So I went to the local aquarium and am depressed. Cheer me up? - Page 2

ludnix · 10/04/2009, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pmrossetti

I think you're rationalizing a bit here. Ever seen the overwhelming sight of yellow tangs swarming a reef? So big, bright, colorful,fat? I don't for a moment equate a fish with a human, but who knows how they really feel. They don't live as long, get ich at the drop of a hat and in most cases are cramped. They can't speak but it shows in other ways. Finding Nemo was a cartoon,but reef fishes that are supposed to be in the cleanest purest, largest volumes of water and instead are in 55g to whatever cannot live the way they're supposed to. Just admit it. Then go on like the rest of us to keep them anyway. But be honest. Don't fool yourself.

I find it distressing the way you're using the words "supposed to" and in a previous post "meant to be". These fish happen to live in the coral reefs, there is no reason to suggest that they are supposed to.

BuddhaKiss · 10/04/2009, 01:03 AM

For all intents and purposes, keeping pets in general is a selfish human act. I don't think you can get around that. Whether it's keeping hamsters, reptiles, even fish. Do birds really belong in a cage? It's very hard for us to truly replicate any of our pets natural environment in terms of space. All we can really do is make every attempt possible to give them the best life that we can. And although the space we provide our pets, fish included, will never be like it is in the wild, we also diminish some of the stresses that these fish have to deal with. As long as we are smart and diligent with our husbandry, our fish will never go hungry, our fish will never be eaten (although there still some knuckleheads out there that still keep lionfish with damsels), etc.

I had a conversation a while back with some people who despised zoos. I love em, always have. But there argument was that it was cruel to keep such large animals as tigers, elephants, etc. in such a confined space. And I couldn't help but to agree. But at the same time, I see some value in zoos and even public aquariums, as they are usually the catalysts for some children (even me when I was a wee kid) to kick start my interest to science and education

lordofthereef · 10/04/2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ludnix

I find it distressing the way you're using the words "supposed to" and in a previous post "meant to be". These fish happen to live in the coral reefs, there is no reason to suggest that they are supposed to.

Well, they evolved to survive in the environment described, not our tanks, right? I would say it is more "supposed" to live in the wild than my living room...

ludnix · 10/04/2009, 01:57 AM

The fact they have evolved to live there would explain why they are there, but it doesn't suggest that they are supposed to be there.

lordofthereef · 10/04/2009, 03:02 AM

With that logic nothing is "supposed" to be anywhere, though I am sure that in the wild they play a far greater roll in the ecosystem than in our tanks (seeing as how we usually have to add non-natural mechanisms to our tanks to mimic said ecosystem). I think you are taking the words too literally myself.

romanr · 10/04/2009, 06:21 AM

For me, this hobby is all about entertaining me, period. Now, I get more entertainment out of happy fish and corals. I spend a lot of time and effort to provide a nice environment. Is it the wild? No, but like I said I'm not going to pretend to be some caring environmentalist. Humans keep pets for their amusement. I'm not apologizing.

blumoon reefers · 10/04/2009, 06:49 AM

Just to put it in perspective - you are feeling all this guilt after seeing them in an AQUARIUM. Nothing different than what we have in our homes, just on a much larger scale.

So to me, this seems a little over dramatic. I could understand your guilt if you had just come back from diving The Great Barrier Reef. IMHO, I will continue to provide the best care I can to the creatures that I have in my care. And be responsible about it.

jason18 · 10/04/2009, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ludnix

Nobody tell this guy what fishsticks are made of.

lol thats classic...

tufacody · 10/04/2009, 08:45 AM

The destruction we are causing our reefs in matters NOT related to the hobby is immense, so much so that some predict the oceans will collapse in our lifetime. There are signs of it everywhere. To me, this hobby is NOT just about entertainment, it is absolutely about learning to keep these animals in captive environments. It is irresponsible to not come to terms with that before starting out. Its only when people go into the hobby for pure entertainment value that you tend to see the abuse and misinformation.

noahm · 10/04/2009, 09:29 AM

There has been a lot learned from reefkeeping that is now being used to help the reefs that are damaged from other causes. That being said, LFS, wholesalers etc. NEED to understand that it is irresponsible to push tangs, triggers, and other large fish as well as fish with dismal captive lifespans. Just as some animals are required by certain jurisdictions to be housed in certain conditions, there could easily be marine society standards that LFS would have to comply with in order to be a member. These could pertain to how certain fish/corals are allowed to be purchased.
I think that as long as the fish are well taken care of and of appropriate size for the tank, they will be no more disappointed or harmed than an indoor cat stuck in a small apartment, or a person stuck in a small apartment that works all day in a cubicle and drives all day in car. How many people actually get out of their house for more than just a trip to another confined space?

