs can be affected.

just wondering, diseases are caused by fish coming into contact with diseased fish or stress, corect? if that is so than how does lowering salt and temp kill the disease, shouldn't the stress it puts on fish create more disease?

thanks, for a second their i thought i was going insane.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by Icefire
ph can't be regulated without affecting ALK, so leave it there.

It most certainly can and low PH is often a result of poor gas exchange.

Ctenphors, the temp swings aren't nearly as big a problem as the range/. Tropical species just won't do well longterm when subjected to those temps.

You're also right about many things with the tank... It's overstocked, stocked too quickly, has some precarious fish matchings such as 4 clowns. I don't see why it not being 4 maroons makes a big difference, it's probably going to be the same end result either way, it'll just be a more long drawn out process.

The specific gravity isn't a big deal in itself since many people kept reef tanks at 1.022-23 for many years, but it's just one more thing that's not quite right adding up to what will be a big failure if things aren't changed.

[seapug]

I wouldn't worry about the temperature too much. Temps in the mid 70s are common when you get down below 20 feet. The salinity is low, which probably won't bother the fish too much, but corals and inverts will probably not be too happy. Protein skimmers aren't "required" but have many long term benefits to the system. The low pH issue is probably caused by low oxygen/high CO2 concentration, which a protein skimmer would help with.

The thing I would be most concerned about with this setup is the "scientists" who are managing it. They might benefit from updating their knowledge base from the early 80s information base they seem to be drawing from.

[Rich D]

If its a fish only tank then the parameters aren't actually too bad at all, fish are used to a differential in temperature and salinity because they can constantly be swimming in deeper water. A few months ago before I bought both heaters for my (new) reef tank, the temp dropped down to 73 and it did not greatly effect the few corals that are in there. The tank is overstocked though, and I could see a fight including the clowns, or dotty backs.

[ctenophors rule]

seapug, i was looking through every book i have and didn't find any recomendations for those parameters, unless low salt for treating certain diseases. it does seem that their info is out dated.

the wierd thing is that the scientist are apart of an aquaculture facility, and that is why they are trusted, above myself, a lowely student.

bubbles 129129, the tank has a xenia in it now, and they were talking about adding leathers and some hard corals. the hard corals because the calcium is "extremely high" dont know thye number all i was told was the quoted phraze

[tmz]

You asked how temperature and salinity can help with disease. The reasoning for temperature is slower metabolism and therefore perhaps slower reproduction by pathenogens. But as I noted earlier it also slows the metabolism of desireable organisms and could weaken them.

Lower slainity kills organisms that can't osmoregulate. To do so quickly and effectively a much lower salinity than 1.022 would be needed. Hypo salinity teatments are generally 1.009 for controlling ich as an example.

Here's what happens.Marine fish have an internal sg of about 1.008. They have evolved in higher sg waters in the range of 1.024 to 1.030. The standard often noted for natural seawater is 1.0264 They are able to maintain a constant internal sg of 1.008 in these waters by drinking large amounts of sea water and passing very concentrated urine. They need to maintain this internal 1.008 to keep their body chemistry in line and avoid chemical imbalances dehydration and death.

Invertebrates including corals as well as bacteria and parasites have no way to maintain a sg in their body that is different from the water around them. They can tolerate a small range of variation but basically their internal chemistry is dependent on a certain rather narrow range of sg. When the sg is too low they become flooded with fluids and loose the ability to function and survive. When it's too high they pickle and die. i think it's best to go for natural seawater values with them.

BTWI do not agree that 1.022 is within the acceptable range for a reeef tank.

[ctenophors rule]

thanks tom, we learnt about osmoregulator/conformors/ with an unlucky sea cucumber.

so if the fish have their internal sg at 1.008, can they be kept in 1.008 sg water? and just have more less concentrated urine like the freshies?

today they added water to the top of the tank, its been a little low.

sg. 1.020

i, think i am getting through to the teacher, i have shown her a few of my books, and she seems a little skeptical of the scientists ways. also she says she will bring up my concerns to them so we are headed i nthe right direction.

[tmz]

Marine fish can't tolerate water below 1.008 sg for very long since they have no way to manage it. Their kidneys and other organs are built to process concetrated waste. Hypotonic organisms( non osmoconfrmerts) like marine fish can tolerate lower sgs than their natural environment as long as they don't go below 1.008,their internal salinity without any stress at all. They just drink less and process less water.
However, if a non natural level is maintained for a long period thier internal organs may atrophy or sustain long term negative effects.

Fresh water fish are hypertonic. They have the opposite problem : they are saltier than their surrounding water so they drink little and pass large amounts of urine from the water that seeps into their tissues. Their internal organs are buit for this process.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by tmz


BTWI do not agree that 1.022 is within the acceptable range for a reeef tank.

I certainly don't suggest it, simply pointing out that the consequences aren't usually as dire as you're making them out to be. It wasn't all that long ago that people were maintaining successful reef tanks at a SG of 1.022 and lower.

[ctenophors rule]

thanks guys, thats pretty cool, i never realised that salt water fish could actualy survive in that low of salinity, a shame about the side effects.

[tmz]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
I certainly don't suggest it, simply pointing out that the consequences aren't usually as dire as you're making them out to be. It wasn't all that long ago that people were maintaining successful reef tanks at a SG of 1.022 and lower.

Glad we agree and niether of us suggests it.
Success and dire are realtive terms. Some corals may have a braoder range of tolerance long term for lower salinities. than others. Anemones and xenia in particualr are quite intolerant of low sg in my experience.Sps don't seem to like it either. Lower sg also means lower calcium, magnesium and alkalinity in many cases since salt mixes include substantial quantities of these as well as trace elements.

[reefscape15]

Keeping cold blooded animals at a lower temp will decrease theyr metabolism, therefore lengthening theyr lifespan. If it takes they longer to do everything and digest and grow, it will take them longer to mature, and eventually die and decay. I keep my tank in the lower to mid 70's, trying to keep it steady at 74, and i have a very healthy colony of Xenia that is splitting and thriving. They definately added too many fish for that size of tank, but salinity seems ok at the range you've said. It is said that aquarium inhabitants are so touchy, and perfect parameters need to be kept consistant, but in reality, these animals are very capable of unconsistant conditions, and can survive (although they may get stressed) very harsh climates at times. I hope that all the fish and coral survive, and i do hope that your instructor is willing to take in some info from your resources. Keep us posted on the success!

[seapug]

I think what we are seeing here is the difference between the way a reef tank hobbyist views the system and a scientist at an aquaculture facility sees the system.

Aquaculture scientists work in an environment that deals with managing large populations of fish in various stages of growth in cramped conditions. Low temps and reduced salinities are a technique they use to reduce the incidence of epidemic disease. They hatch them, grow them out, then ship them off to stores.

On the other hand, a reef tank hobbyist is likely to view the tank not as a sterile holding pen, but rather as a complete system that's intended to be a long term, permanent home for a variety of creatures with specific needs.

This tank sounds about what I would expect a tank set up by aquaculture scientists look like.
Just because you are the smartest lab tech at a paint factory doesn't mean you can paint like DaVinci.

Keep talking with that teacher. The modern reef tank hobby is fertile ground for people with scientific inclinations. It's about the closest you can come to creating a self contained ecosystem in your living room.

[tmz]

Why would a fish that has evolved over millions if not billions of years to thrive in reef water temperatures from the low to mid 80s fare better at a metabolic rate caused by unnaturally low temperatures? The argument that everything happens more slowly and therefore life is prolonged does not make any sense. Ultimately low metabolism is death.