precko · 10/04/2009, 09:39 AM

another way of looking at it, take tangs, most of them school in the wild for safety as many other species do, now because they are in large shoals they will strip an area of the reef of algae in no time so they then need to move on to the next area to eat, and so on, they only cover great distances in the wild because they need to, they dont do it because they enjoy swimming. To stay alive they need to eat constantly they need to keep moving to areas with algae, if in a home aquarium we can keep tangs well fed then they have no need to cover huge areas. Give it a decent amount of room (around 100 gallon for the smaller tangs) keep them well fed and without the risk of predators then I see no reason why we should feel guilty about keeping tangs in home aquaria.

The tangs you see in public aquaria are normally donated or brought in especially and they normally get larger specimens that rarely are available to the hobbyist, the tangs in most lfs are mainly juvenile and may take 5 or more years to get to the size of the ones in the public aquariums. Take a look at reefers who have had their tangs for a few years and im sure they will rival the size and colours of those you mentioned in the original post.

Peter Eichler · 10/04/2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noahm

There has been a lot learned from reefkeeping that is now being used to help the reefs that are damaged from other causes.

No there hasn't...

Lightsluvr · 10/04/2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

No there hasn't...

For once, I thought Peter surely must be wrong.... but no matter how I did online searches for reefkeeping contributions to research and saving the natrual reefs, I drew complete blanks...

LL

P.S. - for those of you who don't read lips, the above smilie is saying, "Holy spit!"

pmrossetti · 10/04/2009, 02:07 PM

I'm all for a middle ground. I support zoos and aquariums, etc. as long as they're run well. I was just questioning our home care of aquatic animals which is extremely difficult.
When I see all the marine fish at the LFS, I can't help but say to myself that 80-90% of them will probably be dead within 6 mos. That's not good folks. For you great fishkeepers that have them for years there are hundreds that just don't. I'm sure I'll get over it and set up my tank, it just haunts me. And please knock off the inane fish stick analogy. I hope you're better thinkers than that.

Cantonesefish · 10/04/2009, 02:40 PM

pm, what is your point? Are you just here to vent / ramble? There seems to be no discussion happening except for you posting the same thing over and over again. Are you trying to convince us into taking some sort of action?? If you don't have anything substantial to say, I would say just get over it.

pmrossetti · 10/04/2009, 03:27 PM

Thanks for your thoughts. Like the thread said. Asked for some cheering, that's all. You're too defensive. I wasn't criticizing anyone.

lougotzz · 10/04/2009, 03:59 PM

Of course our fish our POed. We are taking a tang out of the ocean, with miles of room to swim, and we stick it in a 4' tank. Thats why I laugh at the tang police when they get their panties in a bunch over a 4' tank, than say a 6' tank is what is acceptable. Its like, either way, that fish is not happy.

Than on the other side as stated before, our fish dont have to worry about predators, polution, lack of food, disease (figuring the hobbtist knows how to cure it), storms, ect.

So in a sense its bad, in a sense its good, depending on how you want to look at it. I look at it as its good. Fish arnt human beings that are used to sitting in a 5000 sq/ft house. I mean I think goldfish have a memory span of like 20 seconds? (that could be completely wrong, but I am sure ive heard that numerous times)

As far as depleting reefs, if people just did things like TBS, and bought aquacultured corals and fish, problem solved.

pmrossetti · 10/04/2009, 04:22 PM

Good message lougotzz. Positive stuff. Thank you.

redtop03 · 10/04/2009, 05:38 PM

this hobby has giving me a deeper appreciation or the natural reef,I too,try to provide my fish with the best care possible,all of my critters seem very happy....and at the rate that the natural reef is disappearing,we may be called on one day to help replenish or rebuild it....I think it's a great thing what we do,as most of these fish will never make it to adult before they get eat by a bigger fish in the wild.....I agree,it may not be the ideal environment for some of these fish,but I feel they have a better chance at a full life in a predator free environment with regular meals that they don't have to fight for like they would in the ocean.....I think the more people that are interested and join in this hobby,the greater the chance of more people trying to save the natural reef,which is a good reason to be in the hobby.....

10/04/2009, 01:57 AM	#29
ludnix Registered Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: California Posts: 3,031	The fact they have evolved to live there would explain why they are there, but it doesn't suggest that they are supposed to be there. __________________ -Eric Sutter Current Tank Info: 14g Biocube

10/04/2009, 06:21 AM	#31
romanr Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Ocala, Florida Posts: 1,568	For me, this hobby is all about entertaining me, period. Now, I get more entertainment out of happy fish and corals. I spend a lot of time and effort to provide a nice environment. Is it the wild? No, but like I said I'm not going to pretend to be some caring environmentalist. Humans keep pets for their amusement. I'm not apologizing. __________________ Raul Roman Marion Ocala Reef Enthusiasts (MORE) member Check us out on FB and RC. Current Tank Info: 150 DD cube mixed reef, 30G sump, Eshopps S-150 cone skimmer, 400W Radium MH, 156W Wavepoint T5, Internet accessible ACIII controller , Vortech MP10 w/ Icecap battery backup, Mini-Arctica chiller, Katalyst fueled reactor fed to Octopus BH800S skimmer

10/04/2009, 06:49 AM	#32
blumoon reefers Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 449	Just to put it in perspective - you are feeling all this guilt after seeing them in an AQUARIUM. Nothing different than what we have in our homes, just on a much larger scale. So to me, this seems a little over dramatic. I could understand your guilt if you had just come back from diving The Great Barrier Reef. IMHO, I will continue to provide the best care I can to the creatures that I have in my care. And be responsible about it. __________________ Chuck and Milissa Current Tank Info: 150 gal with 40b sump/fuge

10/04/2009, 09:39 AM	#36
precko Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 176	another way of looking at it, take tangs, most of them school in the wild for safety as many other species do, now because they are in large shoals they will strip an area of the reef of algae in no time so they then need to move on to the next area to eat, and so on, they only cover great distances in the wild because they need to, they dont do it because they enjoy swimming. To stay alive they need to eat constantly they need to keep moving to areas with algae, if in a home aquarium we can keep tangs well fed then they have no need to cover huge areas. Give it a decent amount of room (around 100 gallon for the smaller tangs) keep them well fed and without the risk of predators then I see no reason why we should feel guilty about keeping tangs in home aquaria. The tangs you see in public aquaria are normally donated or brought in especially and they normally get larger specimens that rarely are available to the hobbyist, the tangs in most lfs are mainly juvenile and may take 5 or more years to get to the size of the ones in the public aquariums. Take a look at reefers who have had their tangs for a few years and im sure they will rival the size and colours of those you mentioned in the original post. __________________ 36"x36"x24" (LxWxH) Rimless Zeovit display tank, Giesemann infiniti 250w hqi + 4x24w T5's, Vortech MP40w, Tunze 6105 and single-controller. 30"x20"x18" Sump tank, ATB medium cone skimmer, KZ zeovit reactor, Balling lite via a GHL-Profilux Independant 4 pump dosing unit, Tunze auto top off, Eheim 1262 return pump.

10/04/2009, 05:38 PM	#44
redtop03 moved slow Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Barbourville,Ky. Posts: 1,390	this hobby has giving me a deeper appreciation or the natural reef,I too,try to provide my fish with the best care possible,all of my critters seem very happy....and at the rate that the natural reef is disappearing,we may be called on one day to help replenish or rebuild it....I think it's a great thing what we do,as most of these fish will never make it to adult before they get eat by a bigger fish in the wild.....I agree,it may not be the ideal environment for some of these fish,but I feel they have a better chance at a full life in a predator free environment with regular meals that they don't have to fight for like they would in the ocean.....I think the more people that are interested and join in this hobby,the greater the chance of more people trying to save the natural reef,which is a good reason to be in the hobby..... __________________ Willie McDaries

10/04/2009, 01:03 AM	#27
BuddhaKiss Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Northern Va Posts: 1,068	For all intents and purposes, keeping pets in general is a selfish human act. I don't think you can get around that. Whether it's keeping hamsters, reptiles, even fish. Do birds really belong in a cage? It's very hard for us to truly replicate any of our pets natural environment in terms of space. All we can really do is make every attempt possible to give them the best life that we can. And although the space we provide our pets, fish included, will never be like it is in the wild, we also diminish some of the stresses that these fish have to deal with. As long as we are smart and diligent with our husbandry, our fish will never go hungry, our fish will never be eaten (although there still some knuckleheads out there that still keep lionfish with damsels), etc. I had a conversation a while back with some people who despised zoos. I love em, always have. But there argument was that it was cruel to keep such large animals as tigers, elephants, etc. in such a confined space. And I couldn't help but to agree. But at the same time, I see some value in zoos and even public aquariums, as they are usually the catalysts for some children (even me when I was a wee kid) to kick start my interest to science and education

10/04/2009, 03:02 AM	#30
lordofthereef One reef to rule them all Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Leominster, MA Posts: 5,299	With that logic nothing is "supposed" to be anywhere, though I am sure that in the wild they play a far greater roll in the ecosystem than in our tanks (seeing as how we usually have to add non-natural mechanisms to our tanks to mimic said ecosystem). I think you are taking the words too literally myself.

10/04/2009, 08:45 AM	#34
tufacody Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,890	The destruction we are causing our reefs in matters NOT related to the hobby is immense, so much so that some predict the oceans will collapse in our lifetime. There are signs of it everywhere. To me, this hobby is NOT just about entertainment, it is absolutely about learning to keep these animals in captive environments. It is irresponsible to not come to terms with that before starting out. Its only when people go into the hobby for pure entertainment value that you tend to see the abuse and misinformation.

10/04/2009, 09:29 AM	#35
noahm Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 2,736	There has been a lot learned from reefkeeping that is now being used to help the reefs that are damaged from other causes. That being said, LFS, wholesalers etc. NEED to understand that it is irresponsible to push tangs, triggers, and other large fish as well as fish with dismal captive lifespans. Just as some animals are required by certain jurisdictions to be housed in certain conditions, there could easily be marine society standards that LFS would have to comply with in order to be a member. These could pertain to how certain fish/corals are allowed to be purchased. I think that as long as the fish are well taken care of and of appropriate size for the tank, they will be no more disappointed or harmed than an indoor cat stuck in a small apartment, or a person stuck in a small apartment that works all day in a cubicle and drives all day in car. How many people actually get out of their house for more than just a trip to another confined space?

10/04/2009, 02:07 PM	#39
pmrossetti Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cali. Posts: 3,199	I'm all for a middle ground. I support zoos and aquariums, etc. as long as they're run well. I was just questioning our home care of aquatic animals which is extremely difficult. When I see all the marine fish at the LFS, I can't help but say to myself that 80-90% of them will probably be dead within 6 mos. That's not good folks. For you great fishkeepers that have them for years there are hundreds that just don't. I'm sure I'll get over it and set up my tank, it just haunts me. And please knock off the inane fish stick analogy. I hope you're better thinkers than that.

10/04/2009, 02:40 PM	#40
Cantonesefish with active cooling Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Such a place cannot be contained Posts: 818	pm, what is your point? Are you just here to vent / ramble? There seems to be no discussion happening except for you posting the same thing over and over again. Are you trying to convince us into taking some sort of action?? If you don't have anything substantial to say, I would say just get over it.

10/04/2009, 03:27 PM	#41
pmrossetti Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cali. Posts: 3,199	Thanks for your thoughts. Like the thread said. Asked for some cheering, that's all. You're too defensive. I wasn't criticizing anyone.

10/04/2009, 03:59 PM	#42
lougotzz Moved On Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,524	Of course our fish our POed. We are taking a tang out of the ocean, with miles of room to swim, and we stick it in a 4' tank. Thats why I laugh at the tang police when they get their panties in a bunch over a 4' tank, than say a 6' tank is what is acceptable. Its like, either way, that fish is not happy. Than on the other side as stated before, our fish dont have to worry about predators, polution, lack of food, disease (figuring the hobbtist knows how to cure it), storms, ect. So in a sense its bad, in a sense its good, depending on how you want to look at it. I look at it as its good. Fish arnt human beings that are used to sitting in a 5000 sq/ft house. I mean I think goldfish have a memory span of like 20 seconds? (that could be completely wrong, but I am sure ive heard that numerous times) As far as depleting reefs, if people just did things like TBS, and bought aquacultured corals and fish, problem solved.

10/04/2009, 04:22 PM	#43
pmrossetti Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Cali. Posts: 3,199	Good message lougotzz. Positive stuff. Thank you.